Deskjocky

Your loyalty is admirable, if you are prepared to subjugate your -and more importantly your family’s- financial future so that ol Uncle Vern can buy a new racing Porsche then good for you!

Something that is coming clearly out in this forum over the last few weeks is that there is a lot of crew getting shafted by certain local airlines- this is all good and well when the labour market is stagnant but right now its not and these carriers are going to pay a dear price for their behaviour. My guess is that there will probably be between 60 and 80 jet positions becoming available next year in the local market- there is no doubt in my mind where these candidates will come from.

The lesson to be learnt is as an employer, flight deck loyalty will come from 3 things:
1-Fair market related remuneration with full benefits like pension and medical aid.
2-An organised operational infrastructure where rostering is predicable and transparent. Flight and Duty limits are respected and planned for. Days off are exactly that.
3-Clearly defined career pathing where seniority coupled to ability will dictate who gets promoted. Keep nepotism out at all costs.

Im sure there is more but if you have the above in place then I doubt you are going to have much turn over in your ranks which in turn is going to drive costs down.

Shrike200

I give in to the temptation! Here's my original response, shooting from the hip:

Oh, you were being serious! I'll bite! In cases like this, I would normally ask "Whats the atmosphere like - UP YOUR OWN ASS?!", but last time I got banned for that, so I won't ask you that! (Yes 4HP, my inbuilt EGPWS is saying 'Caution - Terrain ahead!')
Amazingly enough, almost every single one of your sentences is out of touch with reality, ie just plain wrong. I'm giving you credit for the "Be carefull guys its hard out there in dark africa" (sic), since I do agree with that one (been there for several years).
Let me explain:
So do a lot of people, myself included. Thats why nobodies biting anybody (unless you count the crew being bitten in the ass by Nwide).
Actually, they're too busy flying to the absolute legal limit. Let me try and explain things another way: If you got told by your company that you would be doing the same job as now, just for 1/3 of the salary, would you complain? If yes, you must be some kind of whiner (by your logic)! If no, you must be some kind of loser (my opinion).
As I said, flying to the absolute legal limit, accepting work on non-required (but scheduled) off days at the last moment despite whatever plans they may have had, trying to work with rostering/HR induced chaos come what may, etc. All at well below an industry average salary. And they still manage to smile! If that's not enough for you, you must be an aviation manager. And I mean that in the worst possible way. To add: Yes, I know thats not like contract work. I've done that. But nobody wants to live their lives like that, and it's also just not comparable to the alternatives out there in the local industry.
10 years or so is hardly a long time. And there are plenty of airlines a lot older that have folded or are experiencing harsh financial times. Allowing your aircraft to be grounded over the holiday season by a crew shortage can only be layed at the feet of management I'm afraid. Or having to hire contract crewmembers at crippling international rates instead of just paying your own guys a decent salary, etc etc.
Actually, the grass IS greener on the other side in this case, as reported by many of the crew who've left, and are busy leaving.
Ok, ok, I'll give you half a point for the bit about the blue sky! That's 1.5 out of 7, well done!

nugpot

I was an FO at SAX for 5 years before I became a turboprop captain. Some things take time and effort. And I had been a professional pilot for 16 years when I joined SAX.

I don't want to belittle your attempts to get paid a proper salary, but the old style Nationwide where you could get command at 3000 hrs and still in your twenties are past. BTW, you now have an ALPA branch, so use the information and expertise available in ALPA to better your cause.

four engine jock

Fight for what you want and stick to your GUNS!!!
Maybe there will be a UNION that will give all South African PILOTS what they deserve!!! Cause they are some of the best in the world ,as far as Iam concerned.
It works in Europe and in the USA!!
An FO with little hours flying for DHL (USA) takes home over $85.000.00
and cost of living is almost the same as South Africa.
Salaries in South Africa are way below what they should be (and with that i have to agree.)

Maybe the Big boys will learn some day.

Just a thought guys!!!

FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hope that you guys are not to upset.

KEEP THE BLUE SKY UP!!!

OVER AND OUT!!!!

contraxdog

4EJ,
Just as I suspected you are a communist.
I dont know if you noticed, but communism didn't work. Capitalism did, or should I say is still working.
You know, it might be news to you but your union, did do a lot to create the situation GA is in at the moment. a Union thats fed and maintained by those that don't really need it. a Union that help to create the situation where the rich, retired, are used to create a situation where employee abuse is condoned, advancement is stunted, and the acceptance of a subsidized income is given as the norm. A union that protects the wealthy and allow them to take away from the less privileged.

Lets call a spade a spade.

Your union, has never raised an eyebrow to any currently employed airline employees, that offer his services in the GA market, or does it?
In fact all the currently airline employed, pilots that I had to fly with the last year in GA were infact all members of "The UNION"

Your union has never spoken up against very rich bored retired ex 747 captains, supplementing their massive pensions by working as Captains for Nationwide, Mango etc. upon reaching retirement age or have they.

Due to this practice and the lack of advancement Nationwide FO's are moonlighting to make ends meet.(just look at he requirements for P1 at Nationwide. It was written to fit one of the fossils!, Maybe by one of them as well)

Your union has made sure that the average pilot age in SA is much (or should I say very much) older than that in Europe and the US.

Look at he salary differences between the the National Carrier and the "other" Airlines. From the salary structures of the respective companies one could surmise that the National Carrier is the highest profit earner, by far. But low and behold, one could not be further from the truth. They have the strongest union though!

Supply and demand, will ultimately determine whether Nationwide will survive, whether 1 Time will start canceling flights due to crew shortages, or whether Mango will become fruit juice, not by having a strong union or not.

I will state here that if the National Carrier were to be subjected to normal market forces, unless "the union" can convince their members to take a 50% pay cut today, it wont see Xmas.

Market forces are already determining that GA companies are already moving their salary structures to a point where it will be a hard choice to leave, to join Nationwide, Safair, or 1Time. Unless it is subsidized, or done for the lifestyle. The next step is that those will have to all, up their respective salaries and better their employment practices to recruit crews, and prevent current crews leaving to GA!

None of this will be done by a union.

Wake up this is 2006. Not 1921.

And my friend, turning your sails to the wind is not an admirable trait. It shows a lack of character.

Shrike200

Nugpot, I completely agree with you. They're just struggling with the transition from one style of doing things (low pay, high turnover, and rapid command which results in a useable salary) to another (more career orientated, longer term prospects).

The problem is they've introduced the slower system without any career benefits. Therefore, they are struggling now with the usual (or worse) crew turnover problem, exacerbated by the ok job market. They should have introduced at least an attempt at some career type benefits (ie a pension for example) when they saw this coming (which they would have had to be blind to miss). Thats the problem IHMO, or at least a decent part thereof.

Hence the complaining - Nationwide could be a decent career airline, with just a bit more effort. The problem is that getting that effort from them is like pulling teeth. The old attitude is entrenched in management circles. Still, I believe that the job situation, combined with union efforts should be of benefit to the crew.

nugpot

Your points are very valid, and I must admit my dealings with Mr VB ended after the BAC1-11 groundschool, but before employment, so I am in the dark about the situation there.

SAX also had a high FO turnover, but that has changed with the employment policies of the national carrier. This caused a rethink about FO scales in 2004. Now the SFO's can afford to wait for command, although nobody wants to wait too long .

SAX has become a career airline for many and hopefully NTW can do the same. - or you can put in a CV at SAX.

Deskjocky

The best kept secret in terms of aviation employment- was there for year and loved every moment of it! after some days in this place I wish I was back there

FMC forever

How wonderful to know that the Nationwide guys received next weeks roster only now, a roster as from Monday to Friday. Do the roster clerks really know what is going on and what they are doing to all the crew. The crew are getting more fed up every day - result - to leave Nationwide to go to other airlines.

Christmas is around the corner and the crew have to tell their family they do not know where they will be Christmas and New Year.

Still want to fly for Nationwide????????

Q4NVS

By the sound of things, I think it should read: ".. to go to an AIRLINE..." not a 737 Charter company.

A very bad situation and I personally feel for the NTW guys/gals who I am sure do not deserve it...

Flyat450

Direct from the horses mouth. I flew for Ntw for some time. It is a company with incredible potensial, or shall I say it was a company with incredible potensial.
I must however stress that when any family member of mine travel, I damm well make sure it is not with Ntw. I honestly believe that it's not a question anymore of IF they have an accident, but rather WHEN. From defers which are repeated again and again, to way below standard instructors rushing to get way below standard F/o's on line, to crew flying way out of flight and duty times.
I'm absolutely surprised that Ntw is still in business. I blame the CAA for this mess. They are supposed to protect the public!!!!! Mean time, inspection after inspection, they turn a blind eye to all the issues, allowing passengers lives to be put at risk for another year.
I can only pray that somebody at the SACAA will read this, and make work of it, before we have another National Geographic movie to watch.
(This all said, I do think that they now have a fighting chance since Victoria Buxton have been fired)

Shrike200

I don't think it's quite like that anymore, and I feel I must make a defence:

- Most (if not all) training is done by Comair nowdays - I think we can agree they set high standards. Sim recurrencies/OPC's are done correctly and on time. Experienced SAA Captains do a lot of the other checks (line etc), and run the training dept.

- Most (again, if not all) new hire F/O's are at least fairly experienced compared to the 800 hr pay as you go F/O's of yesteryear, normally about 1500 hrs + ATP (normally higher experience levels), and seem to be of a good, professional standard.

- Said Captains do their level best to not get shafted, and guard against the type of defects you mention as best they can. Nobody wants to lose their licence to a Nationwide screw up, and nobody likes to see a snag passed around the aircraft. With the recent IATA audit (passed), plus some CAA audits, it's ever present in the crews minds that somebody could check them out at any stage, on any flight, or about any paperwork.

- Crew are also quite aggressive (literally) nowdays about not flying out of FDP, since the rosters became so chaotic.

- VB doesn't prowl the ramp anymore and jump on people who don't want to depart. The culture nowdays is very much 'I won't go if I feel things are unacceptable', perhaps in part due to an aggressive backlash against the old (female VB) powers that were, as well as having quite a few ex-SAA Captains flying for the company. But quite frankly, the older Nwide Captains are just as (often more) cautious.

That said, there is still quite a bit of chaos, and always room for improvement. As I said, I don't think it's as bad as you made out though, there has definately been marked advances in almost all the aspects you mentioned. You are entitled to your opinion of course, but it sounds like the facts have changed since you were there. I do agree that Nationwide is a company with great potential, which I believe it still has.

Thanks.

Anti-Skid Inop

I must agree with you Shrike.

What you have posted is the way it is now. With the new manager of Flight Operations things have already started to change for the better! Being a pilot himself (well qualified, unlike the last one), he knows what is good for the pilots as well as the company.

Hopefully it's not too late for him to plug all the holes left by the previous regime!!

I personally think things will get a heck of a lot better in the future.

Whenwe

Gosh, that did not take VB long to replace the Lady ..... almost if it were planned that way.

Is it an internal appointment?

Does any one know if she got into CAA? I know they had interviews last month.

SFO

New manager are Felix Van Der Merwe and she now a auditor for IOSA (good connections????) But then that are probably how NW passes in the first place.

Romeo E.T.

If its the Felix that flew B727's at Comair...then they got a real "gentleman" there....I hope he hasn't changed...will be good for NTW

Whenwe

After Comair he flew B727's for NTW. He was due to go to the B767 as Training Capt, but the inevitable bond may gave put him off. Did he not go to Safair then?

I know Felix well, truely a Gentleman, and I hope Vernon appreciates him.

Karooboer

Jip this one is true, it is all about sucking up and your the man!!!! A guy worked in ops and had less than a 1000 hrs of instruction on a C172, he kissed and sucked up to management and see there, a fluffy F/O and just a few more kisses and he now is a Captain. From selling little parachutes at airshows and being an opsclerk he just kissed up, so Victoria Buxton got fired and he needs a new lifeline to become fleetcaptain or CEO?????

Karooboer

Yes this is the Felix that flew, and still are flying B727, he is a true person, he just sit with one big "HILL" of a problem in nationwide!!!!!!

Deskjocky

thats what happens when you give the HR dude too much power!