British Airways Incident at Johannesburg
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I very much doubt he will get away with it whether he is demoted/sacked or anything else and yes 4 people were injured and thankfully no-one was killed. That said, the merciless slating on here by some who are holding themselves up as faultless paragons of virtue, when even they don't know the facts here yet is galling.
Even the plates make no reference to wing tip clearance restrictions on that taxiway. If the Skipper thought he was on the correct taxiway he would be unlikely to think he was about to clout a building in any case.
Even the plates make no reference to wing tip clearance restrictions on that taxiway. If the Skipper thought he was on the correct taxiway he would be unlikely to think he was about to clout a building in any case.
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Maybe we should stop worrying about the pilot issues in this incident and take a closer look at the layout of FAJS and this taxiway in particular.
This junction has been an accident waiting to happen for many years, the hazard is known but nothing has been done to improve it. It is unsafe by design.
The correct route bends to the left, the wrong route is straight on. A simple reallignment could eliminate the straight on part and create a clear left/right choice.
This junction has been an accident waiting to happen for many years, the hazard is known but nothing has been done to improve it. It is unsafe by design.
The correct route bends to the left, the wrong route is straight on. A simple reallignment could eliminate the straight on part and create a clear left/right choice.
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Neila83 grow up 
BA are ace. They made a ( pretty big ! ) mistake, now go and sit on Wisden's keyboard and wait for the professionals to discover why they ( and probably others ) made those mistakes.
Oh and happy holidays !
BA are ace. They made a ( pretty big ! ) mistake, now go and sit on Wisden's keyboard and wait for the professionals to discover why they ( and probably others ) made those mistakes.
Oh and happy holidays !
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So if I've got this right, pilots need more automation? Because that's what you seem to be asking for. Apparently they have too many tasks and might need to look down, so they need more lights and computers to guide them. Phew, good job the industry is going the right way, I had the impression you guys HATE automation dependency. Of course you don't! After the Asiana discussion I assumed all pilots outside Asia could do absolutely everything without a processor in sight. You see how ridiculous the automation discussion looks now when suddenly you're all begging for more help to taxi? It is you guys who need to grow up thank you. Ad yes, I have made my decision, as I'm sure many have after reading the attitude on here, I'm as likely to fly BA as I am Air France, sad as I am to say it. And that, is the real result of the attitude you guys show, and after this year, it's probably thousands thinking the same, so I would take it seriously.
But a crew that made a mistake landing are hung, drawn and quatered. And yes, it is racism, because everyone was very quick to make excuses for the fire crew, who's job it is to save people, and who should be trained to deal with complex emergencies.
Yes be human. But in some jobs you need to be more careful than others, deal with it. Some humans are more arrogant/complacent/carefree than others. If they reveal that as a pilot, do you think they should still be a pilot?
But a crew that made a mistake landing are hung, drawn and quatered. And yes, it is racism, because everyone was very quick to make excuses for the fire crew, who's job it is to save people, and who should be trained to deal with complex emergencies.
Yes be human. But in some jobs you need to be more careful than others, deal with it. Some humans are more arrogant/complacent/carefree than others. If they reveal that as a pilot, do you think they should still be a pilot?
Last edited by neila83; 24th Dec 2013 at 00:42.
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For those of you who want to hang the pilots (WW I am thinking of you) I suggest that you try to understand what a just culture is:
https://www.justculture.org/what-is-.../#.Uri5rXkte7w
https://www.justculture.org/what-is-.../#.Uri5rXkte7w
That determination wont be made on this forum or by the AAIB...Unfortunately it will be decided by the corporate suits in the company. What happens to the crew at that point will be a measure of the safety culture of BA.
Yes I can sympathise with the crew for taking the wrong route...I've done it myself more than once. But I will be interested to see in the Report how long it took from straying off route before they hit the building and what was going on in the cockpit during that time.
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This is where a balance is required. Poor old WW - widely drubbed by all and sundry, as maybe he should be. There is no doubt that the Captain will ultimately take responsibility here, as indeed he should, but we can and should all learn lessons. I will certainly be redoubling my efforts on night time taxi routes. I have personally become a big fan of the night lighting system used at Gatwick, and indeed at some other airports, whereby the specific taxi route is lit up for each aircraft. It is not foolproof and is only as good as the 'taxi-mation' supervisor operating the lights, but it does provide another layer of protection. Arguably the biggest single protection is an alert crew but, as has just been ably demonstrated, even the most experienced and capable crews are capable of errors on occasions. Layers of protection are the way to go and the individual night time taxi patterns are one more layer.
As an aside, have a look at this clip. It shows what can go wrong when an experienced crew mess up taxi patterns at Providence (USA) some years ago in Low Visibility Operations (around 150m RVR). Bear in mind this was an experienced United Airlines crew who have no doubt done so much better on countless occasions - sadly this was not their best moment, or indeed that of the Controller, and you can see how easily and quickly it all goes wrong.
As an aside, have a look at this clip. It shows what can go wrong when an experienced crew mess up taxi patterns at Providence (USA) some years ago in Low Visibility Operations (around 150m RVR). Bear in mind this was an experienced United Airlines crew who have no doubt done so much better on countless occasions - sadly this was not their best moment, or indeed that of the Controller, and you can see how easily and quickly it all goes wrong.
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despegue, imagination not needed per se. Look after the thread about the 380 in NY last year (it tried to teach a commuter how to dance).
Anyway, anyone able to confirm Basil's memory? (if it's one, and not a guess?)
Anyway, anyone able to confirm Basil's memory? (if it's one, and not a guess?)
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Neil, your problem is exactly that you do "assume", ie, you don't "know". I trust you know what assuming means. Get off your high horse, dude. You're making yourself look stupid. Just like many others, you think that what a couple of posters here say, reflects the views of all professional pilots. 
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Something that didn't come up here on PPRUNE - and I'm surprised it didn't unless I missed it - was SQ taxiing a 380 onto a service road at JFK about three months ago. Supposed to be turning left I think into 'A' off 'G' out of Terminal 4. We had a long wait for our 380 to be towed to stand so we could get going; the delay was obviously due to the frenetic activity as a tug was found and said 380 pushed back into the taxiway, surrounded by JFK's finest flashing blue and red lights.
Later when I was taxiing out on the same route we were all trying to work out what the heck they (SQ crew) were thinking as the taxiway was well lit and the service road had absolutely no lighting! However - Bad day, distractions, confusion can all cause the 'Momentary Lapse of Reason' and I put my hand up to taxiing a 330 once onto the wrong taxiway, luckily with no harm!!! I've also had a ground controller in Nice try to send me down a restricted taxiway in a 340...
Be alert on the ground...
Later when I was taxiing out on the same route we were all trying to work out what the heck they (SQ crew) were thinking as the taxiway was well lit and the service road had absolutely no lighting! However - Bad day, distractions, confusion can all cause the 'Momentary Lapse of Reason' and I put my hand up to taxiing a 330 once onto the wrong taxiway, luckily with no harm!!! I've also had a ground controller in Nice try to send me down a restricted taxiway in a 340...
Be alert on the ground...
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Sorry, but after seeing the difference in the reaction after the Asiana crash, I find it upsetting, as a Brit born and bred, to see the obvious racism/looking after our own in the reactions.
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Too true Oakape,
A guy who has admitted he didn't fancy a visual approach on a new type in the investigation and did too little too late to save the day vs a guy who has, with his co-pilot inadvertently continued down a taxiway he thought he was safe on.
Priceless.
A guy who has admitted he didn't fancy a visual approach on a new type in the investigation and did too little too late to save the day vs a guy who has, with his co-pilot inadvertently continued down a taxiway he thought he was safe on.
Priceless.
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Originally Posted by niela83
So if I've got this right, pilots need more automation?
Originally Posted by niela83
But a crew that made a mistake landing are hung, drawn and quatered. And yes, it is racism
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This is a public Thread, everybody is qualified to politely comment here. I am sure their is a private BA thread where only professionally qualified people will comment.
I have flown with korean guys in China and I understand the cultural problems that people talk about. I don't believe they exist at BA. There maybe insufficient accountability though in BA??
I have flown with korean guys in China and I understand the cultural problems that people talk about. I don't believe they exist at BA. There maybe insufficient accountability though in BA??
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Hi Kungfu Panda,
Fine, it is a public forum and any Tom, Dick or Harry can get involved if he/she wishes to. PPRUNE actually stands for Professional Pilots Rumour Network and as such when I joined, I thought it would attract like-minded people not journalists and armchair keyboard warriors who know very little about what they are talking about. But the floodgates are open and anyone can have their say on here.
I have several friends flying in China in the left hand seat who have to do every take off and landing because the First Officer is not allowed to. God help the passengers if my mate keels over in flight and a hull is lost, not due to the First Officers skills, but because of the culture in the Far East.
This is not thread creep but comparing Korean/Asiana etc etc crashes with what has happened here is disingenuous and irrelevant as much as Neila would like to link the two.
If he doesn't like flying or the safety culture in aviation amongst UK pilots which I believe is amongst the best in the world, then let him go on a slow boat to wherever.
Perhaps Neila would like to focus his attention on the medical profession who earn far more, are not so rigorously tested and who seemingly cause far more deaths by malpractice.
Fine, it is a public forum and any Tom, Dick or Harry can get involved if he/she wishes to. PPRUNE actually stands for Professional Pilots Rumour Network and as such when I joined, I thought it would attract like-minded people not journalists and armchair keyboard warriors who know very little about what they are talking about. But the floodgates are open and anyone can have their say on here.
I have several friends flying in China in the left hand seat who have to do every take off and landing because the First Officer is not allowed to. God help the passengers if my mate keels over in flight and a hull is lost, not due to the First Officers skills, but because of the culture in the Far East.
This is not thread creep but comparing Korean/Asiana etc etc crashes with what has happened here is disingenuous and irrelevant as much as Neila would like to link the two.
If he doesn't like flying or the safety culture in aviation amongst UK pilots which I believe is amongst the best in the world, then let him go on a slow boat to wherever.
Perhaps Neila would like to focus his attention on the medical profession who earn far more, are not so rigorously tested and who seemingly cause far more deaths by malpractice.
Last edited by LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK; 24th Dec 2013 at 04:37.
This is a public Thread, everybody is qualified to politely comment here.
The difference, whilst perhaps narrow, is still deep.
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WOW Alexander!!!! I never saw that clip before! Hats off to USAir........we will hold short until you get it figured out!!!!!
"He is not anywhere near the runway, cleared for take-off............."
I was like thinking......no no no........not that!
Better than a film.
"He is not anywhere near the runway, cleared for take-off............."
I was like thinking......no no no........not that!
Better than a film.
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Perhaps the mistake may have been due to a British culture in the cockpit.
I note an Asian culture was mooted in the Asiana thread at San Francisco. Sometimes we need to look laterally.
I note an Asian culture was mooted in the Asiana thread at San Francisco. Sometimes we need to look laterally.
Plumbum Pendular
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However, it must be remembered that Just Culture is not a 'no blame' culture. In a truly just culture all employees must understand what is, and is not an acceptable standard in the conduct of their duties. Entering the wrong taxiway may be an 'honest' error, but failing to notice the narrowing taxiway or hitting the building...that has yet to be determined as being an error or negligent.
That determination wont be made on this forum or by the AAIB...Unfortunately it will be decided by the corporate suits in the company. What happens to the crew at that point will be a measure of the safety culture of BA.
That determination wont be made on this forum or by the AAIB...Unfortunately it will be decided by the corporate suits in the company. What happens to the crew at that point will be a measure of the safety culture of BA.
FAIR - Flowchart Analysis and Investigation Results - Baines Simmons market leading management tool for error determination and assessment
Anyway, anyone able to confirm Basil's memory? (if it's one, and not a guess?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil View Post
I haven't been there for over 20 years but isn't there even a sign at the junction saying: << 03L ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil View Post
I haven't been there for over 20 years but isn't there even a sign at the junction saying: << 03L ?
It was neither a guess or memory. I have no idea or recollection of such a sign existing. I asked more recent visitors if there was one.