Crime in SA

[bathtub200]

Fliterisk - ----- the problems with us whites here in South Africa are , we all have found our little comfort zones , most of us anyway.Do we really give a dam what happens to the poor farmers that get raped or killed ?---- highly unlikely , lets be honest with ourselves as long as our loved ones are not involved , we think that it happened to someone else.
Us whites dont have any backbone to go out there and make a difference and maybe we should take a long and hard look at the French and see how they dented their leaders egos.I dont agree how they went about it but it made a difference and I have not heard or read that they shot themselves in the foot as a result of their actions.
We cant stand back and watch all this crap go on and on.
Remember , we are not in the same boat as the ex-rhodies , when the excretion hits the fan , we have no where to go.

[HUGS]

Well gentlemen I'm happy someone is sticking his neck out and doing something about the crime here. This website is excellent and we should support it. I'm saying that because we should fight crime ourselves in SA and expose the corruption here. We have to do it ourselves and not depend on foreign investment. I have an investment opportunity worth over a billion rands over the next 5 years from foreign investors but the question at the top of the list from them is CRIME! They arent going to risk there money and I dont blame them, Do YOU?

[6-String]

Good website! Hot topic. Terrifying!

There are various courses of action available to those of us who don't like what's going on. You simply have to choose one.

I chose to leave.

[Shrike200]

I think the point of the website is not to whine pointlessly - it's to expose the situation to OTHER people - *we*, as South Africans, are painfully aware of it, to us it's preaching to the choir. Logically then, it's intent (as it states) is to try to inform potential tourists, and let them decide - this ultimately hits the government in a way that we cannot - in their pocket, by possibly lowering income generated by tourism. In that way, whether I agree with it or not, I logically cannot see it as 'pointless whining', ie it has some purpose other than plain hand-wringing.

As to those who say we need the world cup, bringing people here now, *as the country stands*, please consider this (doomsday, I know!) scenario:

Tens (possibly hundreds) of thousands of people who have never been to SA (or Africa for that matter) arrive on our doorstep - they are greeted by a jampacked JHB Int (Or, confusingly to some of them, OR Tambo Int, whatever the case may be). Too few customs/immigration officers are available, and queues are long. Baggage is delayed, lost, and stolen. Upon departing the airport, violent road accidents claim some of them. That is, those lucky enough to find transport. While wandering the streets in this new land at night, looking for a good time, some are beaten, robbed, or even murdered for their cellphones, (or something similarly trivial). Attending the games, a lack of organisation is evident. Minimal information is available regarding the numerous changes made to schedules etc due to last minute changes, having failed to meet some deadlines on construction/infrastructure. Our monopoly-strangled telecoms industry struggles, before failing under the load of international traffic caused by interest from abroad.

This is obviously a ridiculously extreme case, and I would far rather have everything go well. But each example I mention there, and more that I didn't, should certainly not sound completely impossible to South Africans. Now, consider the impression the visitor leaves SA with: Will it be "There's no F^&*&^ way I'm going there again, I'll tell everyone I know what a failure it is!", or something like that? I believe that will kill investment in SA, and Africa. All it would do is reinforce foreigners opinions that Africa is a money sinkhole, not fit to invest time, effort, or money in.

What we do now can perhaps shape global impressions regarding SA's (and Africa's, to a certain degree even) ability to perform. Do we seriously want to run the risk of blowing all of that?

So, people who highlight problem areas, in my opinion, are helping to draw attention to areas that desperately need attention. They're helping in the long run. It's not just mindless whining. We may be blase about it, but I can assure you, any horror stories that come out of this event will be remembered for a long time by those involved. They'll tell their friends, who will tell their friends - and that will be a far, far worse blow for tourism than this one little web site.

[learboys]

Filterisk, "Everyday I recieve on my pc emails of petitions about crime. The worst part about it is that they are always sent from Ex pats. Its getting tedious" With that statement you can go to hell!!! It was convienient for the ANC to use the media and news here once apon a time, now the boot is on the other foot, not so nice, is it!!! Another thing my reasons for being here in Europe has got nothing to do with you, Im still a South African, to say the least nobody emailed you this, its a forum(a chat site). You made the choice to read my posting, which if you didn't want to, you shouldn't have. Nobody forced you to. It's called freedom of speech. Typical narrow minded thinking, if you don't like it or can't handle the truth then don't read it, get off the site. In future I suggest you wind your neck in and if you want to have your say, leave the nasty comments out of it.

As for investment I do agree with you, we need it badly down South, but with these kinds of stats, who in their right mind will invest? The Fat Cats (GOV of the day) are doing nothing to stop the crime, and every time they get caught out, or with their pants down they blame it on "Apartheid", so sick of that line!!!!!! and how the "whites" are always to blame, now that's "TEDIOUS".

[B Sousa]

This item is drawing a lot of fire on "the other site" also.........

[JG1]

The South African Police, whose task it is to fight this crime, was the primary organisation the ANC wanted fully race representative, as fast as possible. Constables became Colonels overnight, remember the stories in the paper.

The result is our country's most major problem today - unchecked crime and a corrupt police force. Completely confirms that Affirmative Action is a completely flawed policy.

Yet they take no notice, they will continue this headlong slide into the standard chaotic African mess..

[Shrike200]

Yeah, I remember the cries of "There will be no lowering of standards!" Yet there clearly have been, across the board. But now, to comment and criticize is somehow 'racist'? I don't get it - what part of "You're the public servant, and I'm the taxpayer paying YOUR salary, so I expect some form of competent performance" don't they get?! That isn't a "black" or "white" thing, it's a "we're not idiots, and you suck at your job" thing!

[Kernel]

I'm getting to the stage whereby I'm just about ready to quit my cushy airline job and work contracts again in Sudan and Baghdad. Felt far safer there...

[helldog]

From an outsiders point of view here, having worked with many South Africans and spent some time in South AFrica, the view is that I would not want to live there. Every South African I know has had some experience with crime. By that I mean either they or somene close to them has been hijacked or robbed or has had to shoot an intruder or something, crazy. You cant put stats on that, but you can get a general view by just listening to people. I dont think you can downplay the problem at all. Good on that dude for starting the website.

[Fliterisk]

Learboys.... firstly, I think perhaps you overeacted. I said "I recieve emails" not "when I read your comment". It was not aimed at you, although I can see why you took it like it was. I get bombarded by ex pats living overseas telling me how bad it is. Surely you can see my frustration??? I apologise since it was definitely not aimed at you.

Secondly, I see that I am one voice among many other views, and that's ok. Because I never wished to cause controversy, rather express another (mine) viewpoint.

So, for me, I am perhaps pessemistic. I have spent many hours complaining and nothing got done. I have spent many hours moaning, and nothing got done. Am I sitting with my head in the sand, perhaps, but then thats a decision I have had to conciously make. Since nothing else worked.

I too have investigated living in Aus and believe I am able to get in. What concerned me was the salaries, the cost of living and going there with little money, I am worried that my kid will be living in a "low class" area there, and I assume that everyone in this country who cares, would leave if there wasnt a cost. So there's a trade off.

My point is simple and perahps been looked at a little out of context. I seriously dont believe what Neil Watson is doing is going to work, and I also dont believe that it will do anything more than make those living in SA more despondant and do more harm than good. Am I suggesting that we sit and do nothing. Yes, well sort of.

I am suggesting we try and focus on the positive things, that which we have control over, and try and uplift the country via the back door. We have to look at the positives. We live here, we earn money here, and with so much negativity around us already we are going to be pushed further down into the pit of misery! Because perhaps by South African's putting their heads in the sand is a coping mechanism, nothing more. South Africans need to do something and constant moaning about it is not going to help. Surely a fund raising effort to help AIDS orphans is positive, not to fund the bearer of the bad news we are all aware of already. I tried to access some of his links, and none of them worked.... I also noticed the amount of "fund raising links", which ALL WORKED! My opinion is that this site will do more harm than good.

I might be a coward, but perhaps its a question of chosing my battles. I am acutely aware of the ones I am unable to win, and I want to live wherever I do, trying to focus on that which is positive.

It makes me feel proud to have the world cup in SA (right or wrong), it makes me happy to see tourism on the increase. What worries me is that without all this, there is no reason to keep the Kruger Park operational, invest billiions in infrastructure, and uplift the spirit of all South Africans. Without it, you will still have the crime, you will still have the poverty and worst of all, there is no Spotlight on the masses sticking to their pledge of democracy!!!

[Beech19]

Fliterisk i don't think that we should look at South African ex-pats living overseas as any less South African. There are probally a lot of reasons as to why they are there at the moment. For one reason perhaps, just to get themselves and their families away from danger. Personally if i was a father my first duty would be my families safety. It does not mean that they have abanded SA.

I'm sure that if our high crime rate did not exist then a lot of them would never have left. And if things get sorted out (hell may freeze over first) then they, the one's overseas who are concerned about the crime, would come back.

[learboys]

Apology accepted Fliterisk. Look this site is not what we as South Africans living in or abroad really want to hear about, we like to think SA is a beautiful country with so much going for it, but the reality is we have serious problems. We SA living abroad are ambassadors here in Europe for SA. Most folks I meet are scared to go to SA and I have always told them SA as any country has its good and bad elements and you don't go walking down certain streets in London or Paris at night, the same applies to SA. Of late SA has been creeping into the news, and the sad part is how SA folks even behave here in Europe. Fighting in pubs, road rage, the Taliban moving through JHB International, not to long ago a Bunch of SA boys tried their own tricks in the UK, taking a women in broad daylight, abducting her, then raping her, they were caught on CCTV from start to finish, just to mention a few of the headlines and now this. The news and media here is very big and when stories make headlines, they stay on the news for days, then we hear about it 24/7. Saffers here have to live with these disgraceful events. It's not nice hearing about a site like this at all and is rather worrying for all of us, but it's making a point, if we like it or not, denying the fact, is surely the wisdom of a fool. It is a serious issue, and it will harm the country. The government had better start addressing these issues very quickly, Tabo's silent approach to events like this and to Zimbabwe's situation is not doing anybody any good, and as President of SA it's high time he starts displaying leadership qualities and starts leading his country. Start tackling the crime problems. Blaming whites and looking for all sorts of excuses for SA current position is not going to help. He needs to stop dividing the country with his racist policies, admit that crime is a huge problem, pick up his poor performance and start getting the country behind him and sorting out and do what needs to be done. If they choose to turn a blind eye on these issues, the world cup will surely be a disaster, not to mention how the tourist industry will suffer as well as aviation.
I think the government has lost the plot, they have sabotaged this site to stop it from running, but its on mirror sites so his still getting his message across, dirty play (makes the government look stupid and shows they have something to hide), I wonder why every South Africans even bothered to vote, this is a violation of free speech, its not democracy, not with death threats, it a dictatorship. The government is supposed to represent the people and work for the people not the other way around. Exposing the government's poor performance is not a crime, it's a democratic right and to voice you opions be it good or bad is a freedom of speech. It happens here daily, and the governments here get exposed and held accountable for their actions, something which doesn't happen down south. Zimbabwe's dictatorship is starting to wear off on South Africa, with the way the government is handling this situation. What's it going to be next, is Watson going to serve jail time, or be investigated by the Scorpions and some dirty trick pulled on him, to expose him as something his not, for voicing his and many others opions.

Leaving the problem as you suggest and only foccussing on the positive is a total unjust way of dealing with the real problem at hand, this is a reality which involves people loosing their lives and love ones, be it South Africans(white or black) or Europeans it does'nt matter. Criminals have no respect for the law or for human life in South Africa. It is not acceptable which ever way you choose to look at it, to aknowledge crime and do nothing about it is the biggest crime of them all.

[PAXboy]

First: I have had family in ZA for 180 years, family and school friends still live there (PTA + CPT) and I visit regularly. I lived in Pretoria from ages 9~18. Next trip, this October.

Second: This statement is going to be unpopular ...
The violence cannot be fixed by the government.
The violence cannot be fixed by the ANC.
The violence cannot be fixed by anyone.

I have thought for some ten years that: the quiet transition from the old to the new, that was effected in the early 1990s by Frederick de Klerk and Nelson Mandela, was utterly brilliant but that it has repercussions that will be reaped for years to come. Ultimately, that historic quiet transition of regime will be very noisy.

Mankind is not renowned for doing things quietly. One simple example: A large group of citizens in North America decided that they wanted independence from the UK (a not unreasonable choice!), so they fought a war to do so. The American Revolutionary War (1775–1783), also known as the American War of Independence. Less than a hundred years later, they fought a Civil War (1861–1865) and only then could they start to find their own feet. Most new countries need a Civil War to bring a balance.

Humans tend only to learn through pain and South Africa did not have that 'big pain'. Instead, they have had - and are having - a long, low level civil war 'lots of small pain'. There are many words written about the theme of 'a blood price'. That is to say, that something acheived with blood will have a certain value and, until that price is paid, then value will not be given to it. It is my suggestion that South Africa has yet to reach that point. Further, that that point is some considerable way off.

If the change of regime had been made with a civil war (as was predicted by so many for so long) then the country would not, now, be experiencing this local violence, for the blood price would have already been paid. The blood would have been let and the anger drained away with it. But it wasn't and so the blood is now being let, albeit in a different way.

It does not count whether the blood is let from white or black, there is no common experience of pain and blood loss for the different racial groups to share. Yes, of course, there is loss of blood and both experience it - but it is not yet large enough for it to have a true common experience.
I consider that the main reason the conflict in Northern Ireland has subsided is that the blood price has been paid and people have seen that it has got nowhere. Other factors are in play, of course. Conversely, in Israel and Lebanon, the blood price has yet to be reached and nothing can stop it. The UN or other groups are powerless - until the blood has been shed. there are countless other examples around the world in the world, past and present.

So ... I think that nothing will change, despite good efforts by many (and I applaud all and every effort). I think that the low level of violence almost 'must' take place, if South Africa is to reach stability. This low level violence may, eventually, break out into a high level - we shall have to see. But ... nothing can stop the violence. How long? If it continues at this low level, another 20 years at the very least.

[james ozzie]

warfare & cultural devlopment (!)

Paxboy raises an interesting point on the "benefits" of strife & war in a country's history. Switzerland is a great example - centuries of peace but no writers, artists or musicians. All they have created cuturally are cuckoo clocks, Alpine horns and yodelling. (OK, OK....)
But I guess given the choice, we would all choose the Swiss model.

[B Sousa]

"All they have created cuturally are cuckoo clocks, Alpine horns and yodelling."

Much nicer to be able to Yodel in the streets instead of having to yell for help that wont come...........
SA is on the way, just a bit slower than the rest of the continent..Ask the millions of zim folks who are now there illegally.


Six String.Below. Thats not my quote, I got it from above by James Ozzie. Also its obvious that Xenophobia has not hurt them.Its probably the safest place in the world to live...A bit expensive also.

[6-String]

Originally Posted by B Sousa

"All they have created cuturally are cuckoo clocks, Alpine horns and yodelling."

Uh, don't forget Toblerone and XENOPHOBIA; the latter being an art developed and nurtured to this day in Switzerland!

[point8four]

What will it take?

My question is how many of the posts here are from guys with young families? When you are away from your loved ones on contract/3day london/cape town night stop, what provisions have been made to guarantee you come home to what you left behind? I wonder what will happen in 18 years time when my untanned 21 year old son leaves varsity to enter a job market that doesn't support him as a demographic entity? Hmmmm? We provide for the future as best we can, we pay our taxes, we breeze over the headlines with a "thank goodness it wasn't me" attitude and we wait for better days. We've resigned ourselves to our situation like wildebeest crossing the river to graze the other side. Its dangerous but we'll make it-maybe Bert will get "crocked" before me this year and I'll live to fight another day.
The situation will deteriorate and continue to do so regardless of how many of us cross the river each year. Crime is a business and a lucrative one at that-state of the art and keeping up with developments. Do you think Constable M is going to put himself in harm's way for you for 2grand a month? And if we increase Constable M's mates (constable m squared) will it improve? Haha and ha again-because Constable M knows he can earn an extra 2grand by looking the other way between 8:45 and 9:00pm next tuesday at the Rivonia offramp! Come on chaps!
Dear President Mbeki - please can you stop the crime commencing 01st September this year- regards Citizen X (complete with short haircut, tortoise shell glasses and inspiring speeches)
I wonder if Virgin Nigeria arriving with 300 pax and departing with 36 has done anything to exacerbate the situation(no visa required on fridays) just a rumour, but then again whats a forum for.......

[porridge]

Perhaps we are missing the opportunities for specialist tourism here. Some countries benefit from sex tourism & paedophilia so why not promote murder tourism? For example someone who wants to get rid of an unwanted spouse/business rival/unpleasant neighbour etc could arrange to have that person ‘win’ a vacation in SA and arrange a hit that looks like an everyday hijacking or armed robbery. Take out insurance on the intended victim and it makes it financially attractive.
Perhaps too there is the opportunity to hunt humans for sport, for example the 1932 movie ‘The Most Dangerous Game’, (see also: http://axisofevelknievel.********.co...ng-humans.html ) if it was hunting dangerous criminals instead of innocent people it could be quite popular with the local public observing wealthy tourists doing the job that law is incapable of doing, whilst bringing in the tourist dollars. One could also indulge in a ‘Death Wish’ a la Charles Bronson and go out and rove around in a Beamer armed to the teeth and shoot it out with the criminals attempting to hijack you.
Food for thought?

[Woof etc]

ha, ha

Great ideas Porridge - capitalism at its finest.

Would bring a whole new meaning to the word adventure tourism. Just think of it - we could offer round the world adventure tours.

Day 1. Johhanesburg. Today we meet our tour guide and get issued with bullet proof vests and AK47 automatic weapons. Rest of day free to roam around the CBD waiting for opportunist muggers and to practice using the AK47.

Day 2. Johannesburg. Hi-jacking. One of our favourites. Today we drive around Soweto in a top end BMW and wait to be hijacked - a thrill a minute! In the evening we retire to our hotel to compare kills.

Day 3. Johannesburg: Death wish. Today we will take a ride on an African Minibus taxi. Some of our guests may wish to skip this activity due to the hazards involved. Overnight flight to Baghdad.

Day 4. Baghdad: Arrival at hotel. Meet our tour guide and get issued with Stars and Stripes T shirts with the slogan 'Bush Rocks! Osamas a camel shagger' In the afternoon we will have the opportunity to walk around the downtown area and meet some of the friendly locals. If we are fortunate we may have the opportunity to witness the aftermath of a car bomb.

Day 5. Beiruit.........