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-   -   Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/617514-cardiff-city-footballer-feared-missing-after-aircraft-disappeared-near-channel-island.html)

Alanwsg 28th Feb 2019 17:43

Here it is ....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47406109

runway30 28th Feb 2019 17:57


Originally Posted by Mike Flynn (Post 10403062)
The definition of corporate manslaughter is quite clear.


There is no evidence that any companies are involved in this chain of events.

Whipstall 28th Feb 2019 18:08

Whilst it always seemed highly unlikely I guess this is the final nail in the coffin of any cost-sharing argument.

jumpseater 28th Feb 2019 18:10


Originally Posted by runway30 (Post 10403124)
There is no evidence that any companies are involved in this chain of events.

Assuming the football agent is a UK based or registered company, even as a sole trader, I would have thought that may put them in the liability crosshairs for corporate responsibilities.

edit: It also occurs that the HSE may get involved. If itís a regular company practice to use Ďunlicensedí transport facilities for staff/customer transport and an accident occurs, a UK company could certainly face prosecution from the HSE.

runway30 28th Feb 2019 18:12

However, Willie McKay said it was not a cost-sharing agreement as "Emi wasn't paying anything" and that he was going to pay "whatever Dave [Henderson] was going to charge".

Thatís really throwing Dave Henderson under the bus.

"I've been told on good authority he was a very good pilot so for people to vilify the pilot after a man's death is a disgrace. I don't hold anyone responsible because it's just a tragic accident."

If you pilot an aircraft under conditions for which you are not qualified that is not an accident, it is negligence however much lipstick you try to put on the pig.

Arkroyal 28th Feb 2019 18:16

Pity the Oscars were last week!

McKay senior and junior would be great contenders.

Having admitted and continuing to admit he arranged the flight, he now blames Cardiff City for letting him do it! Iím stunned.

vanHorck 28th Feb 2019 18:17

So McKay says it was not a cost sharing flight implying it was commercial. With a PPL at the wheel. Whoever hired Mr Ibbotson (Mr Henderson?) will have a lot to answer for.

S-Works 28th Feb 2019 19:29


Originally Posted by Dr Jekyll (Post 10403186)
It's academic, but 370 hours doesn't seem particularly unreasonable either for a cross channel flight or a complex piston single.

He had nearly 4000hrs and had held a PPL for a very long time.......

Chronus 28th Feb 2019 20:18

Flying Hours
Our thoughts on this discussion converge to focus on the pilot. Whether he was fit in every way to undertake this fateful flight.
Accepting he had accumulated the significant time of 3700hrs, and had done some aerial work such as para drops band glider tow, would it not be reasonable to suggest that his ambition may have been to work as a commercial pilot. That flying was more than a hobby or pass time. Why did he not at least get an instructor`s rating and take it one step further, why did he not get an IR to his PPL. Why did he not go for a CPL. Why were all these beyond his reach. Does it not also raise the question that he may have tried and maybe failed. Where do so many hours take one without a purpose. If one has very deep pockets, well all these do not come into question. But in this instance a gas fitter/engineer/plumber, with a poor financial score behind him, surely does not fall into that well heeled flying nut category. How much does 3700 hrs airtime cost. How did this unfortunate plumber could have afforded it, even if it was over a number of years. Flying has never been cheap. Unless you have a very deep pocket someone else must pay for the person sitting up at the front end of the machine. Who could those at the back be. I suppose that depends on how many good well heeled friends one may have.

S-Works 28th Feb 2019 20:22


Originally Posted by Chronus (Post 10403248)
Flying Hours
Our thoughts on this discussion converge to focus on the pilot. Whether he was fit in every way to undertake this fateful flight.
Accepting he had accumulated the significant time of 3700hrs, and had done some aerial work such as para drops band glider tow, would it not be reasonable to suggest that his ambition may have been to work as a commercial pilot. That flying was more than a hobby or pass time. Why did he not at least get an instructor`s rating and take it one step further, why did he not get an IR to his PPL. Why did he not go for a CPL. Why were all these beyond his reach. Does it not also raise the question that he may have tried and maybe failed. Where do so many hours take one without a purpose. If one has very deep pockets, well all these do not come into question. But in this instance a gas fitter/engineer/plumber, with a poor financial score behind him, surely does not fall into that well heeled flying nut category. How much does 3700 hrs airtime cost. How did this unfortunate plumber could have afforded it, even if it was over a number of years. Flying has never been cheap. Unless you have a very deep pocket someone else must pay for the person sitting up at the front end of the machine. Who could those at the back be. I suppose that depends on how many good well heeled friends one may have.

He was colourblind and therefore never able to get a CPL/IR. he loved to fly but could not afford it hence getting into parachute dropping and ultimately the arrangement that led to his demise.

Aso 28th Feb 2019 20:26

This is how Mr Henderson sells his business on Linkedin... My bold and underline...


Aviation Facilitator.

I have been operating as a ferry pilot for over 2 decades - SEP, MEP, SET and now run my own aviation consultancy.

Whether you are looking to
- significantly reduce your time spent travelling for business or leisure, while accessing remote/hard to reach locations
- recieve advice on the management of your own craft
- or acquire/purchase an aircraft/helicopter
I will be able to provide a number of highly cost efficient solutions
If you have a requirement to use General Aviation for any purpose, anywhere in the world, I can probably assist.
On top of this: Mr McKay is known in the industry to be ONLY price oriented when booking aircraft...

Chronus 28th Feb 2019 20:41


Originally Posted by S-Works (Post 10403253)


He was colourblind and therefore never able to get a CPL/IR. I loved to fly but could not afford it hence getting into parachute dropping and ultimately the arrangement that led to his demise.


So does that not mean he was a victim of love. The most unfortunate that such love also took another victim who did not share his love. Is it not for good reason that a person who has the misfortune of suffering with such disability as colour blindness is barred from holding a professional licence. But there again as the old proverb goes, love has no boundaries.

Maoraigh1 28th Feb 2019 20:51

"He had a Second Class medical with the only restriction being 'Must have available glasses for near vision.'
and he had a U.K. licence Class 2 medical with a restriction on specifically preventing flight at night"
I find this strange. His current medical was an EASA Class 2. The restrictions on it were what matter. It is surprising that colour blindness restrictions were lifted, but apparently they were. The UK licence medical would have been in the past, and replaced by the EASA one when it expired.
(I have flown on a PPL since 1987. I got a JAR number in 2006. I got both an EASA and a UK National PPL in 2018. I have always had a standard PPL medical - was it called Class 2 in 1987? My original FAA 61.75 had a night restriction, although I had a Night Rating, but that restriction was removed later.)

S-Works 28th Feb 2019 21:54


Originally Posted by Maoraigh1 (Post 10403277)
"He had a Second Class medical with the only restriction being 'Must have available glasses for near vision.'
and he had a U.K. licence Class 2 medical with a restriction on specifically preventing flight at nigh"
I find this strange. His current medical was an EASA Class 2. The restrictions on it were what matter. It is surprising that colour blindness restrictions were lifted, but apparently they were. The UK licence medical would have been in the past, and replaced by the EASA one when it expired.
(I have flown on a PPL since 1987. I got a JAR number in 2006. I got both an EASA and a UK National PPL in 2018. I have always had a standard PPL medical - was it called Class 2 in 1987? My original FAA 61.75 had a night restriction, although I had a Night Rating, but that restriction was removed later.)

What makes you think the restrictions were lifted? His EASA medical had a no night flying restriction on it.

robin 28th Feb 2019 22:21

From the Daily Heil

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...al-flight.html

vanHorck 28th Feb 2019 22:37

The player was always intending to return in the evening according to these whatsapp's

ATC Watcher 1st Mar 2019 08:41

Yes , if those screenshots are correct it is quite damaging as indeed the return flight was from the beginning planned to be in the evening ( so at least partly at night) and Sala apparently paid for it as the person on the other end of the phone asked Sala if he arranged the price [with Willis Mc Kay] , , and Sala replied : yes , it is good .

Luc Lion 1st Mar 2019 11:37

The colour blindness issue is a red herring.
Historically, barring some flying privileges to colour blind people had surfaced for fear that such people would be unable to distinguish the different flare signals sent by a tower in the event of a radio-communication failure or unable to distinguish the left and right position lights of a conflicting traffic. Most colour blind people can perfectly distinguish the 2 position lights but fail the Ishihara test.

The real issues that have a causal relationship with this accident are:
- was the pilot trained and current for flying in IMC at night ?
- why wasn't a commercial pilot at the controls of that plane, if it is confirmed that the actual conditions of the flight match private carriage operation as defined under FAR 91.501(b)(4).

ChickenHouse 1st Mar 2019 11:45


Originally Posted by Luc Lion (Post 10403753)
The colour blindness issue is a red herring.

You may even believe that, I don't.

S-Works 1st Mar 2019 11:59


Originally Posted by Luc Lion (Post 10403753)
The colour blindness issue is a red herring.
Historically, barring some flying privileges to colour blind people had surfaced for fear that such people would be unable to distinguish the different flare signals sent by a tower in the event of a radio-communication failure or unable to distinguish the left and right position lights of a conflicting traffic. Most colour blind people can perfectly distinguish the 2 position lights but fail the Ishihara test.

The real issues that have a causal relationship with this accident are:
- was the pilot trained and current for flying in IMC at night ?
- why wasn't a commercial pilot at the controls of that plane, if it is confirmed that the actual conditions of the flight match private carriage operation as defined under FAR 91.501(b)(4).

He was colourblind and had a specific licence restriction to Day Time Flying ONLY. He had NEVER been trained to fly out night due to this restriction. This could not be over ridden on his 61.75 certificate. So regardless of any of the other issues around the flight, the fact that it was flown at night made it illegal.......


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