Add for B737 crew in Sunday Times
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Originally Posted by Solid Rust Twotter
Urine poor....
(SAX F/O with only a comm earns more that a CE Captain)
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Originally Posted by Alternative
Anybody got info on Nationwide salaries?
VB merely continues to abuse the good work ethic of his employees, as usual. Their pilots are in the process of establishing an ALPA SA union branch. I'm told that the company, instead of welcoming the opportunity to take the chance to hammer out a negotiated improvement (and retain crew whilst improving morale), insists that it won't recognise this union, as it 'has to represent 50% of ALL company employees, not just the pilots'. This just shows that the company is engaged purely in a chain-yanking, time wasting exercise. Management seems intent on undoing some of the good work done by some people in recent history. I suppose that's what aviation management's purpose in life is though....or maybe it's just an HR function, I'm still not sure!
Thats my take, as an interested bystander.
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(SAX F/O with only a comm earns more that a CE Captain)[
Not entirely true, the Captains at NTW do earn reasonable salaries, Although not great!! They definitely earn more than a F/O with only a Comm at SAX.
The net salary of a NTW Capt (737) is about the same as the SFO3 payscale at SAX.
As for the F/O's at NTW, that's a different story!!!! Quite a shame really.
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Originally Posted by Anti-Skid Inop
As for the F/O's at NTW, that's a different story!!!! Quite a shame really.
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figures
I always find it interestesting when this topic comes up in SA that no one is prepared to quote actual figures. This info is openly discussed elsewhere in the world, for instance easyjet even publish their salaries on their website.
So how's about some "rumour" it is afterall part a remour network.
So how's about some "rumour" it is afterall part a remour network.
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Good point there GT, and I'd like that to change. I reckon we're all on the same team when it comes to that, open info does good. I know the companies often don't want the salaries they pay their crew discussed openly (because they're quite frankly terrified of the open market), so perhaps we've been brainwashed by them to a degree?
I have it on good authority that a Nationwide F/O earns about R14500 p/m basic, plus R80 per working day S&T. Tax on that will be at least R2500, so they end up clearing about R12000 p/m. I'm not sure if there are any ranks/notches along the line, or if all F/O's earn the same amount, although if there are differences based on seniority, they are few, and the difference in salary is minimal. I also have no idea about any benefits (medical etc, but I believe they do not get any form of pension).
I'm not too sure of the Captains salaries, but I believe they vary quite a bit, based on the type of contract (ie part time, full time, etc). I think a full time non-ex skygod earns about R30 000 or so p/m? Maybe slightly more.
I have it on good authority that a Nationwide F/O earns about R14500 p/m basic, plus R80 per working day S&T. Tax on that will be at least R2500, so they end up clearing about R12000 p/m. I'm not sure if there are any ranks/notches along the line, or if all F/O's earn the same amount, although if there are differences based on seniority, they are few, and the difference in salary is minimal. I also have no idea about any benefits (medical etc, but I believe they do not get any form of pension).
I'm not too sure of the Captains salaries, but I believe they vary quite a bit, based on the type of contract (ie part time, full time, etc). I think a full time non-ex skygod earns about R30 000 or so p/m? Maybe slightly more.
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Back to the age old debate about Airways' salaries. Those that claim that Airways pilots earn too much, and the airline can't make ends meet as a result, do not understand the issues at SAA.
SAA presently has one of the highest ratios of employees to aircraft. How is one supposed to make money when one is employing 2 to 3 times as many people per aircraft. I've heard approximate figures that the industry standard is around 100 employees per aircraft. SAA has around 300! Why victimise the pilots saying they earn too much? Or is it just jealousy? What about upper management that get fat bonus cheques, even when the company has a bad year! Do people not remember the Coleman Andrews era? Do people remember how much he earnt? It run into the hundreds of millions!
SAA presently has one of the highest ratios of employees to aircraft. How is one supposed to make money when one is employing 2 to 3 times as many people per aircraft. I've heard approximate figures that the industry standard is around 100 employees per aircraft. SAA has around 300! Why victimise the pilots saying they earn too much? Or is it just jealousy? What about upper management that get fat bonus cheques, even when the company has a bad year! Do people not remember the Coleman Andrews era? Do people remember how much he earnt? It run into the hundreds of millions!
Last edited by FO Gyro; 16th Aug 2006 at 14:36.
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Aircrew are generators of income while management are spenders.
Doesn't make sense to cut down on those who make money but a building full of social experiments and their secretaries appears to be OK...
Doesn't make sense to cut down on those who make money but a building full of social experiments and their secretaries appears to be OK...
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Originally Posted by Solid Rust Twotter
Aircrew are generators of income while management are spenders.
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No pilots and engineers = no aircraft fly = no revenue generated. The same could be said about other operations within the structure but I doubt any of them could do the pilots' job while the pilots and engineers could possibly muddle along in theirs. Also, no one would miss management for a fair bit until someone remarked on how smoothly things are running...
The aircrew are the workers on the coalface and while the support structure is necessary it appears much larger than it needs to be at SAA.
The aircrew are the workers on the coalface and while the support structure is necessary it appears much larger than it needs to be at SAA.
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To add to Shrike200's post.
An F/O on the long range fleet (B767) takes home a Gross Basic salary of
+/-R 25 000, added to that is an International allowance of approx R 3900 per month( depending on number of trips).
An average take home salary of +/-R 20 000 is what you can expect. Not great , but you can survive on that.
Captains on the long range fleet will average take home pay, incl International allowances, of just over+/- R30 000 average per month.
Comparing these salaries Internationally with pilots flying similar aircraft and similar routes, NTW is well below the international norm.
Hope this helps
An F/O on the long range fleet (B767) takes home a Gross Basic salary of
+/-R 25 000, added to that is an International allowance of approx R 3900 per month( depending on number of trips).
An average take home salary of +/-R 20 000 is what you can expect. Not great , but you can survive on that.
Captains on the long range fleet will average take home pay, incl International allowances, of just over+/- R30 000 average per month.
Comparing these salaries Internationally with pilots flying similar aircraft and similar routes, NTW is well below the international norm.
Hope this helps
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Originally Posted by FO Gyro
Back to the age old debate about Airways' salaries. Those that claim that Airways pilots earn too much, and the airline can't make ends meet as a result, do not understand the issues at SAA.
Helmet on, but eyes wide open.....
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Nugpot, you mean to tell me you are happy to earn peanuts. What's wrong in wanting to earn, in terms of buying power, what comparable airline pilots earn overseas. These comparable airlines are not the best paying necessarily, but are your average airlines like BA or Lufthansa? Maybe that's why Comair has had a mass exodus to Emirates. They are going there to earn more bucks.
Have you seen the salaries that CEO's earn? What in this world could possibly justify that? Do you that 20 years ago, CEO's used to earn about 25 times as much as the average worker. These days that has gone up to 63 times!
Do you want to know why Captains earn so much? Have you any idea what any SAA flight is insured for in terms of 3rd party insurance?
Try R10 500 000 000!!! It's in the AFM (Aircraft Flight Manual). Any idea of the ramifications if a Captain and his/her crew prang a A340-600 in somewhere high profile like New York or Washington? He/she is in charge of a piece of equipment worth millions and millions. It suddenly puts his/her salary into perspective. Why do people have a problem with this? What about all the fat cats in government? And as for the money brought in by actors and rock stars. I think that the western world has gone mad.
Have you seen the salaries that CEO's earn? What in this world could possibly justify that? Do you that 20 years ago, CEO's used to earn about 25 times as much as the average worker. These days that has gone up to 63 times!
Do you want to know why Captains earn so much? Have you any idea what any SAA flight is insured for in terms of 3rd party insurance?
Try R10 500 000 000!!! It's in the AFM (Aircraft Flight Manual). Any idea of the ramifications if a Captain and his/her crew prang a A340-600 in somewhere high profile like New York or Washington? He/she is in charge of a piece of equipment worth millions and millions. It suddenly puts his/her salary into perspective. Why do people have a problem with this? What about all the fat cats in government? And as for the money brought in by actors and rock stars. I think that the western world has gone mad.
Last edited by FO Gyro; 17th Aug 2006 at 16:32.
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Know what - That is HOGWASH!
The combined 3rd Party Insurance on my House and Car is R10 000 000.00, but no-one pays me for that - Infact, I have to pay that "Out" company for it...
The only people defending this, are the Fatcats themselves!
Please explain to me how the responsibility of an SAA Captain is any different from that of a Nationwide 767 Captain. (I do not agree with Vernon's salary structure either, but hey, there must be a middle way)
If a pilot group through negotiations or whatever means, can hold a company to ransom wrt this rediculous salary increase, while the company itself made a profit equalling the yearly salaries of only 45 of their "new scale" Captains, then that is absurd!
If you ask me, every single person there should take a 25% salary cut, including the CEO and cleaners, while committing themselves to making it a profitable organisation before EVER again discussing this...
Know what, within 3 years, they'll be Tops or the Fatcats gone.
Before aviation, I spent a few years in another "Professional" industry and let me tell you - If you do not like the pay or conditions, YOU go where you want (don't screw the business trying, cause it ain't gonna work).
If all these Fatcats were so IRREPLACEABLE, why then did "TULCA" not battle to find enough (or too many) applicants..?
Wake up and smell the Sh*t you're making for yourselves guys!
The combined 3rd Party Insurance on my House and Car is R10 000 000.00, but no-one pays me for that - Infact, I have to pay that "Out" company for it...
The only people defending this, are the Fatcats themselves!
Please explain to me how the responsibility of an SAA Captain is any different from that of a Nationwide 767 Captain. (I do not agree with Vernon's salary structure either, but hey, there must be a middle way)
If a pilot group through negotiations or whatever means, can hold a company to ransom wrt this rediculous salary increase, while the company itself made a profit equalling the yearly salaries of only 45 of their "new scale" Captains, then that is absurd!
If you ask me, every single person there should take a 25% salary cut, including the CEO and cleaners, while committing themselves to making it a profitable organisation before EVER again discussing this...
Know what, within 3 years, they'll be Tops or the Fatcats gone.
Before aviation, I spent a few years in another "Professional" industry and let me tell you - If you do not like the pay or conditions, YOU go where you want (don't screw the business trying, cause it ain't gonna work).
If all these Fatcats were so IRREPLACEABLE, why then did "TULCA" not battle to find enough (or too many) applicants..?
Wake up and smell the Sh*t you're making for yourselves guys!
Last edited by Q4NVS; 17th Aug 2006 at 16:49.
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Originally Posted by FO Gyro
And as for the money brought in by actors and rock stars. I think that the western world has gone mad.
Easy jet captain = about 80 000 pounds PER ANNUM Now go do the math............
SAA have good salaries because they have a strong union, which has successfully pursued the parity issue.
That aside, remuneration is generally the most emotive issue in one's chosen profession (note I say generally) and causes untold grief, wailing and gnashing of teeth when not up to spec. Why not post your salaries girls and boys, without being exactly specific, it would open up the debate and make for entertaining reading! Maybe a few CEOs would catch a hint or two.........not to mention whole bunches of carrots.
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FO Gyro - Exactly!
Know why, because Comair's union does not hold the company to ransom and if the guys are not happy they can go...
Not saying that Comair do not treat there people well though.
That is the way it works in all industries!
If you are a waiter earning R40 per day at Sousa's Fish & Chips Diner versus your brother earning R500 per day at the Hilton. Do you think Sousa will ever pay you that?
Hey, both have the same responsibilities - I mean, Food Poisoning is a Bad Thing
Know why, because Comair's union does not hold the company to ransom and if the guys are not happy they can go...
Not saying that Comair do not treat there people well though.
That is the way it works in all industries!
If you are a waiter earning R40 per day at Sousa's Fish & Chips Diner versus your brother earning R500 per day at the Hilton. Do you think Sousa will ever pay you that?
Hey, both have the same responsibilities - I mean, Food Poisoning is a Bad Thing
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Q4NVS so you reckon all the "Fatcats" (some of whom have worked for the company for more than 30 years! How many years service has the most senior Nationwide B767 captain?) and I should take a 25% pay cut and that will make the company profitable? You must be more naive than a calf on the way to the abattoir. The reason this company does not make a profit is because it is a company run by incompetent managers who are unable or unwilling to bow to their political masters. That is it. Once again you get paid what you negotiate no more no less. The pilots salaries are not what costs SAA.
Please tell me why you think I should take a 25% paycut? If you are a pilot why isn't your thinking more along the lines of we should all be paid along the lines of the company that sets the benchmark?
It is precisely this "woe is me, I need the hours so I'll fly for free attitude" that makes pilots in this country so capable of shooting ourselves in both feet.
TULCA got applicants for this reason only - if everyone rejected the offer and said no if we fly SAA aircraft and SAA routes we want the same pay, then SAA would have no choice but to abandon this folly money wasting exercise and hire more pilots creating movement throughout the industry.
Why is it that you never hear SAA pilots slagging off the other airlines pilots or companies the way you seem to do? Please don't give me the taxpayer crap cos I don't see you slagging the CEO of Telkom/SABC/Portnet/SARS/ etc etc.
Please tell me why you think I should take a 25% paycut? If you are a pilot why isn't your thinking more along the lines of we should all be paid along the lines of the company that sets the benchmark?
It is precisely this "woe is me, I need the hours so I'll fly for free attitude" that makes pilots in this country so capable of shooting ourselves in both feet.
TULCA got applicants for this reason only - if everyone rejected the offer and said no if we fly SAA aircraft and SAA routes we want the same pay, then SAA would have no choice but to abandon this folly money wasting exercise and hire more pilots creating movement throughout the industry.
Why is it that you never hear SAA pilots slagging off the other airlines pilots or companies the way you seem to do? Please don't give me the taxpayer crap cos I don't see you slagging the CEO of Telkom/SABC/Portnet/SARS/ etc etc.