UK JAR info

[allovertheplace]

Hey All

I am looking into doing my UK JAR!!! Does anyone have firsthand experience with oxford and any idea how much the ATP validation will cost me. How are the employment options with only a South African passport and a JAR ATPL in Europe! Is it worth all the hard work???!!??

Regards
Allovertheplace

[MrBernoulli]

A South African passport is one thing but to live and work in Europe you will have to establishthe RIGHT to do so. Is that something that you can do?

[organ donor]

I don't know if you can validate over there, you will most likely have to write the exams again and do a flight test.
Oxford is great, I did my JAR ATP there and had a ball. The course is 9 months full time and costs about 6000 pounds You can opt for distance learning, buying the books will cost you a couple thou, but the exams are much harder than the SA ones so unless you have brains its best to go to college. You will have to get accommodation etc while you are there so there are the usual added costs.
If you have good hours I don't see any train smash in getting work, apart from permit issues. If you have low hours - don't bother, there are literally thousands of them there looking for work, and if you can't speak french, dutch, german etc you are pretty much restricted to the UK, and lets face it, who wants to live there.
Best of luck.

[Marcus the wise]

Busy with my JAA license. I have had experience with the system there,very professional. For a validation you need to have some serious time though, to be considered you will need minimum 3000 hrs medium jet or above, 1500 hours PIC on medium jets, 500 hours on current type and that type must be flown in Europe. This just allows you to be considered for a validation.I know some companies are against validated licenses. So proberbly the best route is to write the exams, either with Oxford Training or Bristol. Oxford is a very professional school and is very well respected as a training school with the airlines in Europe. Bristol has a good distance learning programme. Be prepared to fork out lots of cash to do your JAA license. The cost of the distance learning programme is in the region of 900-1200 pounds but some schoools require you to have a class 1 JAA medical to register.Your initial class 1 JAA medical must be done at a British CAA facility in Britain, no exceptions. That will set you back another 350 pounds. Then of course you need to get there so count in the cost of an air ticket. There is a shortage of experienced pilots there but not all companies will help you get a work permit so having the right to work in Europe is a huge advantage. It is a long road to get the license but I believe it is well worth it. Good luck

[allovertheplace]

Yes, thats actualy what I mean. I want to convert my SACAA license to a JAR license. That means that I actualy would go and write the exams! Willing to go and sit there for a year of groundschool and finish the whole thing.

Just want to know, if I go over and sit in for grounschool, write the exams and do the flight test, ballpark figure, how much would this set me back and is it worth going it all???

If I then get the JAR, what would be the chances of getting into a company like MK if I have 500 hrs Beech1900 and 2000 hrs TT.

thx for all the help...

[GgW]

I think MK wants 500 hrs multi crew, if you want to convert you will also need to do a MCC , and ATP sujects fulltime takes 5 months not a year. But all of that, is easy compair to get a job in europe without a EU passport.

No EU PASSPORT , almost impossible to get a airline job in Europe.

[Marcus the wise]

Howzit again.
With regards to the costs of getting the JAA license full time I can tell you it is VERY!! expensive. You are looking in the region of 20 000 pounds. There are ways to cut the costs but how you will only figure those out once you have gone there and done some research.

These are the costs that you can work in the region of:
Ground school in the region of 6000 pounds.
Accomodation and living expenses average 1000-1500 pounds per months, times 9 months ( 9000-13 500 pounds)
You will have do do Multi crew co operation course, 4000 pounds.
Exams are around 80 pounds each, 14 of them, 1120 pounds if you pass all the first time.
Flight training, work on around 15 hours, 180 pounds for single and 300-500 pounds multi with instructor. So in the region of 4500 pounds.
Flight test and license in the region of 500 pounds and JAA class 1 medical 350 pounds.
So you can see it will cost a whopping 20 000 pounds on average if you go full time. With the current ZAR exchange rate that is in the region of R280 000!!.
With regards to multi crew course, you can get excemption from it if you have 500 multi crew time, but a lot of companies still require it no matter what your experience is. A B1900 or B200 is not considered a multi crew aircraft by JAA.
If you go full time I will recommend Oxford, they seem to have a very good reputation with the airlines when it comes to training pilots. Bristol is more well known for its distance learning programmes. If you go disatnce learning both Oxford and Bristol provide good distance learning programmes.
When it comes to employment,the market is good. Most young pilots will get employed with around 500-1000 hours and a frozen ATPL in a regional or low cost carrier. They usually fly new modern aircraft, 737-800 or A320 or similiar types. Ryanair and EasyJet, have self sponsered programmes for low time pilots (i.e 3000 or less). Other companies will usually bond you around 3 years.
With regards to work permits is is definelty a HUGE advantage to have a EU passport. I know Ryanair do organise work VISA's for DEC only but that is dependant on there needs. I know there is a company in Ireland that hires foreigners who are rated on the ATR, they will organise a work permit for you. MK is interested in JAA rated Saffers, but I guess that all depends on what there demand is.

I believe it is worth it, the market there is good. The time to command is quick and you fly nice new modern equipment in a 1st world country. The employment market is large and the is a shortage of experienced pilots.
Perhaps the best thing to do before you go there and fork of the money is to contact some of the training schools and airlines and see what there policy is regarding the hiring of foreigners. Then you will have an idea of wether it is worth the time and money.
So good luck, if you want more info just post it and I will see if I can help.

[allovertheplace]

Thanx Marcus. You are truly wise with the very helpfull advice. Now, the next question. How does the distance learning course work and can I do it here in SA and then just go over for the exams and the training. I suppose the distance learning program would be half as cheap as the full time groudschool?!?

What is the actual flight training requirements?

Thanx for all the advice.

Regards

[south coast]

As said before, IF YOU DONT HAVE THE RIGHT TO LIVE AND WORK IN THE EU, there really is no point coming to Europe and doing the JAR thing if you dont have that right.

[allovertheplace]

I AM SOON TO BE MARRIED AND WILL THEN OBTAIN THE RIGHT TO LIVE IN THE UK..THEN ONLY A FEW MILES DOWN THE LINE TO GET THE RIGHT TO WORK IN THE UK TOO!!!

But I would rather go fly for MK if I do get the chance and stay in sunny SA!

[Marcus the wise]

Howzit again
The flight training requirements I believe are this, that you will have do a minimum of 15 hours ATPL preparation at a certified flight school if you have a foreign license. That flight school will during that time decide if you are ready for you test. I do know of some SA pilots that have got away with some sim dual and then done that JAA ATPL test in a level D sim. But that was due to the fact that they were flying large category transport aircraft and the sim was the same aircraft as they fly
With regards to work permits, I do know 2 SA guys that when't to fly ATR's in Ireland and as far as I know they did not have EU passports and the company organised work permits. But just remember that is the excemption not the rule. I guess it will largely depend on what country you are going to work in and who you work for.
I must agree with South Coast though, without a EU passport you will really struggle and it may not be worth it. There are ways round it, i.e. working for MK and living in Britian for 5 years will help you get a work permit. But as I have said do the research before you commit that amount of money as it might not pay off without an EU passport.

[south coast]

You certainly live up to your name.

You asked for advice, I tried to offer some, I have just re-read your posts and no where did you say you would be marrying someone which would then entitle you to work in the EU.

So, chill out and perhaps think about offering all the facts when asking a question.

[GgW]

Getting married does not give you the unlimited right to work in the EU. When you marry a Brit you will get a spousal visum ( you can work in the UK only )and only after 3 years you can start to apply for the British Passport. Bearing in mind it takes up to 6 months just to get the book. So if I where you wait till you get the passport before you start spending thousand on a JAR ticket.

[allovertheplace]

Sorry South Coast. I went a bit aggro there. What Im trying to say is what Ggw has just noted now. It would actually take me a while to get the RIGHT to work in the UK(and EU for that matter) so before then I would still have to trust on my uglee green passport to enable me to earn the dough!

The initial question was:

How does the distance learning course work and can I do it here in SA and then just go over for the exams and the training. I suppose the distance learning program would be half as cheap as the full time groudschool?!?

What's the actual flight training requirements?


I have since been in contact with bristol and they have sent me all the info needed. I should start with the course next year sometime!

Thank you fellow ppruners for helpfull advice....you all are worthy to be good barmen!!!

[cavortingcheetah]

Might one suggest that before you slosh out a lot of money you have a JAA initial Class 1 medical?
Might one further be so bold as to suggest that you investigate some form of European or UK based loss of licence or medical insurance?
BALP and its magazine, The Log, could perhaps help you with this.
The rough estimate of £20k is quite probably about right. The employment cycle for experienced pilots in England is booming at the moment. However, standards and requirements have been lowered by airlines in order to cater for today's shortage of pilots. In another year or two the cycle will have swung. All today's first officers will be captains and they will all be far younger than the generation of pilots that they are replacing. This means that if airline expansion slows down, as it will, there will be a glut of captains and thus, of course, a corresponding plethora of first officers. You do not have unlimited time to achieve a first class job.

[south coast]

Apology accepted.

I converted my SA licence to the JAR one.

You can do it either distance learning or full time, just depends on how disciplined you are at studying.

As for the flying, it will be hours as required for both the CPL and IR.

What you will end up with is a CPL/IR (ME or SE depending on what you do it on).

You will need 500 hours Multi Crew time and a Multi Pilot Type Rating and then an ATPL skills test, although your initial Multi Pilot Type Rating will count as as the ATPL skills test too.

You will also need the MCC to be completed or you can send in a letter and your log book and request an exemption.

I would hazard a guess, 15k pounds would cover it.

Market is booming here!

[Irene]

Am also in the process of doing my JAR and after emails and telephone calls with the British CAA as well as a few flight schools (including Bristol) I have learnt the following:

If you hold an ICAO ATPL(i.e SACAA ATPL), you need not sit the JAR ground school, you can buy the CD from Bristol ground school. Ground school costs 2000 pounds, CD costs around 500 pounds and extra 50 pounds to have three months access to online typical exam questions. Once you have the exams, then all the above comments and quotations around the flight training are not far off the true whack of the cost.

Regarding trying use 500 multi-crew hours on aircraft like the B200 and 1900, I have learnt the following, and find two relevant quotes from the LASORS 2007 documents from the British CAA:

One of the JAR ATPL requirements: "500 hours Multi-Pilot operations on aeroplanes type certificated in accordance with the JAR/FAR-25 Transport Category or the JAR/FAR-23 Commuter Category or equivalent code, or
single-pilot aeroplanes operated by 2-pilotsaccording to operational requirements."

And regarding the MCC:

"Note: Experience gained in single-pilot certificated aeroplanes that are operated with a crew of two or more will not normally be accepted
towards the 500 hour requirement but may be considered in certain circumstances (i.e. where national law requires such operation)."

Some guys think that just because the client requires two crew that it becomes a two crew aeroplane and you can log the hours towards a higher licence, this is not true. I am presently flying for an operator who is operating the 200 and 1900 under SACAA authorised multi-crew due to the operational requirements here in Afghanistan. I have had to find this out and get it in writing from the SACAA so that I can count 50% of the right hand seat hours I have here towards my SA ATPL (a lengthy and frustrating process that has taken over 9 months for the company to get).

Most operators of the 200 and 1900 do not have this 'stamp of approval' from the CAA and the pilots are being screwed by sitting in the right seat and not being able to count the hours towards anything but total time. The very important part to this is what the arrangement is between the CAA and your operator on this subject, as well as what is in your approved manual of procedure. This has a direct bearing on your chances of the UKCAA accepting some of or all of those hours as multi-crew.

I am South African, have lived in SA my whole life, but am one of those lucky that have a British Passport. What the others say here about getting work in the UK without that document is so true, especially with new terrorism laws making it even harder for foreigners. I have many friends and family members to testify to this fact. Having said that, aviation companies seem to be quite desperate for experience, so a work visa may come your way if you are in the right place and the right time.

[sawaya]

hi all over the place, with regarding work in the EU i am a kenyan passport holder married to a swede we are currently living in switzerland i have the right to live and work in switzerland and sweden but still many of the companies take nothing short of EU passport,i think the reason the right to move freely around the world.

[hotmj43]

It DEPENDS WHAT YOUR QUALIFICATIONS ARE, EG IF YOU HAVE 1500 HOURS ON EQUIPMENT OVER 30T,pic,ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS AIRLAW HUMAN FACTORS AND RT, A check ride with a CAA inspector on the jump seat observing your skills test.This route only gives you a UK ATPL,the Full JAR is an assessment of your hours in your Log book, equipment flown.
Oxford would be good but expensive,remember they do the Airline sponsorship
route,with the Private chap like you, coming and going,Last i heard big money.

[hotmj43]

Nail on the money sir,Damn right no one wants to hear about you going to get a visa etci speak from experince on this