DERRY/LONDONDERRY
Join Date: Apr 2009
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BFS vs BHD
Despite BFS being by far the biggest airport in NI, despite the huge growth in continental flights following the route development fund and East European immigration, despite Aer Lingus choosing BFS as its new base, and despite the civil service contract going to Aer Lingus, it is clear that the tide has been runinng against BFS for a while.
Look at growth experienced in BHD over the last few years. Now while I have pondered Ryanair flights lost at LDY and have seen the same routes reappear with multiple daily frequencies at BHD, it is clear that most of the passengers for these flights are coming from the BFS catchment area.
I have long suspected that despite BFS being called Belfast International Airport, that most people from Belfast don't really regard it as Belfast's airport and have little love for it and would prefer to travel from BHD (if it wasn't for problems due to the flight cap, night flight restrictions and runway length etc). I mean look at the dirty track that masquerades as a road to BFS: if it was truly considered Belfast's main airport it would be a motorway by now . . . .
LDY Continental Flights?
Aer Lingus have now pulled 5 of their existing 9 routes having previously axed other routes. It was entirely predictable that something would have to give, Aer Lingus inexplicably choosing to operate the same routes as Easyjet. They should have opened at LDY!
But with the latest flight cuts there is now no flight from N.I. to Rome and that despite no competition on the route. And even with the seeming success (thus far) of the LDY-Alicante route, what are the chances now of European flights from LDY to say Paris (one of the Aer Lingus axed routes) if BFS is having problems?
Are we seeing a shift in power up the road?
Look at growth experienced in BHD over the last few years. Now while I have pondered Ryanair flights lost at LDY and have seen the same routes reappear with multiple daily frequencies at BHD, it is clear that most of the passengers for these flights are coming from the BFS catchment area.
I have long suspected that despite BFS being called Belfast International Airport, that most people from Belfast don't really regard it as Belfast's airport and have little love for it and would prefer to travel from BHD (if it wasn't for problems due to the flight cap, night flight restrictions and runway length etc). I mean look at the dirty track that masquerades as a road to BFS: if it was truly considered Belfast's main airport it would be a motorway by now . . . .
LDY Continental Flights?
Aer Lingus have now pulled 5 of their existing 9 routes having previously axed other routes. It was entirely predictable that something would have to give, Aer Lingus inexplicably choosing to operate the same routes as Easyjet. They should have opened at LDY!
But with the latest flight cuts there is now no flight from N.I. to Rome and that despite no competition on the route. And even with the seeming success (thus far) of the LDY-Alicante route, what are the chances now of European flights from LDY to say Paris (one of the Aer Lingus axed routes) if BFS is having problems?
Well, the CAA stats for August continue to show declines in BFS-LON, but increases in BHD-LON.
The Derry-LTN/STN flights had very good loads again. The rest of the routes (bar BHX, around 7900), aren't available yet.
The Derry-LTN/STN flights had very good loads again. The rest of the routes (bar BHX, around 7900), aren't available yet.
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Yeah, better loads on fewer flights with less passengers. LDY-STN passengers down 41% (because there are about half the flights).
How come the only statistics available are for STN LTN and BHX? I mean all the other flights are provided by the same airline (Ryanair) so surely should be available at the same time. Who compiles this stuff? I would have thought the airport not the airline so how come only half of it is available?
How come the only statistics available are for STN LTN and BHX? I mean all the other flights are provided by the same airline (Ryanair) so surely should be available at the same time. Who compiles this stuff? I would have thought the airport not the airline so how come only half of it is available?
Yeah, but combined traffic to LON is down 12.5% or thereabouts, with three fewer flights a week. Considering it is now almost impossible to do a day trip to LDY-London on business (for example), I'm surprised loads are holding as they are.
As I understand it, the CAA stats come directly from each individual airport. Derry has not submitted its figures for routes yet. However, LTN, STN and BHX have. Hence the info on traffic from each of those airports to LDY.
As I understand it, the CAA stats come directly from each individual airport. Derry has not submitted its figures for routes yet. However, LTN, STN and BHX have. Hence the info on traffic from each of those airports to LDY.
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I see what you're saying, that makes some sense. But it's a bit of laugh. How long could it possibly take LDY to add up its passengers?
I had wanted to see the Alicante loadings. Looks like I'll have to wait another week.
I had wanted to see the Alicante loadings. Looks like I'll have to wait another week.
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ALC stats
Hi,
You can also get the ALC stats from the Aena site: Estadísticas - Aeropuertos Españoles y Navegación Aérea - Aena.es
For LDY-ALC they look pretty good (no idea about the all-important yields though).
Jun: 2,439 / 16 = 81%
Jul: 3,044 / 18 = 89%
Aug: 2,995 / 18 = 88%
2009 so far: 8,478 / 52 = 86%
The loads so far are in line with Ryanair's average for international flights to and from Spain, which for a new route looks encouraging. As an aside, the loads on LDY-ALC are just behind those for NOC-ALC, but ahead of NQY-ALC which is now in its second year.
You can also get the ALC stats from the Aena site: Estadísticas - Aeropuertos Españoles y Navegación Aérea - Aena.es
For LDY-ALC they look pretty good (no idea about the all-important yields though).
Jun: 2,439 / 16 = 81%
Jul: 3,044 / 18 = 89%
Aug: 2,995 / 18 = 88%
2009 so far: 8,478 / 52 = 86%
The loads so far are in line with Ryanair's average for international flights to and from Spain, which for a new route looks encouraging. As an aside, the loads on LDY-ALC are just behind those for NOC-ALC, but ahead of NQY-ALC which is now in its second year.
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Hey, thats a good website, some of the reports are better than the equivalent available from the CAA, but of course it does help if you can speak Spanish.
You can separate departures and arrivals so on the LDY-ALC route you get (from the LDY perspective):
......................JUNE...............JULY.............AUGUST...............TOTALS
DEPARTURES.....1459...96%.......1600...94%....1405...83%..........4464...91%
ARRIVALS...........980...65%.......1444...85%....1590...93%..........4014...82%
TOTALS.............2439...81%......3044...89%....2995...88%..........8478...86%
Interesting but no real surprises.
1) The arrivals figure for June (ie: from ALC to LDY) shows that the route is indeed an outward route taking people to holiday in Spain rather than taking Spaniards to holiday here in the rain.
2) By the end of August, 450 more people had departed than arrived, so presuming that these people are returning rather than emigrating, then these arrivals will be reflected in September and October's arrival figures which should be higher than departures.
3) The above pattern could have been predicted from the differences in flight prices on the Ryanair website, that Arrivals were cheaper than departures in June and July while they were more expensive in August and September.
4) The October loadings, particularly the outwards loadings, will obviously suffer due to the ending of the seaonal flights in the same way that inward loadings suffered in June at the start of the season. I'm not sure it made any sense to end the flights on October 22nd since Halloween is a huge festival in Derry and would have been the one chance to get inward visitors, thus filling the flights and increasing loadings for October.
5) Ignoring available seats on the first two inward flights in June, as presumably these flights would have been fairly empty, gives a much more respectable inward loading of 86%. Obviously Ryanair would not be ignoring these flights while calculating yeilds etc, but it maybe indicates that the seaon could be successfully extended into May and maybe April (ie: from Easter onwards) rather than October which seems out of season. But in any case a seasonal flight will always suffer from low loadings at the beginning and end of the season. Not sure the demand is there for an all year service.
You can separate departures and arrivals so on the LDY-ALC route you get (from the LDY perspective):
......................JUNE...............JULY.............AUGUST...............TOTALS
DEPARTURES.....1459...96%.......1600...94%....1405...83%..........4464...91%
ARRIVALS...........980...65%.......1444...85%....1590...93%..........4014...82%
TOTALS.............2439...81%......3044...89%....2995...88%..........8478...86%
Interesting but no real surprises.
1) The arrivals figure for June (ie: from ALC to LDY) shows that the route is indeed an outward route taking people to holiday in Spain rather than taking Spaniards to holiday here in the rain.
2) By the end of August, 450 more people had departed than arrived, so presuming that these people are returning rather than emigrating, then these arrivals will be reflected in September and October's arrival figures which should be higher than departures.
3) The above pattern could have been predicted from the differences in flight prices on the Ryanair website, that Arrivals were cheaper than departures in June and July while they were more expensive in August and September.
4) The October loadings, particularly the outwards loadings, will obviously suffer due to the ending of the seaonal flights in the same way that inward loadings suffered in June at the start of the season. I'm not sure it made any sense to end the flights on October 22nd since Halloween is a huge festival in Derry and would have been the one chance to get inward visitors, thus filling the flights and increasing loadings for October.
5) Ignoring available seats on the first two inward flights in June, as presumably these flights would have been fairly empty, gives a much more respectable inward loading of 86%. Obviously Ryanair would not be ignoring these flights while calculating yeilds etc, but it maybe indicates that the seaon could be successfully extended into May and maybe April (ie: from Easter onwards) rather than October which seems out of season. But in any case a seasonal flight will always suffer from low loadings at the beginning and end of the season. Not sure the demand is there for an all year service.
Join Date: Jul 2009
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Ryanair Timetabling
Recently the Stansted flight had resumed its daily routine, but out of nowhere it has returned to 4x week.
Also i had myself booked on a few Ryanair flights during November. I had booked these about 3 weeks ago. Inside that time they have changed the frequency of those flights and the flight times. There was originally an evening service to STN departing LDY at 21.25, that has now gone as has the early Sunday morning service to PIK. Thankfully LDY to LPL has gone daily again
What is going on???
Also i had myself booked on a few Ryanair flights during November. I had booked these about 3 weeks ago. Inside that time they have changed the frequency of those flights and the flight times. There was originally an evening service to STN departing LDY at 21.25, that has now gone as has the early Sunday morning service to PIK. Thankfully LDY to LPL has gone daily again
What is going on???
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But at least Glasgow is back to a daily service and the time doesn't change from day to day. Liverpool daily also, but Brimingham now only 4 per week as are Luton and Stansted. What is going on indeed!!!!
In a previous post I had questioned whether being a base really mattered in terms of route development as LDY had more routes than BHD despite it being a base. I've definitely change my mind. Not being a base means fitting your timetable into the availability of other airport's aircraft. It is perhaps also in part why BHD has greater frequency on its fewer routes.
Perhaps it explains the crazy timetabling at LDY, axing successful services to STN that at one stage carried 155K p.a., wierd flight times that get you into Glasgow after midnight having nearly missed the last train from PIK, replacing EMA with BHX and then chopping flights, not getting flights to obvious places like EDI and MAN.
None of this assists with route development and so damages the airport whose passenger numbers have consequently fallen 30%. Perhaps Ryanair have different reasons for the above and to be fair to them they are the only airline that has shown any sort of commitment to LDY, but I can't help but feeling that until LDY gets a base that things will not improve.
Hopefully now that the runway extension has been completed and hopefully if the ALC route has been a success, then the airport will soon become a base. It couldn't happen too soon!
In a previous post I had questioned whether being a base really mattered in terms of route development as LDY had more routes than BHD despite it being a base. I've definitely change my mind. Not being a base means fitting your timetable into the availability of other airport's aircraft. It is perhaps also in part why BHD has greater frequency on its fewer routes.
Perhaps it explains the crazy timetabling at LDY, axing successful services to STN that at one stage carried 155K p.a., wierd flight times that get you into Glasgow after midnight having nearly missed the last train from PIK, replacing EMA with BHX and then chopping flights, not getting flights to obvious places like EDI and MAN.
None of this assists with route development and so damages the airport whose passenger numbers have consequently fallen 30%. Perhaps Ryanair have different reasons for the above and to be fair to them they are the only airline that has shown any sort of commitment to LDY, but I can't help but feeling that until LDY gets a base that things will not improve.
Hopefully now that the runway extension has been completed and hopefully if the ALC route has been a success, then the airport will soon become a base. It couldn't happen too soon!
I think the STN flight being butchered is more to do with RYR's grievance with STN's charges. They ground a lot of flights from STN through the winter. Why LTN can't go daily, or why EI haven't jumped in with a daily Gatwick is beyond me.
Ah well. One of two things will happen. RYR or someone else (God know who) will get their act together and actually support the airport properly, with decent frequencies on decent routes......or it will shut.
Ah well. One of two things will happen. RYR or someone else (God know who) will get their act together and actually support the airport properly, with decent frequencies on decent routes......or it will shut.
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Won't shut, can't shut. It's too important to the local area and there is already £70 million or so invested in terms of infrastructure and subvention. OK, so that is no reason to throw good money after bad, but the rationale that prompted the council to open in the first place is still there: that this area needs an airport and that one day it will be sucessful.
Interestingly while everyone views the airport as a failure due to the £3-4 million annual subvention, street sweeping costs the council £2 million per year and that is just an additional charge on top of waste disposal for those people who cannot be bothered to use the bins provided. Environmental services, household rubbish collection, the amenity sites, etc, all have their own costs.
But look at the language that is used: street sweeping "costs" money while the airport "loses" money. Perhaps if we started to view the annual subvention to the airport as the "cost" of having an airport rather than a "loss" then people might be more supportive. Afterall what does £2 million wasted on street sweeping get us - a totally unnecessary charge imposed on the majority by a minority who will not adhere to the law and have no social conscience or respect for their own community.
Maybe we should started talking instead about street sweeping "losses" and airport "costs".
Interestingly while everyone views the airport as a failure due to the £3-4 million annual subvention, street sweeping costs the council £2 million per year and that is just an additional charge on top of waste disposal for those people who cannot be bothered to use the bins provided. Environmental services, household rubbish collection, the amenity sites, etc, all have their own costs.
But look at the language that is used: street sweeping "costs" money while the airport "loses" money. Perhaps if we started to view the annual subvention to the airport as the "cost" of having an airport rather than a "loss" then people might be more supportive. Afterall what does £2 million wasted on street sweeping get us - a totally unnecessary charge imposed on the majority by a minority who will not adhere to the law and have no social conscience or respect for their own community.
Maybe we should started talking instead about street sweeping "losses" and airport "costs".
Last edited by Amelia Earhart; 2nd Oct 2009 at 20:40.
Nice sentiment. However, if your figures are right, and I have no reason to doubt them, that's a lot of money for 8 flights a week to London, and a handful to Liverpool, Prestwick and Birmingham.
A complete change in the attitudes of people in the NW to THEIR airport is required for anything to improve. As the former CE of Ilex said "Derry suffers from a lack of civic pride". Too true. Both the cleaning bill, and the underutilisation of the airport are evidence for this.
More fundamentally, as I said before, Derry airport putting all its eggs in the Ryanair basket was probably a bad idea. A carrier with smaller planes would no doubt have more routes with better frequencies.
A complete change in the attitudes of people in the NW to THEIR airport is required for anything to improve. As the former CE of Ilex said "Derry suffers from a lack of civic pride". Too true. Both the cleaning bill, and the underutilisation of the airport are evidence for this.
More fundamentally, as I said before, Derry airport putting all its eggs in the Ryanair basket was probably a bad idea. A carrier with smaller planes would no doubt have more routes with better frequencies.
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While LDY is totally at the mercy of Ryanair, and god forbid Ryanair ever decided to leave, your statement that the airport has put all its eggs in one basket presupposes there was an alternative basket which I don't think was ever the case.
The airport opened in 1979 and for 20 years really only had one carrier, namely Loganair, whose focus was on Scotland. Accordingly they were only interested in flying to and from Scotland (and to Dublin when offered a huge PSO contract). Now while I feel it was disappointing that Loganair only ever offered a Glasgow route and didn't consider an Edinburgh route which I believe would have been equally successful given the equally large passenger pool from Northern Ireland, nevertheless they did increase the GLA flights to 2 daily but subsequently reduced it to 1 daily.
Flybe operated a feeder service to BHD for a few years, but never offered direct flights. Aer Lingus did similar to DUB.
Macair, based themselves at the airport, operated to Edinburgh and Birmingham and then went bust within two months. (Thanks a bunch Derry! If they had choosen BHD instead they'd probably still be in business.)
So until Ryanair arrived there wasn't any eggs and only one basket.
I agree that smaller aircraft with improved frequencies and more routes might be more useful, particularly for business travellers, but even with that the airport probably wouldn't have as many passengers as it currently does. Loganair only carried at their peak about 20K pax p.a. to GLA. Multiply that by 10 or 12 for the multi-million-plus pax p.a. airports in the UK and you still only have half the passengers currently carried.
Notwithstanding low airport fees generated by Ryanair contracts, it will ultimately be passenger numbers that generate income. Even with a niche operator, it would still be necessary to have Ryanair providing the "heavy lift" to have decent passenger numbers.
On the other hand, losses at the airport have risen with Ryanair passenger numbers without any explanation to the local rate payers of why this should be so or even at what point costs start reducing let alone the break even point. There in lies the conundrum. Do the rate payers want an important "loss making" airport or local "profitable" airport? As they say in business, turnover is vanity, profit is sanity. Personally I must be vain.
The airport opened in 1979 and for 20 years really only had one carrier, namely Loganair, whose focus was on Scotland. Accordingly they were only interested in flying to and from Scotland (and to Dublin when offered a huge PSO contract). Now while I feel it was disappointing that Loganair only ever offered a Glasgow route and didn't consider an Edinburgh route which I believe would have been equally successful given the equally large passenger pool from Northern Ireland, nevertheless they did increase the GLA flights to 2 daily but subsequently reduced it to 1 daily.
Flybe operated a feeder service to BHD for a few years, but never offered direct flights. Aer Lingus did similar to DUB.
Macair, based themselves at the airport, operated to Edinburgh and Birmingham and then went bust within two months. (Thanks a bunch Derry! If they had choosen BHD instead they'd probably still be in business.)
So until Ryanair arrived there wasn't any eggs and only one basket.
I agree that smaller aircraft with improved frequencies and more routes might be more useful, particularly for business travellers, but even with that the airport probably wouldn't have as many passengers as it currently does. Loganair only carried at their peak about 20K pax p.a. to GLA. Multiply that by 10 or 12 for the multi-million-plus pax p.a. airports in the UK and you still only have half the passengers currently carried.
Notwithstanding low airport fees generated by Ryanair contracts, it will ultimately be passenger numbers that generate income. Even with a niche operator, it would still be necessary to have Ryanair providing the "heavy lift" to have decent passenger numbers.
On the other hand, losses at the airport have risen with Ryanair passenger numbers without any explanation to the local rate payers of why this should be so or even at what point costs start reducing let alone the break even point. There in lies the conundrum. Do the rate payers want an important "loss making" airport or local "profitable" airport? As they say in business, turnover is vanity, profit is sanity. Personally I must be vain.
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Maybe the problem is that there just isn't the demand to sustain the sort of operation you dream of. Carriers come and carriers go, that should tell you a lot. You see, one question has never been properly addressed, why does a country the size of NI, with a population of about 1.7m, need 3 airports? All wanting to be international airports. Two wanting to be FR bases, how many miles apart? All that has happened over the last few years is that the service from our airports here to UK, where there is competition, has become fractured, with a poor service to most. Recently I had to go to Bristol, so I had to use EZY out. But now EZY has only 2 flights per day, they used to have 3. I could have come home FR, but my car was at Bfs. So I ended coming home from Lhr. That is the sort of progress we are getting here, but so many seem to have their eyes closed to what the current competition between airports is doing. And then we wonder why about 1m go via Dublin. Because so many of the services offered from NI are token.
A lot of people need to wake up and smell the coffee, before it is too late.
True Blue
A lot of people need to wake up and smell the coffee, before it is too late.
True Blue
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Derry airport serves people from the northwest of the country and not just ni.
People in Donegal are just as likely to use the airport as much as people from Derry. The government in Dublin recently financed the extension of the runway as they recognize the importance of the airport to facilitate investment and development in the northwest of Ireland of which Derry is the natural hub.
People in Donegal are just as likely to use the airport as much as people from Derry. The government in Dublin recently financed the extension of the runway as they recognize the importance of the airport to facilitate investment and development in the northwest of Ireland of which Derry is the natural hub.
True Blue.....you came home via LHR? You nuts? FR to BHD, then a taxi to BFS to get your car? Damn sight cheaper (and quicker) than a First Great Western from Temple Meads to Paddington, then out to LHR.
As for sustainable operations, only BFS in NI dropped double-digit % in passengers during the summer. Perhaps the demand for an operation miles from major population centres is waning. That would explain EZY dropping a rotation to BRS, and RYR adding one.
The demand for services from Derry is there. Perhaps RYR isn't the right operator to service that demand.
As for sustainable operations, only BFS in NI dropped double-digit % in passengers during the summer. Perhaps the demand for an operation miles from major population centres is waning. That would explain EZY dropping a rotation to BRS, and RYR adding one.
The demand for services from Derry is there. Perhaps RYR isn't the right operator to service that demand.
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To get to Lhr from Bristol you do not need to go via Paddington and it was certainly cheaper than a taxi Bhd to Bfs. Again you all refuse to accept the main point, fragmentation of services. And I ask a question that none of you answered in your rush to attack me, where else in the world does a country our size have 3 airports, all wanting international status? Tell me. And why in other countries are people happy to travel to an airport, here we all want one in our own town.
True Blue
True Blue
Cheaper than £25? Quicker too? Doubt it somehow.
Economics will dictate how many airports survive the current downturn in global aviation. Not people who fear for their favourite airfield, cos it's losing services to a nearby (more accessible) airport.
The Government's recent white paper assessing the need for airport development a few years back highlighted the propensity for people from NI to fly. It also recognised that LDY could merrily grow to 1 million pax a year by 2020. Perhaps optimistic in the current climate, but I'd imagine the people who carried out the study know a bit more about these matters than you, or I.
Economics will dictate how many airports survive the current downturn in global aviation. Not people who fear for their favourite airfield, cos it's losing services to a nearby (more accessible) airport.
The Government's recent white paper assessing the need for airport development a few years back highlighted the propensity for people from NI to fly. It also recognised that LDY could merrily grow to 1 million pax a year by 2020. Perhaps optimistic in the current climate, but I'd imagine the people who carried out the study know a bit more about these matters than you, or I.
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Maybe the problem is that there just isn't the demand to sustain the sort of operation you dream of. Carriers come and carriers go . . .
Yes Macair came and went bust but that's the only one and you cannot draw a conclusion about an airport from the failure of a fledgling airline. My point is that the airport for whatever reason have singularly failed to attract services. I think the size of the two Belfast airports has stiffled, not demand from LDY, but supply at LDY, as the Belfast light shines brighter to new operators while existing operators won't set up in competition to themselves.
I agree that fragmentation isn't helpful but implicit in this statement I feel is always the thought that LDY should therefore close, that because it is council run it is in some way less legitimate, and that the annual council subvention is somehow cheating, despite the fact that BFS started life as a government owned facility.
Don't forget that LDY also feels the effect of fragmented services. LDY lost EMA to BHD. But having had the service first does not entitle LDY to passengers who if given a choice would prefer to use another airport. The same therefore obviously applies to BFS and BHD with regard to passengers would would prefer to use LDY.
So in summary, to provide services to as many people as possible as geographically close as possible it would be necessary to close one of the two airports that are beside one another. So which one would you suggest? BFS or BHD?