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-   -   Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/617514-cardiff-city-footballer-feared-missing-after-aircraft-disappeared-near-channel-island.html)

piperp2 26th Jan 2019 09:03


Originally Posted by runway30 (Post 10371019)
FRIDAY JANUARY 18

7:43pm - Jack McKay: "My dad has told me that you are going home tomorrow. He could organise a plane to take you direct to Nantes and to come back on Monday, at a time that suits you, so you can get to training on Tuesday."

7:51pm - Emiliano Sala: "Ah that is great. I was just in the middle of checking if there are some flights to get to Nantes tomorrow."

7:56pm - McKay: "He said he could organise a plane that would go direct to Nantes."

7:56pm - Sala: "How much will it cost?"

7:56pm - McKay: "Nothing. He said if you help me to score goals it's nothing."

7:59pm - Sala: "Hahaha with pleasure."

8:00pm: "We are going to score lots of goals."

8:01pm: "I want to leave tomorrow for Nantes at around 11am and come back on Monday night around 9pm to Cardiff if that is possible."

8:05pm - McKay: "Good. I'll send a message when that's sorted."

SUNDAY JANUARY 20

5:00pm - Jack McKay: "Hi there is it possible you could come back at seven in the evening on Monday night? Just because the pilot has to get home in the north after he gets to Cardiff."

5:01pm - Emiliano Sala: "Hi, Half past seven would be possible."

5:03pm - McKay: "Yes that's good."

5:05pm - Sala: [PICTURE OF LUGGAGE]: "Can you ask if I can bring this on the plane?"

5:06pm - McKay: "Good yeah."

5:07pm - Sala: "But is that going to be ok for the plane?"

McKay: "Yes there is space on the plane for your luggage."

5:12pm - Sala: "Ok."

MONDAY JANUARY 21

4:16pm - Jack McKay: "I'm going to call in a moment."

[Emiliano Sala voice message]

4.23pm - McKay: "He said that it is the same company."

4.27pm - Sala: "Ok thanks."

Interesting comments about the luggage and personal belongings of the passenger, I wonder what that weighed... Did it have anything to do with the apparent 3 attempts to take off or even influence a one pilot operation?

Luc Lion 26th Jan 2019 09:03


Originally Posted by helimutt (Post 10371002)
Do you have some vested interest in this? The pilot certainly didnít use its potential for flying Ďon top of the weatherí as you so put it.

??
No vested interest.
I started following this thread because I couldn't understand why this plane was cruising at 5000 ft in Monday's meteorological conditions and, if a problem prevented the climb out, why the pilot didn't declare an emergency and land in Jersey.
These questions still remain open, even though there is now a hypothesis that the cruising altitude choice was deliberate and dictated by licencing issues.
If the deliberate choice is confirmed, to me this is akin to reckless flying.

anchorhold 26th Jan 2019 09:13

Piperp2... as previously mentioned the three or four attempted take offs, were in fact indicated as attempted engine starts, nothing unusual in cold conditions on a fuel injected engine if you are either not familiar with the aircraft or POH!

Luc Lion 26th Jan 2019 09:16


Originally Posted by piperp2 (Post 10371279)
Interesting comments about the luggage and personal belongings of the passenger, I wonder what that weighed... Did it have anything to do with the apparent 3 attempts to take off or even influence a one pilot operation?

In a typical PA-46-310p with full tanks, the usable load for passengers and baggage is 730 lbs or 330 kg.
In a configuration with just 2 persons in the front seats, you must put some luggage in the aft compartment or limit the fuel load to remain within the loading envelope.

DaveReidUK 26th Jan 2019 09:20


Originally Posted by piperp2 (Post 10371279)
Interesting comments about the luggage and personal belongings of the passenger, I wonder what that weighed... Did it have anything to do with the apparent 3 attempts to take off or even influence a one pilot operation?

I don't attach any significance to those texts. Sala probably had no idea what sort of aircraft he would be flying on, so asking about bringing luggage would be a reasonable question.

Given that the Malibu accommodates six, including the pilot, I'd be surprised if a 300 nm trip would have limited it to 2 up plus bag(s).

Re the "3 attempts to take off" (reportedly a comment in a message from Sala), it has been suggested in these pages that he may have meant 3 attempts required to start the engine, which sounds more likely.

Edit: Beaten to it by the two previous posts !

Sillert,V.I. 26th Jan 2019 09:37

Another way of looking at this is to ask the question "What would have happened if the accident had never taken place"; that is to say, suppose the pilot had resolved whatever issues he faced over Alderney and gone on to land uneventfully at Cardiff.

I'd suggest the answer is a big fat nothing.

And therein lies the heart of the problem; lack of effective oversight and accountability. Had the pilot believed that he would likely have had to explain his actions on landing at Cardiff, he just might have thought twice about taking off in the first place.

It's human nature for a minority of folks to bend the rules if they think there's little chance of getting found out.

If we want to make real improvements in safety, we need to take more effective enforcement action against those who break the rules and don't crash.

korrol 26th Jan 2019 09:54

Just a week ago today,,, from the boards of South Wales Aviation Group reporting movements at Cardiff Airport...

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....a97c89cdf4.jpg

Arkroyal 26th Jan 2019 10:19


Originally Posted by DaveReidUK (Post 10371297)
I don't attach any significance to those texts. Sala probably had no idea what sort of aircraft he would be flying on, so asking about bringing luggage would be a reasonable question.

Given that the Malibu accommodates six, including the pilot, I'd be surprised if a 300 nm trip would have limited it to 2 up plus bag(s).

Re the "3 attempts to take off" (reportedly a comment in a message from Sala), it has been suggested in these pages that he may have meant 3 attempts required to start the engine, which sounds more likely.

Edit: Beaten to it by the two previous posts !

Dave, the query about the luggage was sent on Sunday 20th by which time Sala had already flown to Nantes in the same aeroplane the day before. Maybe he had no way of contacting DI directly, but he knew the size of the Malibu by then. So someone who is not the pilot nor knows anything about weight and balance has unwittingly increased the pressure on DI. Maybe of no consequence but..... The plot thickens.

DH could shed a lot of light.............

2unlimited 26th Jan 2019 10:28


Originally Posted by piperp2 (Post 10371279)
Interesting comments about the luggage and personal belongings of the passenger, I wonder what that weighed... Did it have anything to do with the apparent 3 attempts to take off or even influence a one pilot operation?

I find this case very interesting. I have not liked the development of such sites Wingley, although this is not directly linked to them, it raises many interesting questions.

But how much responsibility can be put on McKay? I do feel that there is some clear responsibility for him here to "arrange" this flight.


Redlands 26th Jan 2019 10:50

Unsure if related, Fri 18th
https://planefinder.net/flight/N531E...1-18T07:15:00#


helimutt 26th Jan 2019 11:00

Ok, so now the trend of conversation is towards non legal charter/cost sharing etc and Wingly, whilst not being used in this instance, and being totally legal in the CAA's eyes, I saw this. I was certain that you needed 100+ hours before being a Wingly acceptable pilot. Obv not. 77 hrs in an R22 does not, in my opinion, make someone suitable to fly passengers in an R22. And I flew them for a lot of hours when I first started out. Did I take passengers for quick joyrides with me? yes I did but looking back I never should have. I knew too little. Take a look at this link. It's in the public domain on their website so I don't feel I'm doing anything wrong posting the link, but people will do all sorts to build hours. It's all legal but to me, it looks like its being run as a business by the pilot, not the odd ride in a helicopter. Too pre-planned for my liking.

https://en.wingly.io/index.php?page=...flight=1699971

runway30 26th Jan 2019 11:09

I think that McKay has made about as clear an allegation of illegal public transport as it is possible to make. I also think that more serious offences could be uncovered as the investigation goes on so now is the time for the forces of law and order to do their duty.

I still think the very shy aircraft owners need to explain why they were allowing their aircraft to be used for this purpose, which has clearly been going on for some considerable time, and if I was Cardiff City I would be asking McKay what due diligence he went through to ensure that the charter business he was using was either properly licensed or the flights were being brokered to a properly licensed operator.

DaveReidUK 26th Jan 2019 11:15


Originally Posted by korrol (Post 10371329)
Just a week ago today,,, from the boards of South Wales Aviation Group reporting movements at Cardiff Airport...

See post #44.


Originally Posted by Redlands (Post 10371371)

Yes, Eclipse N531EA was noted at CWL on Friday 18th, having arrived from Nantes, and departed again about an hour later, so it may well have brought the player to Cardiff for the signing last weekend.

It also flew Cardiff-Nantes on 8th January, returning the following day, presumably connected with Sala's transfer negotiations. For the 8-9 Jan trip it positioned from/to Doncaster-Sheffield.

Nige321 26th Jan 2019 11:19

From the Daily Mirror article...


McKay said: "In regards to the booking of the flight, we contacted David Henderson who has flown us and many of our players all over Europe on countless occasions.

runway30 26th Jan 2019 11:25

I think we are all aware of who McKay has thrown under the bus.

Sir Niall Dementia 26th Jan 2019 11:53


Originally Posted by helimutt (Post 10371379)
Ok, so now the trend of conversation is towards non legal charter/cost sharing etc and Wingly, whilst not being used in this instance, and being totally legal in the CAA's eyes, I saw this. I was certain that you needed 100+ hours before being a Wingly acceptable pilot. Obv not. 77 hrs in an R22 does not, in my opinion, make someone suitable to fly passengers in an R22. And I flew them for a lot of hours when I first started out. Did I take passengers for quick joyrides with me? yes I did but looking back I never should have. I knew too little. Take a look at this link. It's in the public domain on their website so I don't feel I'm doing anything wrong posting the link, but people will do all sorts to build hours. It's all legal but to me, it looks like its being run as a business by the pilot, not the odd ride in a helicopter. Too pre-planned for my liking.

https://en.wingly.io/index.php?page=flights&flight=1699971

Helimutt:

Jesus! My understanding was that they had dropped helicopters from the site 2 years ago due to the fact that the pilots have to demonstrate they have insurance, and that no insurer would take on these flights. 77 hours in an R22? He doesn't know enough to know how dangerous he is. When I and a couple of others started researching this lot we registered as customers and pilots, as soon as we started really digging they threatened us with lawyers on the basis of the idiotic letter from the CAA. In fact one colleague went to enforcements with that document as we believed it was fake. Even CAA enforcements were shocked to find it was real.

A read of this page is depressing enough, but follow the links to their arrangements with various NAA's, the CAA and EASA:
https://en.wingly.io/index.php?page=...ub_page=safety

I'm 60 in a few years so will have to stop single pilot AOC work by law, maybe this is a way to keep going, But maybe 30+ years and over 17 000 hours makes me over qualified.

SND

ChickenHouse 26th Jan 2019 12:01

You wanna adventure, book a flight offered 'on your discretion' at Wingly with a whooping 50TT pilot with 5hoT ... and we push 60 year old pilots out of service, nuts.

meleagertoo 26th Jan 2019 12:02

Even leaving Wingly aside is it just me or is it beginning to look as though there is a whole, widespread and extensive industry going on in the UK flying illegal charters on N reg (and possibly others) aircraft to the severe detriment of bona-fide AOC operators and the CAA is just sitting there fat, dumb and happy and doing sweet fanny adams about it?
Just how big is this particular elephant in our room?

BigEndBob 26th Jan 2019 12:24

Never realised how that Wingly thing operated, but seeing that link above, the whole concept should be shut down.
And to think of the discussions there have been and fuss about what a trial flight might be.

Also how would insurance get on with the crash flight, are Cardiff city now £15m out of pocket, could cause the club to close.
This could be one of the most complex insurance and big payouts ever for one crash.
What if the players family go for all and sundry.

Sir Niall Dementia 26th Jan 2019 12:28


Originally Posted by meleagertoo (Post 10371430)
Even leaving Wingly aside is it just me or is it beginning to look as though there is a whole, widespread and extensive industry going on in the UK flying illegal charters on N reg (and possibly others) aircraft to the severe detriment of bona-fide AOC operators and the CAA is just sitting there fat, dumb and happy and doing sweet fanny adams about it?
Just how big is this particular elephant in our room?

Has always been so, and in the rotary sector you'll probably find the worst offenders, one of whom cheerfully posts about it on the Rotor Heads forum. In terms of pachyderm size we're roughly at woolly mammoth, and around the same age.

SND


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