British Airways Incident at Johannesburg
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Reply to BOAC #439
I seem to have read miles of text and placing myself in the pilots seat with the centre line green lights passing under my leg, in the pitch dark hole, I can not possibly imagine continuing OFF that line of green lights which is now turning off to the left and going straight on into a black unlit hole. That could not possibly have happened unless the line of green centre line lights went that way.
The centreline lights on Taxyway M must have been LIT! If they were not lit then nobody would just continue straight ahead into the blackness while your line of green lights curved away to the left...
I seem to have read miles of text and placing myself in the pilots seat with the centre line green lights passing under my leg, in the pitch dark hole, I can not possibly imagine continuing OFF that line of green lights which is now turning off to the left and going straight on into a black unlit hole. That could not possibly have happened unless the line of green centre line lights went that way.
The centreline lights on Taxyway M must have been LIT! If they were not lit then nobody would just continue straight ahead into the blackness while your line of green lights curved away to the left...
Last edited by petermcleland; 5th Jan 2014 at 15:14.
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The centreline lights on Taxyway M must have been LIT!
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"I thought we were discussing the cause of an accident, not aircraft restoration ? "
Amazing how these threads drift off into disconnected issues.
I hope the professional pilots amonst us don't suffer the same distraction when operating?
Can we get back to the problem of PPs getting lost ON THE GROUND and then puttting a wing into a building please?
Possible loss of S A and questionable lookout, maybe compounded with "getting the numbers", is a more constructive thread to discuss than wondering about the scrapping policy of the owner/lessor or whoever?!
Amazing how these threads drift off into disconnected issues.
I hope the professional pilots amonst us don't suffer the same distraction when operating?
Can we get back to the problem of PPs getting lost ON THE GROUND and then puttting a wing into a building please?
Possible loss of S A and questionable lookout, maybe compounded with "getting the numbers", is a more constructive thread to discuss than wondering about the scrapping policy of the owner/lessor or whoever?!
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The centreline lights on Taxyway M must have been LIT! If they were not lit then nobody would just continue straight ahead into the blackness while your line of green lights curved away to the left...
), Then its all.....darkness.
Paxing All Over The World
petermcleland
Earlier in the thread, a linked video clip shows a Swiss A340 on the B taxiway. I do not recall seeing a date of that recording BUT, it showed only a yellow centre line with small blued edge lights - NO centre lights.
Worth looking for the post in this thread but the clip is now in another place:
The centreline lights on Taxyway M must have been LIT!
Worth looking for the post in this thread but the clip is now in another place:
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I contacted the Swissair fellow who's video I posted a few posts back (post 449). That original video was, however, edited and it did not show the complete taxi event (at about 3:36 in the original video taxiway B fades into the runway threshold). I asked him to include the complete taxi event rounding the dog-leg corner. The video clip posted by PAXboy is from the same takeoff but it includes bits previously edited out. The full taxi video shows us three things: (a) on the night it was taken there were green center line lights showing the turn, (b) the edge lights along taxi lane M is red compared to the blue along A and B and (c) the building that was hit is very well lit. Also interesting to hear that the Swiss pilots were giving running commentary during the taxi, explicitly mentioning the fact that they had to go left just before the dog-leg. According to DNHUG, who made the video, it dates from 2012 but the original video was uploaded to Youtube on 5 June 2011, so it's safe to say that it was taken before that date.
Last edited by Gigajoules; 6th Jan 2014 at 13:40. Reason: Clarification
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Gigajoules and paxboy, many thanks for that video and the explanations, but that does not answer the major question : what was visible on that night ? It is not because green centre lights were installed and ON , on a 2011 or 2012 night that there were ON that night just before BA taxied.
Aslo in case they were INOP, was it known to ATC , was the INOP just mentioned in a NOTAM, or on the Ground R/T ? etc.. Those kind of answers would help . But I am speculating . Maybe the cause(s) of this accident ly elsewhere altogether.
One thing is sure, ATNS and BA know the answer already by now , and since both did not communicate about it yet, this could indicate a more complex " shared" scenario
Aslo in case they were INOP, was it known to ATC , was the INOP just mentioned in a NOTAM, or on the Ground R/T ? etc.. Those kind of answers would help . But I am speculating . Maybe the cause(s) of this accident ly elsewhere altogether.
One thing is sure, ATNS and BA know the answer already by now , and since both did not communicate about it yet, this could indicate a more complex " shared" scenario
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Whilst not directly relevant to the accident, it is of an in-direct interest IMO
I thought the same in costing. However I have seen reference to a possible serviceability date of around end of February, beginning of March = it is likely to be fixed but it is a "I will believe it when I see it"
Given that this particular airframe was not due to be retired it maybe a simple calculation of the cost of a D check for one of the aircraft scheduled to be retired, and the additional cost incurred by scrapping the aircraft in JNB rather than scrapping it in the desert.
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Having seen the video, if you're going down that taxiway and are expecting the green lights to signal the left turn onto B and they don't appear, I can see how easy it is to continue in a straight line. Awaiting the report with interest.
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I apologise if this question is inappropriate, or if it's already been asked and I somehow missed it...
How long does it usually take for preliminary reports, or reports on any progress being made in the investigation, to be published?
So far the only thing on the SACAA website about the incident is their original press release issued immediately after the incident, which implied (unfairly IMO because not all the facts could have been known yet) that the fault lay squarely with the flight crew.
I'm just curious...
How long does it usually take for preliminary reports, or reports on any progress being made in the investigation, to be published?
So far the only thing on the SACAA website about the incident is their original press release issued immediately after the incident, which implied (unfairly IMO because not all the facts could have been known yet) that the fault lay squarely with the flight crew.
I'm just curious...
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Not-a pilot. You can answer that one yourself easily by looking up some reports for previous accidents and comparing their publication date with the accident date on the report.
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Overstress:
Thank you. This is what their website says about releasing reports to the public:
"Accident reports take anything from 12 months to be completed, depending on the complexity of the investigation."
Some of the comments in this thread gave me the (perhaps mistaken) impression that the reports were likely to be available to those in the industry sooner than the 12 months the CAA says it will take before the report is published on their website.
It just seems strange to me that it can take a year or more to investigate a relatively minor incident where there were no fatalities and there is easy access to all the key personnel and equipment.
Thank you. This is what their website says about releasing reports to the public:
"Accident reports take anything from 12 months to be completed, depending on the complexity of the investigation."
Some of the comments in this thread gave me the (perhaps mistaken) impression that the reports were likely to be available to those in the industry sooner than the 12 months the CAA says it will take before the report is published on their website.
It just seems strange to me that it can take a year or more to investigate a relatively minor incident where there were no fatalities and there is easy access to all the key personnel and equipment.
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Not-a_Pilot Have you met the Civil Service before? Consider the efficacy of the ZA Dept of Home Affairs ... 
Not least, you have to allow time for those with something to lose to make their plans and line up the lawyers.
Not least, you have to allow time for those with something to lose to make their plans and line up the lawyers.
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Not-a-Pilot. I have been involved in investigations, and there is one thing you have to realise is that the world does not stop for them because of one accident. There are only a limited number of people in each country working on accident investigations, and your latest accident comes on top of the pile of existing cases being investigated,.
If there are no casualties, the urgency is not there.
Then even if it is a simple case, when the preliminary work is done, a draft has to be circulated to all ( outisde ) parties to the investigation , such as manufacturer, country of registry , Operator, ATC service provider, other Investigations bureaus, (like NTSB, BEA, etc..) for comments. The whole process is long..
All in all , a generic statement , :about a year for a simple case, many years if complicated ( think TWA 800)
Just like Justice in a democraftic Country. Takes time.
If there are no casualties, the urgency is not there.
Then even if it is a simple case, when the preliminary work is done, a draft has to be circulated to all ( outisde ) parties to the investigation , such as manufacturer, country of registry , Operator, ATC service provider, other Investigations bureaus, (like NTSB, BEA, etc..) for comments. The whole process is long..
All in all , a generic statement , :about a year for a simple case, many years if complicated ( think TWA 800)
Just like Justice in a democraftic Country. Takes time.
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Thank you for the clarification.
Paxboy: I'd forgotten about the (un)civil service aspect
The cynic in me wants to say something else, but it is inappropriate in a public forum!
Paxboy: I'd forgotten about the (un)civil service aspect
The cynic in me wants to say something else, but it is inappropriate in a public forum!
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Not-a: Those in the industry who follow these things are well used to reports taking months if not years, certainly in the UK the AAIB has to fight for government resources along with all the other departments.
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There are a large number of pilots on the 747 and considerable turn over. The fact that BA have operated there for decades doesn't mean the individuals on the day have been there before let alone often.
Any word on what's happening to the airplane? It's been nearly a month - I'd think it would be apparent by now if BA was going to fix it enough to fly it out, or scrap in place.