British Airways Incident at Johannesburg
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: earth
Posts: 1,098
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If ever there is an argument for moving map airport taxiway displays to be made mandatory in commercial aircraft this is it.
We can ask for more and more gimmicks in our birds, it never replaces situational awareness. It even seems to diminish the latter, increasing dependency on the Wii-stuff.
This is a stuff-up, not helped by inadequate signing, charting etc, but it remains a stuff-up.
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: South Africa
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tssk tssk
As one who has lived in South Africa (and has had family there for non-stop for 180 years) I am not in the least bit surprised that the ground markings are so poor, the taxiways confusing and warning signs lacking.
I have been lucky to travel far and wide and can say that South Africa's airports are of world class quality - especially Cape Town and JNB. Of course, I can't speak for the signage issue, but it is quite amazing that every year, hundreds of thousands of flights depart from that runway and in that time, only once did a 747 make it down Mike to clip a 60 year old building.
Please direct your misguided bitterness elsewhere.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Quick note:
It should be remembered that PDF's are capable of being annotated with an overlay which might be a small box or text wihout redrawing the entire diagram.
Depending on the application used to create the update and the software being used to display it, the annotation/overlay may or may not displayed depending on the application of User permissions.
One may want to know whether an overlay had been created for this document. Certain software can also display the date the overlay was added.
It should be remembered that PDF's are capable of being annotated with an overlay which might be a small box or text wihout redrawing the entire diagram.
Depending on the application used to create the update and the software being used to display it, the annotation/overlay may or may not displayed depending on the application of User permissions.
One may want to know whether an overlay had been created for this document. Certain software can also display the date the overlay was added.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If ever there is an argument for moving map airport taxiway displays to be made mandatory in commercial aircraft this is it.
99% of taxi errors do not involve hitting anything, or even going off a valid taxiway - they just involve crossing a stopbar / taking wrong taxiway / passing the clearance limit. A MM display will not (necessarily) help here. Unfortunately this aircraft was in the 1%
What is needed is more time taken to brief, discuss and monitor the taxiing, and less "tasks" assigned by SOPs / Companies.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Age: 70
Posts: 288
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think we're all missing the point on SA. Situational Awareness depends firstly on the information available and secondly on the interpretation of the information, modified by fatigue, confirmation bias, etc. etc.
This is not a simple case of taking a wrong turn or not taking a turn... this is a complex human factors event that needs detailed investigation and analysis to find out why an experienced crew ignored bright green centerline taxiway lights curving to the left on Twy Bravo to the T/hold on 03 to instead continue on Twy Mike.
Work out, given an average taxi speed and the distance, and the considerable visual field from the cockpit of a 744, what the time would be from the straight piece of Bravo when they could first see the curve to the turn. In order to understand why this happened we would have to assume that all three flight deck occupants had their heads down simultaneously for what.. 20 - 30 seconds?
Doing what? Simultaneously programming the FMS? Ordering their vegetarian meal for after take off? Give me a break.
I am willing to bet that in the darkness and with the signage available
they never saw the turn, and I ask again whether we are certain whether or not the centreline lights were on prior to the incident. We have a pax witness that says they were on as they disembarked. Were they on before?
If a crew stuffs up, I have no problem with them facing the music. But I have frankly been appalled by the lynch mob mentality of some postings on this forum. The Australians have a saying relating to fairness: "give them a fair suck at the sauce bottle". Yes, the skipper is ultimately responsible - but the skipper is surely only as good at making decisions as the quality of information he or she receives. Before you start throwing rocks, give them a fair suck at the sauce bottle. Establish the facts - if not for this incident then to stop this near miss - in human terms - becoming another - perhaps fatal - event in the future.
This is not a simple case of taking a wrong turn or not taking a turn... this is a complex human factors event that needs detailed investigation and analysis to find out why an experienced crew ignored bright green centerline taxiway lights curving to the left on Twy Bravo to the T/hold on 03 to instead continue on Twy Mike.
Work out, given an average taxi speed and the distance, and the considerable visual field from the cockpit of a 744, what the time would be from the straight piece of Bravo when they could first see the curve to the turn. In order to understand why this happened we would have to assume that all three flight deck occupants had their heads down simultaneously for what.. 20 - 30 seconds?
Doing what? Simultaneously programming the FMS? Ordering their vegetarian meal for after take off? Give me a break.
I am willing to bet that in the darkness and with the signage available
they never saw the turn, and I ask again whether we are certain whether or not the centreline lights were on prior to the incident. We have a pax witness that says they were on as they disembarked. Were they on before?If a crew stuffs up, I have no problem with them facing the music. But I have frankly been appalled by the lynch mob mentality of some postings on this forum. The Australians have a saying relating to fairness: "give them a fair suck at the sauce bottle". Yes, the skipper is ultimately responsible - but the skipper is surely only as good at making decisions as the quality of information he or she receives. Before you start throwing rocks, give them a fair suck at the sauce bottle. Establish the facts - if not for this incident then to stop this near miss - in human terms - becoming another - perhaps fatal - event in the future.
Last edited by Pinkman; 1st Jan 2014 at 16:56.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jacdec don't even consider it a taxilane!
"the pilots - instead of following the taxiway to the left - erroneously rolled straight ahead. The 747 entered a service road to a maintenance area".
"the pilots - instead of following the taxiway to the left - erroneously rolled straight ahead. The 747 entered a service road to a maintenance area".
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Western USA
Posts: 555
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If taking the wrong taxiway is a commonly occurring error worthy of a pass by peers and management (and it really is, given certain circumstances), why is the majority of the focus of this discussion on taking the wrong taxiway? As I see it, there are two errors here, taking the wrong taxiway and then taxiing into the building. The latter is the incredulous and egregious error in my eyes, and one that begs the question of how this could happen. As crew members, we have all made mistakes, and yes, including taking the wrong taxiway, but I'll wager not many of us have taxied into a building.
The cure for this particular taxiway routing confusion is fairly simple, and has been over-discussed in previous posts within this thread. The cure for taxiing into a building by a professional flight crew, even though a very rare occurrence, may be more complex considering that generally accepted avoidance is to pay attention to what is outside the windows in the near proximity of the airplane.
I vote giving the crew a pass on the first error and imposing accountability for the second error...and to be fair, listening to their individual timelines prior to impacting the building. That's a story that I would like to hear.
The cure for this particular taxiway routing confusion is fairly simple, and has been over-discussed in previous posts within this thread. The cure for taxiing into a building by a professional flight crew, even though a very rare occurrence, may be more complex considering that generally accepted avoidance is to pay attention to what is outside the windows in the near proximity of the airplane.
I vote giving the crew a pass on the first error and imposing accountability for the second error...and to be fair, listening to their individual timelines prior to impacting the building. That's a story that I would like to hear.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Thailand
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In this case the issue appears to be a missing font, as described by MarcK on the previous page. I'd agree with your underlying point that not all pdfs are created (or edited) equal. I would have thought that modifying these charts would be done in a regimented way, but apparently not...
Guest
Posts: n/a
Why we keep mentioning DARK and WRONG TAXIWAY ?
For long time now, most pilots proudly keep all lights ON bellow FL100, inspite of TCAS and STROBE lights came in use.
Why these guys had to taxy "in dark" ? What stopped them using their lights ?
Even if B-747 wing-tip is some 35 m (120') from cockpit, should't crew especially F/O be able to judge if building or ANY OTHER OBJECT is that close or not ?
PS Desert 185 is right
FMS... check list.. ?
For long time now, most pilots proudly keep all lights ON bellow FL100, inspite of TCAS and STROBE lights came in use.
Why these guys had to taxy "in dark" ? What stopped them using their lights ?
Even if B-747 wing-tip is some 35 m (120') from cockpit, should't crew especially F/O be able to judge if building or ANY OTHER OBJECT is that close or not ?
PS Desert 185 is right
Prior to impact, they were obviously somewhere else mentally.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Another Planet.
Posts: 559
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"should't crew especially F/O be able to judge if building or ANY OTHER OBJECT is that close or not ?"
Captains, how many of you, having asked your F/O "clear right", actually see the right hand ear (area) of your oppo when he says "OK"?
F/Os, how many of you, having asked etc, see the left hand ear (area) of your oppo when he asks you "clear left"?
Unless they are ex-military, most flightdeck appear to have a neck restriction when it comes to lookout, especially on the ground.
Try it next time you operate, and then wonder why?
Captains, how many of you, having asked your F/O "clear right", actually see the right hand ear (area) of your oppo when he says "OK"?
F/Os, how many of you, having asked etc, see the left hand ear (area) of your oppo when he asks you "clear left"?
Unless they are ex-military, most flightdeck appear to have a neck restriction when it comes to lookout, especially on the ground.
Try it next time you operate, and then wonder why?
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In response to Bobbysy at #427
Of course it can be repaired! But would the repair be economically viable, I think not.
The aircraft was recently off a 'D' check at CWL, which represented a substantial investment by the airline to keep NLL in service for a further 3.5 yrs, when it was due to be gracefully retired.
The damage sustained to the forward spar & lower skin plank, though not referenced in the SRM, would attract an achievable Repair Scheme from Boeing.
The Qantas 744 incident at BKK in 1999 is representative of the dilemma facing BA and it's insurer's. In the QF case, the a/c was an economic write-off, but to protect QF from a potential hull loss smear on their blemish free record, they took the decision to repair, and did so successfully (btw that a/c was finally scrapped in 2012).
In the case of NLL (poor old girl) the situation is slightly different, the airframe being much older than the QF.
The damage is beyond a 'quick patch & ferry', so it looks as though NLL will end its days in JNB! If you take a close look at the photo at #32, not only will you see a rucksack hanging from the l/edge, but you will also see visible brickwork embedded into the fwd spar, plus a rather meaty ripple in the lower skin plank.
Also, typing G-BNLL into the AAIB database shows that the 'old girl' has 'some previous form', so maybe it is time to put her to rest!
Of course it can be repaired! But would the repair be economically viable, I think not.
The aircraft was recently off a 'D' check at CWL, which represented a substantial investment by the airline to keep NLL in service for a further 3.5 yrs, when it was due to be gracefully retired.
The damage sustained to the forward spar & lower skin plank, though not referenced in the SRM, would attract an achievable Repair Scheme from Boeing.
The Qantas 744 incident at BKK in 1999 is representative of the dilemma facing BA and it's insurer's. In the QF case, the a/c was an economic write-off, but to protect QF from a potential hull loss smear on their blemish free record, they took the decision to repair, and did so successfully (btw that a/c was finally scrapped in 2012).
In the case of NLL (poor old girl) the situation is slightly different, the airframe being much older than the QF.
The damage is beyond a 'quick patch & ferry', so it looks as though NLL will end its days in JNB! If you take a close look at the photo at #32, not only will you see a rucksack hanging from the l/edge, but you will also see visible brickwork embedded into the fwd spar, plus a rather meaty ripple in the lower skin plank.
Also, typing G-BNLL into the AAIB database shows that the 'old girl' has 'some previous form', so maybe it is time to put her to rest!
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: San Jose
Posts: 727
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looking at the first PDF image posted by OverRun, it's interesting that in the note box at the bottom is a width restriction on taxiway C. In the absence of other visible information, one might assume there were no other significant width restrictions.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The navtec plates make no mention of taxiway width on Mike. As per usual, they don't have much useful information on them at all.
Second rate product compared to jeppesen IMHO.
Second rate product compared to jeppesen IMHO.
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Uk
Age: 53
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pinkman:
I just have to clarify one point: as stated earlier this observation was about 50 minutes after the incident, and taxiway lightning might have changed after the incident or because of the incident. We could all clearly see what happened without even knowing the taxiway layout when we got off the plane. The green centreline observation was made by a fellow passenger who were on the right side of the bus, and in retrospect, he could have just talked about the normal taxiway outer lights that curved to the left. This was my assumption when I saw the curve had green lights and not my direct observation. Sorry, not my intention to mislead anyone but just want to point this possibility out.
We have a pax witness that says they were on as they disembarked
Paxing All Over The World
Captain Snor
(sry to have to answer this in the main thread, I'll be brief)
Paxbox, are you just another ex-South African having to shoot the country down to justify your decision to leave?
Please direct your misguided bitterness elsewhere.
- No. I am a Brit who has lived in several countries around the world and worked in several more.
- I have been paxing through FAJS for 48 years, in a wide selection of a/c from numerous carriers, domestic and international.
- If you had read the thread in full, you would see my sympathy for the crew
- If you had read the thread in full, you would see that I criticise more than just the (apparently) poor signage.
- I have a modicum of inside information that I cannot divulge - even in private.
- South Africa does some things very well and some very badly - just like 100% of countries.
Last edited by PAXboy; 2nd Jan 2014 at 13:33.
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: ZA
Age: 61
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Paxboy commented on poor signage:
And Captain Snor took issue:
I live in Johannesburg and it is not just taxiway markings that are inadequate. Poor or non-existent signage is a fact of life in this town:
Road painters losing their direction - IOL Motoring Industry News | IOL.co.za
I am not a pilot and understand that the captain of the aircraft bears ultimate responsibility for the good and the bad during a flight. However, my knee-jerk response on hearing of the incident was to wonder whether or not there had been some sort of lapse in ATC or at the airport.
It appears that there are many factors at play here. My sympathy is with the flight crew; clearly they did not intend to taxi their plane into a building. One can only hope that they are dealt with fairly and not hung out to dry because it's the most convenient option for the beancounters.
I am not in the least bit surprised that the ground markings are so poor, the taxiways confusing and warning signs lacking.
Paxbox, are you just another ex-South African having to shoot the country down to justify your decision to leave?
Road painters losing their direction - IOL Motoring Industry News | IOL.co.za
I am not a pilot and understand that the captain of the aircraft bears ultimate responsibility for the good and the bad during a flight. However, my knee-jerk response on hearing of the incident was to wonder whether or not there had been some sort of lapse in ATC or at the airport.
It appears that there are many factors at play here. My sympathy is with the flight crew; clearly they did not intend to taxi their plane into a building. One can only hope that they are dealt with fairly and not hung out to dry because it's the most convenient option for the beancounters.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Age: 70
Posts: 288
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Charlie 210
Thanks for the clarification. Twy edge lights would/should have been blue not green so I think the original observation would have been correct.
Doubtless this will all come out in the rigorous, impartial, and technically competent investigation that we all expect knowing the professionalism of the SA CAA and the states that will be invited under 5.18 and 5.19 of ICAO Annex 13. They will, I am sure, be independently corroborated by area CCTV, witness statements, crew statements on timelines, CVR transcripts, ATC recordings (and tower CCTV if available) interviews with ATC duty staff, etc. as well as interviews and statements from other crew that used that intersection/turn immediately before the subject aircraft.
Having said that, first hand observations can always useful even from an untrained eye, as long as they are taken for what they are.
Doubtless this will all come out in the rigorous, impartial, and technically competent investigation that we all expect knowing the professionalism of the SA CAA and the states that will be invited under 5.18 and 5.19 of ICAO Annex 13. They will, I am sure, be independently corroborated by area CCTV, witness statements, crew statements on timelines, CVR transcripts, ATC recordings (and tower CCTV if available) interviews with ATC duty staff, etc. as well as interviews and statements from other crew that used that intersection/turn immediately before the subject aircraft.
Having said that, first hand observations can always useful even from an untrained eye, as long as they are taken for what they are.
Pegase Driver
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 74
Posts: 3,689
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Noy-a-pilot :
Do you have any indication to confirm that statement ? Have there been previous ground incidents involving ATC that would explain your "knee-jerk" response ?
However, my knee-jerk response on hearing of the incident was to wonder whether or not there had been some sort of lapse in ATC or at the airport.
