British Airways Incident at Johannesburg
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Wow, the BA guys are a lot better at dishing it out than taking it...
I compared the incidents not for their nature, but to point out the hypocrisy in the reactions. Unfortunately the very people I was hoping would take time to reflect, repeated exactly the point I was making - Asiana pilots definitely at fault, BA pilots- no way! Obviously nothing will persuade them they could ever be at faultg, which is what I think isn't a healthy attitude for cockpit crew.
If this crew had killed people, and it's remarkable they didn't, would you all be saying how sorry you feel for them? I don't remember many feeling sorry for the Asiana crew or accepting mitigating factors. Oh, and there are plenty of ways out of the UK that don't involve a slow boat or BA. You should try them, flying is actually a pleasant experience with them as well.
I compared the incidents not for their nature, but to point out the hypocrisy in the reactions. Unfortunately the very people I was hoping would take time to reflect, repeated exactly the point I was making - Asiana pilots definitely at fault, BA pilots- no way! Obviously nothing will persuade them they could ever be at faultg, which is what I think isn't a healthy attitude for cockpit crew.
If this crew had killed people, and it's remarkable they didn't, would you all be saying how sorry you feel for them? I don't remember many feeling sorry for the Asiana crew or accepting mitigating factors. Oh, and there are plenty of ways out of the UK that don't involve a slow boat or BA. You should try them, flying is actually a pleasant experience with them as well.
DOVE
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Doesn't look like much of a centerline on that taxiway. Does BA have an Airport Moving Map installation?
Maybe a wider discussion on taxi way markings and how information is presented to pilots on aerodrome plates (and notams) will follow.
One can imagine certain factors such as poor signage, lighting and/or charts.
Maybe "someone" head down reprogramming FMC for change in SID/departure?
Maybe "someone" head down reprogramming FMC for change in SID/departure?
Distraction from the primary task of taxying safely.
These days airline crews are given far, far too many tasks to do while taxying out to the runway.
But be honest. Who hasn't looked up while taxying - and got a bit of a shock? Yes?
These days airline crews are given far, far too many tasks to do while taxying out to the runway.
But be honest. Who hasn't looked up while taxying - and got a bit of a shock? Yes?
Sorry, that is ridiculous. If there are too many tasks while taxying you stop them or set the parking brake. All of the crew pays attention to the here and now. Taxying in an unknown area with minimal lighting (if it was well known to the crew or well lit.....) all heads are up. No exceptions.
But: is it possible that these things happen in the age of TOM TOM?
So Who’s at fault?
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Too true Oakape,
A guy who has admitted he didn't fancy a visual approach on a new type in the investigation and did too little too late to save the day vs a guy who has, with his co-pilot inadvertently continued down a taxiway he thought he was safe on.
Priceless.
A guy who has admitted he didn't fancy a visual approach on a new type in the investigation and did too little too late to save the day vs a guy who has, with his co-pilot inadvertently continued down a taxiway he thought he was safe on.
Priceless.
For example were the crew actually looking out the windows of not? Did they think they were taxiing safely or did the miss the turn while looking down. One conclusion implicates airport standards, the other could mean it was not a factor. If they were looking down or distracted, they could have gone anywhere.
I think the point that's trying to be made is that while the BA crew and SFO fire crews are granted much benefit of the doubt, Asiana and AF380 crews were recipients of a lot less. While its natural, its disappointing.
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Hunterboy 23DEC at 09:50
So true my friend, so true!
TYPE CONVERSION ?
Papers available, questions known, just learn the answers.
SEP ?
Download the program from the BA intranet and learn the questions the night before and if you see a new question on the day of the exam then the trainer/adjudicator will whisper the answer into your ear (eg. "Mmmm, that one looks about right, don't you think..").
ATQ ?
Do your best, but if you've been too busy playing away and let it slip all a bit too late, your mates are sure to have done more than you or some of the questions which you haven't yet answered or even have a copy of THE answersheet itself.
SIM ?
Need I say more...
...maybe, just maybe!
The outcome of which is that 'Nigels' simply 'aint as good as they like to think they are, because, as you see from the long-standing cheating culture, they simply don't have to be!
Consequently, in 2013 alone (so far!) we've seen two major incidents that would not have occurred had they been doing their job correctly. Two incidents that reflect badly on a major airline and harm it's reputation with photos of bent or burning British Airways metal all over the media.
So, Nigel, Tarquinn, Quentin, Humphrey, Crispin, Percival or whichever you are, here's a little reminder for you as you once again get distracted by and all up tight over the **** roster you've been given and latest cut in pension and for those in management, most of them stinking dress-wearing Freemasons, who close ranks to protect you and themselves when stuff goes wrong (and are therefore as complicit in your failings) - YOU are at the sharp end, YOU make the dollars, YOU have responsibility. OWN it.
Invest in all of those nicey-nicey programs and look what just happened in J'burg, 'Beyond the Flightdeck'!
So true my friend, so true!
TYPE CONVERSION ?
Papers available, questions known, just learn the answers.
SEP ?
Download the program from the BA intranet and learn the questions the night before and if you see a new question on the day of the exam then the trainer/adjudicator will whisper the answer into your ear (eg. "Mmmm, that one looks about right, don't you think..").
ATQ ?
Do your best, but if you've been too busy playing away and let it slip all a bit too late, your mates are sure to have done more than you or some of the questions which you haven't yet answered or even have a copy of THE answersheet itself.
SIM ?
Need I say more...
...maybe, just maybe!The outcome of which is that 'Nigels' simply 'aint as good as they like to think they are, because, as you see from the long-standing cheating culture, they simply don't have to be!
Consequently, in 2013 alone (so far!) we've seen two major incidents that would not have occurred had they been doing their job correctly. Two incidents that reflect badly on a major airline and harm it's reputation with photos of bent or burning British Airways metal all over the media.
So, Nigel, Tarquinn, Quentin, Humphrey, Crispin, Percival or whichever you are, here's a little reminder for you as you once again get distracted by and all up tight over the **** roster you've been given and latest cut in pension and for those in management, most of them stinking dress-wearing Freemasons, who close ranks to protect you and themselves when stuff goes wrong (and are therefore as complicit in your failings) - YOU are at the sharp end, YOU make the dollars, YOU have responsibility. OWN it.
Invest in all of those nicey-nicey programs and look what just happened in J'burg, 'Beyond the Flightdeck'!
Last edited by hyatt_1_alpha; 24th Dec 2013 at 13:34.
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I don't actually see where anyone has said the pilots were not at fault, despite the fact that you are not yet in possession of the AAIB findings nor anyone else.
Your anti-BA b******t is laughable Neila and trying to compare the Asiana incident with this, shows how little you actually know about aviation.
Your anti-BA b******t is laughable Neila and trying to compare the Asiana incident with this, shows how little you actually know about aviation.
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Some of the "Perfect - I never make mistakes" posters seem to ignore the fact that in this case there was really only one error. The aircraft (for whatever reason) didn't turn left.
Had the crew been unaware that they were on the wrong taxiway they would certainly have stopped. But they obviously were not so aware. Although they might have spotted say a vehicle which was apparently too close, and stopped, most of us would have probably assumed that a building could not have been built within striking range and continued, given that we thought we were on the correct taxiway. At night.
The only amusing thing that comes out of a sad incident like this is seeing how many people come out of the woodwork to demonstrate how much better they are than the unfortunate crews involved.
No, I'm not making excuses by proxy: I'm just thankful that my many mistakes didn't have similar or worse outcomes.
The investigation will tell us what transpired, not these columns.
Had the crew been unaware that they were on the wrong taxiway they would certainly have stopped. But they obviously were not so aware. Although they might have spotted say a vehicle which was apparently too close, and stopped, most of us would have probably assumed that a building could not have been built within striking range and continued, given that we thought we were on the correct taxiway. At night.
The only amusing thing that comes out of a sad incident like this is seeing how many people come out of the woodwork to demonstrate how much better they are than the unfortunate crews involved.
No, I'm not making excuses by proxy: I'm just thankful that my many mistakes didn't have similar or worse outcomes.
The investigation will tell us what transpired, not these columns.
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This is an unfortunate taxiing accident. Lessons will be learned. It has absolutely nothing to do with mid-air collisions over Zagreb 38 years ago, nor landing accidents in San Francisco this year. Nobody was killed. Nobody was injured. An aircraft suffered serious damage and so did a building. Insurance will take care of both of those losses. There was no intent to cause this event.
The problem of runway incursions, communication failures, and airport signage, is a global one. It is a problem that is highlighted as a primary cause of accidents, potential accidents, and incidents. There will be very, very few professional pilots with any significant degree of experience who haven't found themselves involved in this type of problem on occasion. Given the global nature of the problem, cultural considerations and authority gradients are unlikely to play any significant role as a causal part of the problem.
The ill informed and the breathlessly excited will no doubt think otherwise, but there will be few professional pilots here who haven't been in similar circumstances that simply had a luckier outcome. Discussion arising as a result of this accident is a good thing at all levels, but the hijacking of a thread by all the usual suspects to promote the popular set of prejudices, ill informed opinion, and vacuous comment, really adds nothing other than post count.
The problem of runway incursions, communication failures, and airport signage, is a global one. It is a problem that is highlighted as a primary cause of accidents, potential accidents, and incidents. There will be very, very few professional pilots with any significant degree of experience who haven't found themselves involved in this type of problem on occasion. Given the global nature of the problem, cultural considerations and authority gradients are unlikely to play any significant role as a causal part of the problem.
The ill informed and the breathlessly excited will no doubt think otherwise, but there will be few professional pilots here who haven't been in similar circumstances that simply had a luckier outcome. Discussion arising as a result of this accident is a good thing at all levels, but the hijacking of a thread by all the usual suspects to promote the popular set of prejudices, ill informed opinion, and vacuous comment, really adds nothing other than post count.
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Back in the days (late 80's/early 90's) when I was flying for the main domestic competitor (BM) a bit of "Nigel Baiting" was inevitable. Their attitude on Heathrow Ground made it impossible not too. Most of these airs of "false superiority" seem to have evaporated these last 20 years, and whilst one still hears the old "Atlantic Baron", or "Cynthia Crutchstrap"esque jolly-hockeysticks public school accent on the airwaves, I think for the most part the Niges come across as being pretty much like the rest of us. . . .working too hard & being treated with contempt by their middle managers.
Given how outrageously the management (some of it not even pilot management) behaved towards the last crew to be involved in such a public incident (thinking the LHR 777 not the open cowling Bus jobbie) one can only hope that their treatment of the crew is more considered & consistent across the whole enquiry than they managed back then . . .when the FD crew went from being publicy feted heroes to having their abilities questioned in the fluttering of a stewards eyelash. A wrong that fortunately was eventually put right, but not without some personal cost to the individuals affected.
Bit of a screw-up this one . . . . but, as many have stated, "there but for the grace of God". . . . . . Hoping for a fair outcome that involves learning taking precedence over castigation (just like pprune then
)
Given how outrageously the management (some of it not even pilot management) behaved towards the last crew to be involved in such a public incident (thinking the LHR 777 not the open cowling Bus jobbie) one can only hope that their treatment of the crew is more considered & consistent across the whole enquiry than they managed back then . . .when the FD crew went from being publicy feted heroes to having their abilities questioned in the fluttering of a stewards eyelash. A wrong that fortunately was eventually put right, but not without some personal cost to the individuals affected.
Bit of a screw-up this one . . . . but, as many have stated, "there but for the grace of God". . . . . . Hoping for a fair outcome that involves learning taking precedence over castigation (just like pprune then
)
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Yes, the Nigel screwed up but that is not the real issue.
The intersection concerned is a known hazard which should have been changed at least 20 years ago but nobody bothered.
The layout of the intersection was a trap waiting for another (yes, several others have done it) unwary pilot to get suckered into on a dark night.
It could have been any of us, it had to happen again eventually and this time it caught a widebody with wings long enough to hit the building.
The intersection concerned is a known hazard which should have been changed at least 20 years ago but nobody bothered.
The layout of the intersection was a trap waiting for another (yes, several others have done it) unwary pilot to get suckered into on a dark night.
It could have been any of us, it had to happen again eventually and this time it caught a widebody with wings long enough to hit the building.
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TWT The AAIB are investigating an incident which happened in JNB ?
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This incident is not the same as the Asiana in any sense with regard to "airmanship". I'm a little vague here but I read somewhere that an NTSB or Boeing official made a statement that when designing an aircraft we assume that pilots learn to monitor speed during an approach in an early stage of their training. Pilots are not taught during an early stage of their training to take the bend to the left when the taxiway straight and the left bend are both equally lighted.
I am interested to know how fast he was taxiing though, by the distance he travelled through that building before he stopped, it seems to me he must have been taxiing fairly fast i.e. toward the straight line limit of the 747 (30 kts), I would have thought at night with cabin crew preparing for the departure maybe a slower speed would have been more appropriate. Just speculation, I know..
I am interested to know how fast he was taxiing though, by the distance he travelled through that building before he stopped, it seems to me he must have been taxiing fairly fast i.e. toward the straight line limit of the 747 (30 kts), I would have thought at night with cabin crew preparing for the departure maybe a slower speed would have been more appropriate. Just speculation, I know..
Bealzebub, Ancient Geek, Captplaystation
Well said! This thread is following a familiar track. Those of us who do the job have almost certainly erred and been lucky to get away with it with nothing more than a slap on the wrist from ATC. A lot of us will want to find out WHAT happened before passing judgement.
Those that don't fly jump to conclusions!
I would imagine most BA pilots, like their fellow professionals, in other companies, are loathe to condemn a crew without seeing the final report. We all make mistakes and there is, I believe, a broad consensus that what is most important is to LEARN from these errors. 'Just culture' does not mean absolving crews from mistakes if it can be shown that they were reckless or negligent. If you want an open reporting system where pilots feel supported to admit their errors then you need the just culture. The alternative system did not work and their were plenty of smoking holes in the ground to prove it.
Last time I went to Joburg I was warned specifically by my colleague not to continue into the maintenance area by mistake. However, I could see, or not(!) how it would be easy through a moment's inattention/distraction to do so. Off my soapbox, Merry Christmas everyone.
Well said! This thread is following a familiar track. Those of us who do the job have almost certainly erred and been lucky to get away with it with nothing more than a slap on the wrist from ATC. A lot of us will want to find out WHAT happened before passing judgement.
Those that don't fly jump to conclusions!
I would imagine most BA pilots, like their fellow professionals, in other companies, are loathe to condemn a crew without seeing the final report. We all make mistakes and there is, I believe, a broad consensus that what is most important is to LEARN from these errors. 'Just culture' does not mean absolving crews from mistakes if it can be shown that they were reckless or negligent. If you want an open reporting system where pilots feel supported to admit their errors then you need the just culture. The alternative system did not work and their were plenty of smoking holes in the ground to prove it.
Last time I went to Joburg I was warned specifically by my colleague not to continue into the maintenance area by mistake. However, I could see, or not(!) how it would be easy through a moment's inattention/distraction to do so. Off my soapbox, Merry Christmas everyone.
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Gulf Air L1011 crews were in 1976 the second airline in the world ( trained by BA ) in low vis take offs and landings plus ground manoeuvring.All the above procedures utilised the onboard ground run monitor and ground speed indicator.Low vis chart distances were inserted into the ground run monitor and a 3 knot ground speed and ground radar instructions were to be the way to go to and from the runway in low vis.
Sadly it not work that well because the ground radar was not then up to the guidance job in the turns.
When landing in low vis at LHR I was guided in by an Indian gentleman standing in the back of a Mini truck shinning a powerful beam of light on the nose cone...
this system worked and could be immediately introduced at airports where lighting and guidance are inadequate....I recommend my Indian gentleman and his light be considered by this African airports management team who will probably state that safety is their first priority but not really mean it.
Sadly it not work that well because the ground radar was not then up to the guidance job in the turns.
When landing in low vis at LHR I was guided in by an Indian gentleman standing in the back of a Mini truck shinning a powerful beam of light on the nose cone...
this system worked and could be immediately introduced at airports where lighting and guidance are inadequate....I recommend my Indian gentleman and his light be considered by this African airports management team who will probably state that safety is their first priority but not really mean it.
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Would suggest that the taxi speed was less than 30 kts, as to be going at that speed he would have gone further through the building before realising, reacting, and bringing the aircraft to a halt...
Also, I would suggest that the PF thought he was in fact on the correct taxiway as he was absolutely on the centreline, so was presumably looking out of the window... Hence a reasonable assumption that the building was in fact not an obstacle worthy of consideration.
Foul up, yes... And no doubt the skip will carry the can. But, we need to take the other factors into consideration. Has learning taken place?? We can only hope so.
Also, I would suggest that the PF thought he was in fact on the correct taxiway as he was absolutely on the centreline, so was presumably looking out of the window... Hence a reasonable assumption that the building was in fact not an obstacle worthy of consideration.
Foul up, yes... And no doubt the skip will carry the can. But, we need to take the other factors into consideration. Has learning taken place?? We can only hope so.
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Bealzebub nice post as always.
Point of Interest for many who have posted on this thread.
When you see a full on troll post (you all know to which I am referring) why do you respond? I'm not talking here of merely argumentative, banter driven, or just a bit ill-informed posts, but posts that are so obviously valueless LOL vomited bilge.
Trolls post like this to get a reaction. Many are walts; many are sad, lifeless losers.
Do us all a favour - ignore them. Eventually they will get the message and go elsewhere.
Point of Interest for many who have posted on this thread.
When you see a full on troll post (you all know to which I am referring) why do you respond? I'm not talking here of merely argumentative, banter driven, or just a bit ill-informed posts, but posts that are so obviously valueless LOL vomited bilge.
Trolls post like this to get a reaction. Many are walts; many are sad, lifeless losers.
Do us all a favour - ignore them. Eventually they will get the message and go elsewhere.