DERRY/LONDONDERRY
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Londonderry
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LDY to LON impossible :(
STN down to 3x week? At the very least they could put LTN times for the morning and STN for evenings. Nearly all the STN and LTN flights depart within the same hour as each other. Useless. We are going to have to start a petition to get this timetabling sorted and send it to RYR, but nobody there would listen i suppose.
If there is anyone out there reading this from RYR, for the love of god, and for the sake of many, many businessmen and women wanting a day return get a 2x daily to STN and a middle of the day LTN going pronto. If NOC can sustain it surely LDY can.
If EZY were operating the same routes from LDY, in fact lets be honest if any other airline on the planet was, the times of flights would be 1000000% better.
To end on a good note though, nice to see good PAX figures on ALC, and the return of the route next year
speedbirdATC
If there is anyone out there reading this from RYR, for the love of god, and for the sake of many, many businessmen and women wanting a day return get a 2x daily to STN and a middle of the day LTN going pronto. If NOC can sustain it surely LDY can.
If EZY were operating the same routes from LDY, in fact lets be honest if any other airline on the planet was, the times of flights would be 1000000% better.
To end on a good note though, nice to see good PAX figures on ALC, and the return of the route next year
speedbirdATC
Speedbird, according to RYR's timetables (don't bother looking at City of Derry website......they may get round to updating it before the clocks go forward again) state 4xSTN and 4xLTN. Not much better mind......
Join Date: Apr 2009
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First of all, Its Aer Arann!
liffy2A 1 Others 0
Arann Operated these routes with great success till Ryanair started to operated to Liverpool Birmigham and East mids
1 all.
Its yet another deal to get into bed with Ryanair . . . . . . Just as quick as they came they can pull out too . . . . .
liffy2A 1, Others 2.
The Airport in the years gone by should have been looking to attract more operators in the likes of Loganair, Flybe and AerArann.
liffy2A 1, Others 3.
Then there would be a regular service Daily with a timetable that would be better off for the region and business in the area
liffy2A 1, Others 4.
I think the Loganair Glasgow flight could have been the positioning of the aircraft into LDY to operate the PSO route
liffy2A 1, Others 5.
Well, at least you can spell Aer Arann. Thank's for that correction.
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Its not a scoring match!
Your facts are wrong, AerArann never operated a Dublin PSO before the present one.It was because of the competion they stopped MAN BHX. I do not know much about the history of City of Derry routes nor do I care. Second fact as said on the wikipedia version of City of Derry, Loganair pulled the Glasgow route as a result of the loss of the Dublin PSO.which shows they would have ceased the GLA way before they did only for the Dublin PSO because of the competion on the PIK route.They positioned the aircraft in from GLA to do it,hence having good fares which grew pax numbers. This is my 5 minutes research and already two facts. Derrys owners/council can have as many routes as they like to as many places as they like,hell the A380 fly by should have stopped and started a Hong Kong route. But it is a regional Airport,that should consentrate on regional routes. All the grants put into the airport was to develop the region as a whole, promote business , Not sun holidays and football charters what Ryanair do.I'm not Ryanair bashing they do a good job at what they do, but If you want a proper service daily London returns, MAN and EDI with proper time tables regional airlines would do it better 30 to 100 seats. With the exception of the PIK flight which is not great timing What Ryanair flights are business friendly? How many people are travelling from the region to Belfast to get early morning flight to LON because they have too for work? I bet alot. Thats my 2 cences. Maybe I'm right maybe I'm totally wrong, they do seem to be finding it hard to develop routes with other operators,plus Also more importantly make Money!
Your facts are wrong, AerArann never operated a Dublin PSO before the present one.It was because of the competion they stopped MAN BHX. I do not know much about the history of City of Derry routes nor do I care. Second fact as said on the wikipedia version of City of Derry, Loganair pulled the Glasgow route as a result of the loss of the Dublin PSO.which shows they would have ceased the GLA way before they did only for the Dublin PSO because of the competion on the PIK route.They positioned the aircraft in from GLA to do it,hence having good fares which grew pax numbers. This is my 5 minutes research and already two facts. Derrys owners/council can have as many routes as they like to as many places as they like,hell the A380 fly by should have stopped and started a Hong Kong route. But it is a regional Airport,that should consentrate on regional routes. All the grants put into the airport was to develop the region as a whole, promote business , Not sun holidays and football charters what Ryanair do.I'm not Ryanair bashing they do a good job at what they do, but If you want a proper service daily London returns, MAN and EDI with proper time tables regional airlines would do it better 30 to 100 seats. With the exception of the PIK flight which is not great timing What Ryanair flights are business friendly? How many people are travelling from the region to Belfast to get early morning flight to LON because they have too for work? I bet alot. Thats my 2 cences. Maybe I'm right maybe I'm totally wrong, they do seem to be finding it hard to develop routes with other operators,plus Also more importantly make Money!
Last edited by liffy2A; 27th Oct 2009 at 03:18.
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Liffy2A, AE is right that Aer Arann had this PSO route before losing it to Loganair several years ago. As a result they pulled out of Derry and cut all their routes to Britain as well as Dublin. However, RE regained this PSO route after the last competition. PSO routes throughout Ireland though will probably cease in 2011.
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So have those of you who believe that Aer Arann could offer a range of destinations from Ldy to the UK, worked out how many flights they would need to offer to get to this 1m pax mark? Are we basing these calculations on say an ATR42 at what load factor? So how many extra units would the airline need to acquire to offer the flights to generate 1m pax?
True Blue
True Blue
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Then why according to the AerArann website, When they awarded the LDY PSO they said it was a first for Aer Arann? typo? Aer Arann wins the majority of Public Service Obligation Routes Contracts
13th May - Aer Arann welcomes the announcement by the Minister for Transport that they have been awarded four of the six routes on offer in the PSO tender. The airline has won Derry-Dublin for the first time ever. It has also retained the Galway-Dublin, Sligo-Dublin and Donegal-Dublin routes. The contracts were awarded to Aer Arann following an open public tender process, conducted in accordance with EU Regulations.
Aer Arann's commitment to the development of the regional airports is further enhanced by the addition of this new Dublin-Derry service. The retention of the Galway, Sligo and Donegal services clearly reflects the success that Aer Arann has had in growing these routes and developing access to the regions.
Garry Cullen, Managing Director, Aer Arann said, "Aer Arann is delighted to win the Dublin-Derry tender, as well as retaining the Galway, Sligo and Donegal routes. We look forward to bringing the Aer Arann customer experience to this new route and to continuing to serve our valued customers on the Galway-Dublin, Donegal-Dublin and Sligo-Dublin routes. We wish to put on record our appreciation for the loyalty of our supporters on the Kerry-Dublin and Knock-Dublin routes over the past number of years."
Aer Arann will provide four daily return services on the Galway routes, and two daily return services on the Derry, Sligo and Donegal routes.
P.S they also retained the NOC after Cityjet declined the PSO.
13th May - Aer Arann welcomes the announcement by the Minister for Transport that they have been awarded four of the six routes on offer in the PSO tender. The airline has won Derry-Dublin for the first time ever. It has also retained the Galway-Dublin, Sligo-Dublin and Donegal-Dublin routes. The contracts were awarded to Aer Arann following an open public tender process, conducted in accordance with EU Regulations.
Aer Arann's commitment to the development of the regional airports is further enhanced by the addition of this new Dublin-Derry service. The retention of the Galway, Sligo and Donegal services clearly reflects the success that Aer Arann has had in growing these routes and developing access to the regions.
Garry Cullen, Managing Director, Aer Arann said, "Aer Arann is delighted to win the Dublin-Derry tender, as well as retaining the Galway, Sligo and Donegal routes. We look forward to bringing the Aer Arann customer experience to this new route and to continuing to serve our valued customers on the Galway-Dublin, Donegal-Dublin and Sligo-Dublin routes. We wish to put on record our appreciation for the loyalty of our supporters on the Kerry-Dublin and Knock-Dublin routes over the past number of years."
Aer Arann will provide four daily return services on the Galway routes, and two daily return services on the Derry, Sligo and Donegal routes.
P.S they also retained the NOC after Cityjet declined the PSO.
Last edited by liffy2A; 27th Oct 2009 at 22:54.
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True Blue,
I don't think anyone is suggesting getting rid of Ryanair to replace them with Aer Arann, merely that many of the routes out of LDY are too small to run a daily service with a 737 let alone a multi-frequency service.
LDY needs a second carrier in addition to Ryanair, to provide for these smaller routes and perhaps even to provide increased frequency on routes served by Ryanair, as was done on the Glasgow route until about a year ago.
Loganair passenger numbers to/from Glasgow actually increased following the arrival of Ryanair. Now this is counter intuitive, nevertheless that is what happened showing that LDY, Ryanair and which ever other carrier could all benefit from such an arrangement.
Liffy2a,
With regard to Aer Arann's operations at LDY, they did operate to Dublin from LDY prior to the Loganair PSO. It was a commercial operation prior to the introduction of the Derry-Dublin PSO in 2001:
Knock, Derry may get EU subsidy: ThePost.ie
They gained the DUB PSO in 2008:
City Of Derry Airport flight destinations from Derry Londonderry Donegal and Northwest Ireland
The Manchester and Birmingham routes were launched in June 2004:
Derry City Council - Aer Arann Manchester and Birmingham flights launched from City of Derry
But they had already dropped Brimingham in 2005 before Ryanair announced East Midlands though they were still operating to Manchester (but it also ceased before Liverpool commenced in 2006):
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport...e_Analysis.pdf
Ryanair - News : Ryanair announces 2 new routes from City of Derry to Liverpool and Nottingham East Midlands
I don't think anyone is suggesting getting rid of Ryanair to replace them with Aer Arann, merely that many of the routes out of LDY are too small to run a daily service with a 737 let alone a multi-frequency service.
LDY needs a second carrier in addition to Ryanair, to provide for these smaller routes and perhaps even to provide increased frequency on routes served by Ryanair, as was done on the Glasgow route until about a year ago.
Loganair passenger numbers to/from Glasgow actually increased following the arrival of Ryanair. Now this is counter intuitive, nevertheless that is what happened showing that LDY, Ryanair and which ever other carrier could all benefit from such an arrangement.
Liffy2a,
With regard to Aer Arann's operations at LDY, they did operate to Dublin from LDY prior to the Loganair PSO. It was a commercial operation prior to the introduction of the Derry-Dublin PSO in 2001:
Knock, Derry may get EU subsidy: ThePost.ie
They gained the DUB PSO in 2008:
City Of Derry Airport flight destinations from Derry Londonderry Donegal and Northwest Ireland
The Manchester and Birmingham routes were launched in June 2004:
Derry City Council - Aer Arann Manchester and Birmingham flights launched from City of Derry
But they had already dropped Brimingham in 2005 before Ryanair announced East Midlands though they were still operating to Manchester (but it also ceased before Liverpool commenced in 2006):
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport...e_Analysis.pdf
Ryanair - News : Ryanair announces 2 new routes from City of Derry to Liverpool and Nottingham East Midlands
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BBC NEWS | Northern Ireland | Foyle and West | Council's income down by £200,000
What a burden on the rate payer
What a burden on the rate payer
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Thanks for clearing that up AE. I've flown between Cork and Derry many times over the years via Dublin and forgot that the original Aer Arann Derry flights were a commercial service like they have always been between Cork and Dublin and Cork and Belfast.
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What a burden on the rate payer
In 2008 Belfast Zoo lost £2.1 million attracting 290,000 visitors. (£7.24 per visitor)
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In 2008 City of Derry airport lost £3.5 million with 438,000 passengers. (£7.99 per passenger)
In 2008 Belfast Zoo lost £2.1 million attracting 290,000 visitors. (£7.24 per visitor)
In 2008 Belfast Zoo lost £2.1 million attracting 290,000 visitors. (£7.24 per visitor)
Londonderry Council area population 109,100 = £32 per head
Belfast City Council population 268,300 = £7.82 per head
These are real costs per head, your figures are meaningless as a cost comparison.
I don't understand why you care Gate? You're based in Antrim. Why does it affect you?
Derry airport is no threat to Aldergrove field and accompanying shed. Go back to worrying about BHD, where their share of the Belfast market is going up (whilst BFS losing numbers on nearly all its routes, BHD is gaining numbers).
EZY testing the water at BHD should be of more concern to you than how much the Derry City Council rates payer is contributing to the running of the airport. Steps are being taken to address this issue, and really until further developments occur with this, there's no point you banging on about it.
Derry airport is no threat to Aldergrove field and accompanying shed. Go back to worrying about BHD, where their share of the Belfast market is going up (whilst BFS losing numbers on nearly all its routes, BHD is gaining numbers).
EZY testing the water at BHD should be of more concern to you than how much the Derry City Council rates payer is contributing to the running of the airport. Steps are being taken to address this issue, and really until further developments occur with this, there's no point you banging on about it.
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So the millions, 18 was it, spent on adding a little bit on the end of the runway and evicting people from their homes, was better spent on that as opposed to the health service, schools etc? That would affect you, regardless of where you lived and as it was tax payers money, yes some of that was Gate 22 tax money. Money spent by Government doesn't grow on trees, it's taken off workers in the first place.
True Blue
True Blue
Yeah, cos the Irish Gov were gonna spend money on schools etc etc in NI.
Maybe it should've been spent on a well utilised motorway round Ballymena, or a shopping centre in Belfast......oh, hang on......
Sorry folks, but I can't take you guys seriously, having read your spoutings on the Belfast thread. Maybe we could build a bridge over Lough Neagh, making access to BHD easier for all, then we could build a race track at Adldergrove, shutting the place down?
Oh, and I'm sure the people of Derry pay taxes too.
Maybe it should've been spent on a well utilised motorway round Ballymena, or a shopping centre in Belfast......oh, hang on......
Sorry folks, but I can't take you guys seriously, having read your spoutings on the Belfast thread. Maybe we could build a bridge over Lough Neagh, making access to BHD easier for all, then we could build a race track at Adldergrove, shutting the place down?
Oh, and I'm sure the people of Derry pay taxes too.
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I don't understand why you care Gate? You're based in Antrim. Why does it affect you?
The fact is your airport should be closed-it doesn't make money, your council is pumping in millions of pounds of government money. Effectively you are paying FR £7.99 for each passenger and the Dublin government are paying probably for each RE passenger. This surely is not in the spirit of fair competition with privately owned airports down in Belfast.
"Spirit of competition"? Hahahhahahahahaha! You crack me up. I've been reading your version of the "Spirit of competition" on the Belfast thread for some time, and your version STINKS!
I tell you what, I wish it was "MY" airport. I'd change its name to Derry-Donegal International, market it properly as the gateway to the NW of Ireland, and look forward to not taking ANY money off ANY government to subsidise it (but taking a few 100k pax away from Lough Neagh Int ;-)).
As it is, even Europe recognised LDY's unique position, allowing the funding to develop the facility to come from both governments. Underinvestment in infrastructure for many years, meant the area suffered economically. Some steps (and not just the airport) are now being taken to address that.
Unfortunately it seems there are still those in NI who believe Derry, should have nothing. Pity.
I tell you what, I wish it was "MY" airport. I'd change its name to Derry-Donegal International, market it properly as the gateway to the NW of Ireland, and look forward to not taking ANY money off ANY government to subsidise it (but taking a few 100k pax away from Lough Neagh Int ;-)).
As it is, even Europe recognised LDY's unique position, allowing the funding to develop the facility to come from both governments. Underinvestment in infrastructure for many years, meant the area suffered economically. Some steps (and not just the airport) are now being taken to address that.
Unfortunately it seems there are still those in NI who believe Derry, should have nothing. Pity.
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Belfast International Airport started life as a government owned facility. Therefore Derry Airport's position is neither unique nor unfair.
Furthermore there are several airports owned by local authorities in Britain, most notably the very successful Manchester Airport. Indeed as BAA was formerly a government owned company, Gatwick, Heathrow, Glasgow, Edinburgh, et al, were publicly owned.
Anyway no one forced anyone to buy either of the two Belfast airports. They did so because they were profit making and providing a good return on investment. Now owning a private Airport does not mean they own the people. The people can vote with their feet and do in their 100,000s.
Many a business loses money at certain periods but so long as the business is not insolvent there is nothing illegal in continuing to trade until such point as the business turns to profitability. The £7.99 lost to each passenger is just a lost leader pending a future date when the facility is profitable, like Tesco selling baked beans for 7p.
And as to losses per head of population, this is a problem. After the local government reorganisation the people of Strabane will be paying for the losses of a facility which is actually located in Limavady council area who will pay nothing. Hardly equitable. It just goes to show that the losses should be divided over a greater number of heads, namely the entire population of the North. Afterall the 400,000 passengers pay almost as much in airport tax as the airport losses.
Furthermore there are several airports owned by local authorities in Britain, most notably the very successful Manchester Airport. Indeed as BAA was formerly a government owned company, Gatwick, Heathrow, Glasgow, Edinburgh, et al, were publicly owned.
Anyway no one forced anyone to buy either of the two Belfast airports. They did so because they were profit making and providing a good return on investment. Now owning a private Airport does not mean they own the people. The people can vote with their feet and do in their 100,000s.
Many a business loses money at certain periods but so long as the business is not insolvent there is nothing illegal in continuing to trade until such point as the business turns to profitability. The £7.99 lost to each passenger is just a lost leader pending a future date when the facility is profitable, like Tesco selling baked beans for 7p.
And as to losses per head of population, this is a problem. After the local government reorganisation the people of Strabane will be paying for the losses of a facility which is actually located in Limavady council area who will pay nothing. Hardly equitable. It just goes to show that the losses should be divided over a greater number of heads, namely the entire population of the North. Afterall the 400,000 passengers pay almost as much in airport tax as the airport losses.