British Airways Incident at Johannesburg
The taxilane M was unlit and much narower but went straight on while taxiway B bent towards the runway but was lit with a green centerline.
Charlie210, glad you and baby boy are ok.
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BOAC, it seems that it was the first building that was hit, 185meters from the split of the centreline.
Jo, there is a sign on the left, 75meters before the split, but I have no idea what is being indicated.
Jo, there is a sign on the left, 75meters before the split, but I have no idea what is being indicated.
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Well, BA dont think it was as serious incident. While writng this I received a call and offered 15000 avios as compensation. Recevied much more from other airlines previously just for an overbooking! But then again I am still writng this post and happy to be alive..
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Interesting perspectives.
So Charlie210 is either a liar or a plant, because he says the CL greens were lit? Sorry, BOAC, that's a hard-ball call.
So do do we ignore that evidence? As some ignore the visual evidence (daylight photo) that shows CL lighting?
As an observer of this thread from the outset, I find it fascinating how people selectively use "evidence". Let's hope the AAIB and whoever else are more intrusive.
So Charlie210 is either a liar or a plant, because he says the CL greens were lit? Sorry, BOAC, that's a hard-ball call.
So do do we ignore that evidence? As some ignore the visual evidence (daylight photo) that shows CL lighting?
As an observer of this thread from the outset, I find it fascinating how people selectively use "evidence". Let's hope the AAIB and whoever else are more intrusive.
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Gerald D
I agree, there is some kind of a structure ahead of the left turn and on the left side. However, even the largest amplification of the area on Google Earth does not allow any save clues.
Guess we need some picture taken from a cockpit and well ahead of the taxiway split to get a better picture.
But, as a remark that came up with different post to this thread, if TWY "M" is only usable for aircraft beeing towed to that parking apron - as was mentioned by others - the question arises if it is correct to classify it as a taxiway. Also different statements exist, wether or not that access taxilane?? has a centreline lighting or not.
If all of this is negative, than the more the question arises about the correct marking of the taxiway "B" perimeter lines at that split. I tend to believe that either that right side line of the taxiway should be drawn like the standard marking line or at least as a broken / dotted line to clearly indicate the path of TWY "B".
Guess we need some picture taken from a cockpit and well ahead of the taxiway split to get a better picture.
But, as a remark that came up with different post to this thread, if TWY "M" is only usable for aircraft beeing towed to that parking apron - as was mentioned by others - the question arises if it is correct to classify it as a taxiway. Also different statements exist, wether or not that access taxilane?? has a centreline lighting or not.
If all of this is negative, than the more the question arises about the correct marking of the taxiway "B" perimeter lines at that split. I tend to believe that either that right side line of the taxiway should be drawn like the standard marking line or at least as a broken / dotted line to clearly indicate the path of TWY "B".
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In all my time taxing around JNB, those green centreline lights at the intersection have only been used on rare occasions in nearly 20 years, and that was most probably during declared "Low-Viz" operations.
The rest of the time they are switched off, interesting challenge to hear the "clunk" of every light as one taxi's over them whilst in the corner.
The rest of the time they are switched off, interesting challenge to hear the "clunk" of every light as one taxi's over them whilst in the corner.
OverRun
It is a taxiway, TWY Mike, and is shown as such on the FAOR AERODROME GROUND MOVEMENT CHART AD-02 12 DEC 2013. From this chart, an extract shows it coming off TWY Bravo.
It is a taxiway, TWY Mike, and is shown as such on the FAOR AERODROME GROUND MOVEMENT CHART AD-02 12 DEC 2013. From this chart, an extract shows it coming off TWY Bravo.
10-1P
Airport Briefing
1.4 TAXI PROCEDURES
"Pilots have to exercise CAUTION when taxiing on TWY B as the Apron M extends immediately South of TWY B."
According to that it is not a taxiway, but part of Apron M. If it has no blue taxiway edge lights, this is further confirmation they had actually entered an Apron area and were not on a designated taxiway.
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The Caution near the top of the chart refers to the taxiway near the bottom of the chart.......
While the Note near the bottom of the chart refers to a position near the top of the chart........
Not exactly clever positioning
http://www.caa.co.za/resource%20cent...DEC%202013.pdf
1. ACFT to exercise caution when taxiing on
TWY B southbound to THR RWY 03L due to
Apron taxilane M extending from TWY B in a
Southerly direction
TWY B southbound to THR RWY 03L due to
Apron taxilane M extending from TWY B in a
Southerly direction
2. TWY C from TWY N intersection to THR 21R
is restricted to MAX Code C ACFT, ACFT with
Wingspan of up to but not including 36m or
outer main gear Wheelspan of < 9m.
is restricted to MAX Code C ACFT, ACFT with
Wingspan of up to but not including 36m or
outer main gear Wheelspan of < 9m.
Not exactly clever positioning
http://www.caa.co.za/resource%20cent...DEC%202013.pdf
Annex14
That is exactly what I didn´t say. I continue to believe that this special movement at that special spot on the aerodrome required a close and vigilent monitoring.
That is exactly what I didn´t say. I continue to believe that this special movement at that special spot on the aerodrome required a close and vigilent monitoring.
Sir Richard
The Caution near the top of the chart refers to the taxiway near the bottom of the chart.......
Not exactly clever positioning
The Caution near the top of the chart refers to the taxiway near the bottom of the chart.......
Not exactly clever positioning
What would be decidedly NOT clever would be to scatter Cautions in squeezed-down tiny text form around on busy charts in order be proximate to where they physically are. The point of a list is to make it easy. Is it too much of an expectation for us pilots to read a big, boxed list and find where the item is and consider if it will apply to us? Using this chart we don't even have to look at another page to do it, it's right in front of our noses.
lookoutbelow
If they were parked on an unfamiliar stand/area of the apron then one would think that more than just a cursory review of the unfamiliar taxi route would have been completed in the pre-flight briefing. As has been mentioned a thorough monotone line by line briefing of the EXPECTED taxi out route can be of limited benefit (especially in China!) as the route issued can and will often change depending on other traffic movements which by it's nature is dynamic, not to mention other variable factors.
If they were parked on an unfamiliar stand/area of the apron then one would think that more than just a cursory review of the unfamiliar taxi route would have been completed in the pre-flight briefing. As has been mentioned a thorough monotone line by line briefing of the EXPECTED taxi out route can be of limited benefit (especially in China!) as the route issued can and will often change depending on other traffic movements which by it's nature is dynamic, not to mention other variable factors.
In this case, if the pilots were sitting there considering what they could expect they could easily see TWY A or TWY B were possible, and TWY B is referred to in the Caution/Restriction box on the chart that could be talked about at that time instead of after receiving their taxi clearance when all of the aforementioned duties/distractions/time pressure applies. Consider a situation where they were initially cleared on A, but were subsequently changed over to B during taxi but had done their familiarization homework and had briefed that and it's Caution warning as one of the likely possibilities. It's far better to have considered the information beforehand than trusting it will sink in on the fly.
Call it what you want. If you're hung up on "expected routing" then call it an "Airport Brief", but mentally if you're familiarizing yourself with the airport it would be the height of switching your brain off if you didn't mentally transpose what could affect you on your way to the runway and not consider the traps, let alone big Caution/Restriction notes. Even if one peruses the chart and sees the Caution and realizes this could be one of the possibilities that could be pertinent to them, why wouldn't you brief the other guy/girl?
Last edited by PukinDog; 31st Dec 2013 at 00:54.
Originally Posted by Pukin Dog
According to that it is not a taxiway, but part of Apron M. If it has no blue taxiway edge lights, this is further confirmation they had actually entered an Apron area and were not on a designated taxiway.
What would be decidedly NOT clever would be to scatter Cautions in squeezed-down tiny text form around on busy charts in order be proximate to where they physically are.
Capn Bloggs
Who believes Jeppesen? The ZA CAA diagram clearly shows the Mike apron is over 300m away, down taxilane Mike and then off to the side.
Who believes Jeppesen? The ZA CAA diagram clearly shows the Mike apron is over 300m away, down taxilane Mike and then off to the side.
Both Jeppesen and the ZA agree with respect to what's pertinent to us pilots taxiing aircraft: that this intersection is one to use Caution when approaching, and do not mistake what lies straight ahead (taxilane M to Apron M or apron M extension, who cares) with TWY B.
And as someone pointed out, the lack of blue taxiway lights along the the apron lane is also a big indicator a taxiway didn't lie straight ahead. So would the fact that the chart depicts that to stay on Bravo it means making the first and only left turn south of India, and that turn is a dogleg (the only one) which is a pavement cue. There is also a Cat2 holding point depicted for 03L point on Bravo just beyond that split and those have illuminated red signs, so also could have quite possibly have been in view at the dogleg.
If one reads the Cautions listed when times/duties aren't a factor, and upon finding one that could absolutely affect you, one would try to sort out other ways you can mitigate the threat and maintain SA when it presents itself. The other cues I listed might be some of those identifiers to confirm position in the big picture. How do you deal with finding your way at an airport when snowpack and/or snowbanks are covering or obscuring almost everything we rely on, and therefore almost every correct intersection or split becomes difficult to identify?
There's plenty of space on the ZA CAA chart to put the caution/note about Mike beside it.
Last edited by PukinDog; 31st Dec 2013 at 02:36.
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Another piece of Swiss cheese that I did not know even existed. Unfortunately for the BA crew, one of its holes might have lined up with holes in the other pieces of Swiss cheese. Thanks to BOAC, Gerald D. & others (and myself), it is now uncovered.
No, that box is not there on my screen. Here is a picture of the chart from my screen:
I have been playing around trying to establish what happened. I have no doubt that the box described above IS ACTUALLY THERE and I have just seen it on another of my computers. What has got me worried is that it is not there on my screen.
I thought a .pdf file was pretty bullet-proof. I am sure that the South African authorities published the chart in good faith including all the warnings that they thought were needed. I downloaded it in good faith and opened it up, and obviously expected to find all that I needed. But I didn’t. I hadn’t realised that there was a gap in the system such that a .pdf file might not show everything. I am not sure that a .pdf file should be considered bullet-proof anymore. That is more than a bit worrying for all of us who rely on .pdf files to see charts, AIPs, ICAO manuals, etc.
I think I have tracked down some of the relevant issues which include the software that converted the drawing to a .pdf, and the publishing process of the .pdf. Rather than let get this thread side-tracked by Adobe issues, I suggest that if anyone wants to discuss those aspects then PM me or open a new thread in Tech Log. BTW – I am running Acrobat X pro, Windows 7 on all my machines.
On that same chart, there is another box at the top titled CAUTION / RESTRICTION and the first point therein is:
1. ACFT to exercise caution when taxiing on TWY B southbound to THR RWY 03L due to Apron taxilane M extending from TWY B in a Southerly direction.
1. ACFT to exercise caution when taxiing on TWY B southbound to THR RWY 03L due to Apron taxilane M extending from TWY B in a Southerly direction.
I have been playing around trying to establish what happened. I have no doubt that the box described above IS ACTUALLY THERE and I have just seen it on another of my computers. What has got me worried is that it is not there on my screen.
I thought a .pdf file was pretty bullet-proof. I am sure that the South African authorities published the chart in good faith including all the warnings that they thought were needed. I downloaded it in good faith and opened it up, and obviously expected to find all that I needed. But I didn’t. I hadn’t realised that there was a gap in the system such that a .pdf file might not show everything. I am not sure that a .pdf file should be considered bullet-proof anymore. That is more than a bit worrying for all of us who rely on .pdf files to see charts, AIPs, ICAO manuals, etc.
I think I have tracked down some of the relevant issues which include the software that converted the drawing to a .pdf, and the publishing process of the .pdf. Rather than let get this thread side-tracked by Adobe issues, I suggest that if anyone wants to discuss those aspects then PM me or open a new thread in Tech Log. BTW – I am running Acrobat X pro, Windows 7 on all my machines.
OverRun
Another piece of Swiss cheese that I did not know even existed. Unfortunately for the BA crew, one of its holes might have lined up with holes in the other pieces of Swiss cheese. Thanks to BOAC, Gerald D. & others (and myself), it is now uncovered.
Another piece of Swiss cheese that I did not know even existed. Unfortunately for the BA crew, one of its holes might have lined up with holes in the other pieces of Swiss cheese. Thanks to BOAC, Gerald D. & others (and myself), it is now uncovered.
Not a bogus chart, a software glitch - either in Adobe or in the device being used to view the chart. I've seen this before - a pdf that displays fine on one device but not another. In my case it was obvious that part of the pdf was missing, but not so obvious here.
That's why using COTS software in aviation is so risky (and why doing even a minor change to Level A flight critical s/w can cost over a $million).
That's why using COTS software in aviation is so risky (and why doing even a minor change to Level A flight critical s/w can cost over a $million).
I was surprised that that chart is so complex, PDF-wise; it also needed the East Asian language pack. 
At 1.7mb, I wouldn't want to have all of the ZA charts stored on my tablet.
On closer examination, the southern-most "B" is aligned the same as the northern "B"; that could be misconstrued as meaning B is straight-ahead... Had the southern "B" been typed/located around the taxiway further, it would be more obvious "B" turns the corner.
At 1.7mb, I wouldn't want to have all of the ZA charts stored on my tablet.
On closer examination, the southern-most "B" is aligned the same as the northern "B"; that could be misconstrued as meaning B is straight-ahead... Had the southern "B" been typed/located around the taxiway further, it would be more obvious "B" turns the corner.
Sometimes I have to remind myself that in certain cases, myth-narratives are created for consumption by any journalists who may be reading this site, and not meant for serious consideration by thinking people.