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Originally Posted by The Actuator
The reason this company does not make a profit is because it is a company run by incompetent managers who are unable or unwilling to bow to their political masters...
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Not slagging SAA Pilots (at ALL)...
But, a total Salary Budget increase in excess of R300 Million per year (modest figures), with no "real" increase in efficiency or productivity by those who demands it...
If I was a Shareholder in such a company, I would probably consider shutting it down (and maybe start a "new" one two weeks later). But hey, I'm not a Shareholder, so what do I know about Business Economics 101.
I think I have made my point and I choose to stand by it.
Fly Safe
But, a total Salary Budget increase in excess of R300 Million per year (modest figures), with no "real" increase in efficiency or productivity by those who demands it...
If I was a Shareholder in such a company, I would probably consider shutting it down (and maybe start a "new" one two weeks later). But hey, I'm not a Shareholder, so what do I know about Business Economics 101.
I think I have made my point and I choose to stand by it.
Fly Safe
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Originally Posted by Q4NVS
I think I have made my point and I choose to stand by it.
Market forces, union power, politics.......all's fair in love and war. If, on the other hand, you are attempting to make the point that the taxpayer has a personal stake in the national carrier's affairs - well, that is possibly more valid. Perhaps the 'age 60' issue will also become a factor - after all, a newly-promoted 'Bus skipper will certainly earn less than a 60+ long serving one.
(Not to mention FOs spending more time in the right seat............)
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I can't help thinking with some of the comments made wrt salaries, depending on which side of the fence one is, that with some guys, there is a general feeling of JEALOUSY, and RESENTMENT that they didn't get into SAA. The tone of the comments bear testimony to this. Names like "Skygods" are childish. Maybe all those that didn't make it should be called the "Skypaupers". THIS IS ONLY DIRECTED AT THOSE THAT USE THESE TERMS!
What they don't realise is that if SAA pilots earn peanuts, so will every other airline and charter pilot. Like it or not, SAA does form the benchmark for pilots salaries. They don't realise they are shooting themselves in the foot. Is that all you guys think you are worth? Your worth is negotiated. If you think you are worth little, someone will pay you little. Why do you think song artists get paid so much? Not because the recording company wants to pay them that, its because they demand it! They know there is a large price tag to pay for someone of that calibre. Why target SAA pilots and say they should drop 25% in salaries, when SAA is employing far too many employees. SAA is extremely top heavy. Younger, leaner companies don't have this problem. The same pilots that call SAA guys "Fatcats" and "Skygods" change their tune very quickly when they get in at SAA. Funny hey!
What they don't realise is that if SAA pilots earn peanuts, so will every other airline and charter pilot. Like it or not, SAA does form the benchmark for pilots salaries. They don't realise they are shooting themselves in the foot. Is that all you guys think you are worth? Your worth is negotiated. If you think you are worth little, someone will pay you little. Why do you think song artists get paid so much? Not because the recording company wants to pay them that, its because they demand it! They know there is a large price tag to pay for someone of that calibre. Why target SAA pilots and say they should drop 25% in salaries, when SAA is employing far too many employees. SAA is extremely top heavy. Younger, leaner companies don't have this problem. The same pilots that call SAA guys "Fatcats" and "Skygods" change their tune very quickly when they get in at SAA. Funny hey!
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The same pilots that call SAA guys "Fatcats" and "Skygods" change their tune very quickly when they get in at SAA. Funny hey!
It's amazing how many pms and emails one gets from those same people who slate SAA, when they are trying to get in.
If the non-Skygods wonder why so few Skygods are active on this board, maybe they should look towards their own behaviour. As much as one has a right to express one's own opinion, so one also has the right to ignore the constant whining and carping on of those who are "wannabes", or even the non-wannabes, who are not, therefore, directly affected.
As for calls for a 25% paycut, that is a serious cheek, coming from someone who is not involved. Do you also ask your doctor for a discount when you are lying in the trauma room?
It's amazing how many pms and emails one gets from those same people who slate SAA, when they are trying to get in.
If the non-Skygods wonder why so few Skygods are active on this board, maybe they should look towards their own behaviour. As much as one has a right to express one's own opinion, so one also has the right to ignore the constant whining and carping on of those who are "wannabes", or even the non-wannabes, who are not, therefore, directly affected.
As for calls for a 25% paycut, that is a serious cheek, coming from someone who is not involved. Do you also ask your doctor for a discount when you are lying in the trauma room?
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Originally Posted by FO Gyro
What they don't realise is that if SAA pilots earn peanuts, so will every other airline and charter pilot. Like it or not, SAA does form the benchmark for pilots salaries.
You might also look at the history of the SAA renumeration structure. Both the EFP and MOP agreements were negotiated before SAA had to stand on their own feet as a business and when the company was well protected by high placed individuals in government. Money was no object and SAAPA did a very good job of exploiting this situation. I do not complain about SAA salaries. I am quite happy with what I earn at another airline. I merely state the obvious. In the SA context, R 2 million per year gives you a much higher standard of living than any other senior captain in the world. Just look at how many SAA captains (in fact, even FO's) own aircraft and holiday homes , and compare that to international standards.
Obviously, SAAPA would be stupid to allow a salary cut in isolation, but please don't come here and tell me that you are worth every penny - that is untrue and insulting. SAA pilots have a lifestyle (hours worked) and pay package (disposable income after basics) second to none in the world.
I would go to SAA for the money, but that is also just exploiting the situation. I can never argue that SAA salaries are market related in the SA context.
An SAA captain is NOT a rockstar, CEO or actor. He is a pilot - compare him with other pilots.
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Originally Posted by nugpot
In the SA context, R 2 million per year gives you a much higher standard of living than any other senior captain in the world. Just look at how many SAA captains (in fact, even FO's) own aircraft and holiday homes , and compare that to international standards.
As for exploiting the situation - hey, money makes the world go round! Human nature being what it is, don't expect things to change.
Sit back and enjoy the ride - if you have a flying job and enjoy it, have enought to eat, a roof, wheels, holidays, some travel perks - well there you go!
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Nugpot, it's a pity you would feel unworthy to earn that type of salary. Do you not value yourself more, or feel that you hold an important job, on a par with any senior manager. If you feel that pilots are only glorified truck bus drivers, then that's a shame.
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Originally Posted by FO Gyro
Nugpot, it's a pity you would feel unworthy to earn that type of salary. Do you not value yourself more, or feel that you hold an important job, on a par with any senior manager. If you feel that pilots are only glorified truck bus drivers, then that's a shame.
Enough about that. What I neglected to say earlier was that I don't wish a paycut on anyone. I understand the sentiment of some af the other pilots on here though. We see the financials of our companies every year and we see the effect of aircrew salaries on the bottom line.
As an SAA pilot, take your money, live your life and protect what you have, but don't try to justify your worth. You are the beneficiary of an historical pay system that is out of touch with reality.
Pilots at other airlines work harder for less. Their companies don't get 12 billion rand bale-outs from government. They are not at SAA because of the colour of their skin, not because they are not worthy. An international captain at SAA flies maybe 66 legs a year and carries maybe 18 000 passengers. I fly that in a month and carry double the number of passengers in a year. Who do you think makes more decisions?
A last thought before I retire from this discussion. Do yourself a favour and go to an IFALPA converence. If you speak to senior pilots from all over the world and compare living standards, you will find what I have: SAA pilots are very, very lucky.
I don't wish a reduction in your lifestyle, but I don't believe that you need an improvement of 38% either.
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Nugpot, what you say about SAA working conditions is very true. SAAPA has fought extremely hard over the years to ensure that our working conditions are good. I must agree that we probably are one of the best companies to work for, despite the unfortunate politics. A lot of guys here forget how lucky they actually are. Fortunately I can still remember my first job quite clearly, and how exploited I was, cleaning and washing aircraft, and being a delivery boy, only getting lucky later on when they thought I was worth to fly full time (I had 200hrs with a twin IF).
I do feel for those that initially got into flying with a view or goal of getting into SAA when they first started flying. Unfortunately the goal posts seemed to have been moved, and getting in now is quite difficult with the whole cadet pilot scheme and the politics. My best friend has just left Comair for Emirates for better career path options. Tried to talk him out of it, but then its easy for me sitting this side of the fence I guess.
I do feel for those that initially got into flying with a view or goal of getting into SAA when they first started flying. Unfortunately the goal posts seemed to have been moved, and getting in now is quite difficult with the whole cadet pilot scheme and the politics. My best friend has just left Comair for Emirates for better career path options. Tried to talk him out of it, but then its easy for me sitting this side of the fence I guess.
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Originally Posted by FO Gyro
...and getting in now is quite difficult...
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I think and it has subsequently been proven that the guys at SAA currently do feel very emotional about their salary situation...
Contrary to popular belief though, I understand this.
The point I tried making (and think I have done so in the past), is that I do not think it is a healthy situation at the moment.
I guarantee you that SAA cannot afford this, no matter how you look at it - THAT infact is my point. Whether someone earns R5 million a year, why would we care.
But, there will come a time when this "process" will turn against the SAA guys and that is the part which NONE of us (believe it or not), wants to happen. Because then, as rightfully said by many, we all will get exploited.
So forgive me for actually being concerned about the future of SAA, but know what - When SAA fails, the 30+ years service guys will be long gone. But possibly it would also have been ruined for those who still "believed" that NEVER is a very long time.
That is me loosing my currency on this thread - Hope they get it "all", but leave a Profitable Company behind for your children to follow in your footsteps.
(Well said Nugpot)
Ditto
Contrary to popular belief though, I understand this.
The point I tried making (and think I have done so in the past), is that I do not think it is a healthy situation at the moment.
I guarantee you that SAA cannot afford this, no matter how you look at it - THAT infact is my point. Whether someone earns R5 million a year, why would we care.
But, there will come a time when this "process" will turn against the SAA guys and that is the part which NONE of us (believe it or not), wants to happen. Because then, as rightfully said by many, we all will get exploited.
So forgive me for actually being concerned about the future of SAA, but know what - When SAA fails, the 30+ years service guys will be long gone. But possibly it would also have been ruined for those who still "believed" that NEVER is a very long time.
That is me loosing my currency on this thread - Hope they get it "all", but leave a Profitable Company behind for your children to follow in your footsteps.
(Well said Nugpot)
Ditto
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I'd love to know where this idea comes from that we work less than guys at other airlines, plenty of guys ran out of hours last year. Please don't give us this argument about sectors and numbers carried when you fly between JHB and CPT 4 times a day - (1) you still sleep in the same time zone every friggin night and (2) half the guys at SAA are in the same boat.You assume that the guys with holiday homes and planes only earn money from SAA - bad assumption. I've been at SAA for 7 years and I certainly can't afford either on my SAA salary. Furthermore all things being equal (i.e. if I made the grade
) I’d be a Captain at any other airline in SA surely you gotta compensate me for that?If SAA cannot afford to pay their pilots salaries on a par with their colleagues in the real world they should refrain from giving their managers bonuses in the percentiles that they have in their latest financials.
Other companies may not get their bailouts from government but I don't see them making politically motivated business decisions.
This proposed increase that keeps getting bandied about (the figure on here is wrong) is as a result of what we've agreed to do to help the company out in the past couple of years and it is now time to collect. I could care less if it hurts the company, it's not like the company has our interests at heart and I very much doubt that it will be worthwhile working in any company that has the prefix South African in the future.
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People on this forum say SAA pilots get very emotive when salaries are discussed. How would you like it if you were told you earn too much and should get a pay cut, and that one is not worth what one is paid? I wonder if the CEO's and senior managers get told that?
I just get really tired of the few pilots out there that are maybe bitter and twisted, that blame SAA's woes on the high salaries, and can't wait for SAA to go down the tubes. All this negativity and bitterness is uncalled for. Would they not like to see SAA do well, employ more pilots, get more modern aircraft?
Don't the pilots out there feel they should earn what their counterparts earn overseas (buying power), or do they like being cheap labour? Maybe after years of brainwashing by companies, eg. Nationwide, they feel they are not meant to earn a realistic salary. My position is that fellow colleagues in the industry are paid too little for their knowledge and experience. Have a look at what similar disciplined professions pay, and you might change your mind...
I just get really tired of the few pilots out there that are maybe bitter and twisted, that blame SAA's woes on the high salaries, and can't wait for SAA to go down the tubes. All this negativity and bitterness is uncalled for. Would they not like to see SAA do well, employ more pilots, get more modern aircraft?
Don't the pilots out there feel they should earn what their counterparts earn overseas (buying power), or do they like being cheap labour? Maybe after years of brainwashing by companies, eg. Nationwide, they feel they are not meant to earn a realistic salary. My position is that fellow colleagues in the industry are paid too little for their knowledge and experience. Have a look at what similar disciplined professions pay, and you might change your mind...
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I promised myself to withdraw from this discussion, but your post really needs a response.
Yes, and they got paid EFP over and above their generous packages for every hour over the threshold (what is it again? 68 hours per month??)
Bad example, you will be out of duty. Try 2 non-precision approaches and 2 ILS's to minima without autoland.
This one takes the cake. Why should you be compensated as a captain at another airline if you are still an FO? YOU made the choice to go to SAA where you knew you would take 14 years to upgrade.
Interesting attitude. Probably why SAA is the ONLY airline in SA contracting, while all the others are expanding.
There is only one other airline with that prefix. It has just added 5 aircraft to its fleet and things are wonderful - thanks for asking.
Just to make things clear. I don't want SAA pilots forced by their company to accept less than they have. What you earn does not influence my life in any way. (No - it does not pull my salary up. We don't even discuss SAA packages at negotiations. The company and the association agree that it is unrealistic.) I have a specific problem when justifications like "responsibility for 350 passengers" and "look how much CEO's earn" fly around.
And please don't tell me that you are sorry that I don't feel worthy of a huge salary. I know exactly what my contribution to my company is and how much the company can afford to pay me.
And now I am definitely out of this discussion. Sorry if I got too personal. It was not the original intent.
Originally Posted by The Actuator
I'd love to know where this idea comes from that we work less than guys at other airlines, plenty of guys ran out of hours last year.
Originally Posted by The Actuator
Please don't give us this argument about sectors and numbers carried when you fly between JHB and CPT 4 times a day
Originally Posted by The Actuator
Furthermore all things being equal (i.e. if I made the grade) I’d be a Captain at any other airline in SA surely you gotta compensate me for that?
) I’d be a Captain at any other airline in SA surely you gotta compensate me for that?
Originally Posted by The Actuator
I could care less if it hurts the company
Originally Posted by The Actuator
I very much doubt that it will be worthwhile working in any company that has the prefix South African in the future.
Just to make things clear. I don't want SAA pilots forced by their company to accept less than they have. What you earn does not influence my life in any way. (No - it does not pull my salary up. We don't even discuss SAA packages at negotiations. The company and the association agree that it is unrealistic.) I have a specific problem when justifications like "responsibility for 350 passengers" and "look how much CEO's earn" fly around.
And please don't tell me that you are sorry that I don't feel worthy of a huge salary. I know exactly what my contribution to my company is and how much the company can afford to pay me.
And now I am definitely out of this discussion. Sorry if I got too personal. It was not the original intent.
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FO Gyro
So what you're saying is that you want the same salary as a British Airways, Cathay or Lufthansa pilot. You might do the same job however you work in Africa and fly overseas for an African airline, you don't live in Europe so why should a company pay you parity. A BA skipper on short haul has less disposable income, after tax than your SAA 738 skygod and living cost is higher - please get real and stop thinking that you're special. If a company can replace you with a cheaper source of labour it will and its going to happen.
The days of the big money in aviation are over, unless you work for SAA that is, take a look around, US is grinding due to union demands over salary, BA-no final pension salary - most work for a profit share or share issues - low cost is the only way to go. The secret with the European LCC is that they pay parity with the major airlines however their productivity is far better.
I agree with you that Nationwide are paid below the norm however even that over time will change once the demand outstrips supply.
Don't the pilots out there feel they should earn what their counterparts earn overseas
The days of the big money in aviation are over, unless you work for SAA that is, take a look around, US is grinding due to union demands over salary, BA-no final pension salary - most work for a profit share or share issues - low cost is the only way to go. The secret with the European LCC is that they pay parity with the major airlines however their productivity is far better.
I agree with you that Nationwide are paid below the norm however even that over time will change once the demand outstrips supply.
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Kingpost, you obviously don't understand what parity means. We want to earn the equivalent spending money as our colleagues overseas, since we are operating into foreign airspace, with 1st world equipment, and what's more, a lot of foreign exchange is used to purchase tickets from pax overseas. In other words, drive the same car, same house, and same spare change every month. If a BA Captain earns say 100 000 pounds a year, SAAPA isn't saying we should earn 100 000 x the exchange rate! That would be foolish. Both the Lufthansa or BA pilot should be able to afford the same lifestyle.
Kingpost, who said we think we are special. You must have a superiority complex. Those are the words of someone bitter and twisted. There's that reference to "Skygod" again. You deserve the title "Skypauper" I guess if you think we are paid too much.
Actuator, have bad news for your, have done a 4 leg Cape Town a few times. It falls 5 minutes withing flight and duty. Don't talk to me about productivity. Captains at SAA on the domestic work their backsides off. They are flying up to the legal limit every month. 5 days on (each day 4 legs or a 8 hour regional flight) and 2 off, 5 on, 2 off.
I think the low cost airlines are messing it up for everyone. The company is getting in less revenue from its pax, and it forced to pay everyone less. Is this what you people want, just accept that they can't pay you more, ie. cheap labour???
Kingpost, who said we think we are special. You must have a superiority complex. Those are the words of someone bitter and twisted. There's that reference to "Skygod" again. You deserve the title "Skypauper" I guess if you think we are paid too much.
Actuator, have bad news for your, have done a 4 leg Cape Town a few times. It falls 5 minutes withing flight and duty. Don't talk to me about productivity. Captains at SAA on the domestic work their backsides off. They are flying up to the legal limit every month. 5 days on (each day 4 legs or a 8 hour regional flight) and 2 off, 5 on, 2 off.
I think the low cost airlines are messing it up for everyone. The company is getting in less revenue from its pax, and it forced to pay everyone less. Is this what you people want, just accept that they can't pay you more, ie. cheap labour???
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Actuator, have bad news for your, have done a 4 leg Cape Town a few times. It falls 5 minutes withing flight and duty
Q4 - you really need to relax looks like those non precision approaches are getting to you.
Just to clarify - you don't get EFP for any time you fly over the legal annual limit, you might get some trouble but not EFP!
What I want to get compensated for is my loyalty, not for the Captains job in some other domestic airline. Should I be paid the same as a first year F/O? Come on, not even your company works that way. You have to give a rational person a career path and this includes compensation - no?
I prefer to fly long haul by choice, it's where I 've always wanted to be - would I do it for less money? ABSOLUTELY NOT A CHANCE.
I'm quite comfortable with the 14 years to command only because I'm not being financially disadvantaged by that fact, if I was I would leave - SIMPLE.
The fact that you think SAA is shrinking because of an attitude one pilot has, says more about why you stopped being a senior manager
(oops my mistake and my apologies I see it wasn't you who was a senior manager) than it does about your knowledge of the airline industry. Just like you can't believe everything you read in the Huisgenoot so too that which you've picked up in a pub from your buddies about what it's like to be a pilot at SAA, also needs a pinch of salt.I'm glad things are going well, (I did say it might not be so rosy in the FUTURE) and I'm also well pleased about the five new aircraft, you see I have friends that fly there as well. It's just that my friends don't want to work for peanuts for the next twenty years and are actively looking elsewhere while they build experience.
You ought to spend your time better promoting the self worth of your chosen profession lest other people start to think you ARE just a bus driver and ought to be paid as such!
Speaking of which I should get a little extra compensation for flying that bus instead of that Boeing
!!!
