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-   -   Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/617514-cardiff-city-footballer-feared-missing-after-aircraft-disappeared-near-channel-island.html)

jsypilot 24th Jan 2019 14:57


Originally Posted by red9 (Post 10369448)
What FAA database are you guys referring to ? Cant find any mention of the pilots name in the FAA airman databsae and would be surprised if hes already been deleted by the FAA ? Cant find anyone I know with an FAA licence on it either ?

This one I imagine:

Airman Query - Aviation Database - AviationDB

OPENDOOR 24th Jan 2019 15:07

In the event of a successful ditching how long would a PA-46 Malibu remain afloat?

Eutychus 24th Jan 2019 15:14


Originally Posted by Aso (Post 10369455)
Proper operation with an AOC, two professional pilots, Multi engine aircraft. MINIMUM

Um, so, should I have been avoiding the Aurigny Trislanders? (I always found it rather touching that the reverse of the safety sheet bore a diagram of the aircraft controls, as though one was supposed to clamber over the seats and take over in the event of pilot incapacitation...)


Originally Posted by rr84c (Post 10369495)
What makes you think a flight in an N-reg plane is more professionally executed? That is total rubbish.

That's not what I said. I said it was my admittedly SLF perception as regards the safety of passengers.The reason being that as pax we were issued safety harnesses, the pilot made sure we had properly attached them and understood their use, gently insisted their spouse wore one too despite protestations, and generally seemed to be paying due care and attention. The G-reg pilot legged it to the plane amid oncoming fog and (again to my untrained eye) took off in a tearing hurry, no flotation device or explanation of any kind.

The regulatory side of things is what I'm trying to get my head around.


The subtlety here on N vs G is that if you have BOTH a UK-issued and US-issued licence, you must have the correct privileges on your US licence when flying an N-reg outside the U.K. Whatever is on your UK licence is irrelevant (despite being in EASA land)
Excuse my ignorance again. Both the N-reg in the accident and the N-reg I flew in over the presumed accident site came from French airspace and were flying in CI airspace. Is this unusual? Would it be typical for non-US based pilots to have the appropriate FAA privileges in this part of the world, or does nobody look at the paperwork too closely (again, it seems to me there are people flying around the CI like this all the time).

[sorry, cross-post with @Edward Teach ]

clareprop 24th Jan 2019 15:15


In the event of a successful ditching how long would a PA-46 Malibu remain afloat?
If, by some miracle you did manage to carry out a text-book ditching at night into a relatively calm winter sea, my guess is 10-15 minutes. My other guess is that this was not a text-book ditching.

Aso 24th Jan 2019 15:19


Um, so, I should I have been avoiding the Aurigny Trislanders? (I always found it rather touching that the reverse of the safety sheet bore a diagram of the aircraft controls, as though one was supposed to clamber over the seats and take over in the event of pilot incapacitation...)
That is up to you. He asks advice... I never fly on the single engine, single pilot helicopters from Nice to Monaco for that reason. Even though Jean Pierre might be a 60 or so ex Military hot shot.. ;)

ChickenHouse 24th Jan 2019 15:27


Originally Posted by jsypilot (Post 10369523)

That one is the worst reference and a long time outdated copy, even pulled before data protection rules closed access to personal data, of the FAA database: https://amsrvs.registry.faa.gov/airmeninquiry/.

Sorry for my ignorance, did not look it up - is CI airspace UK airspace? The answer to @Eutychus may be easy, many FAA 61.75 holder are not aware of EASA not being the country of issuance of their original license ;-).

diffident 24th Jan 2019 15:30


Originally Posted by clareprop (Post 10369539)
If, by some miracle you did manage to carry out a text-book ditching at night into a relatively calm winter sea, my guess is 10-15 minutes. My other guess is that this was not a text-book ditching.

Indeed, so far there doesn't appear to be anything at all text-book about this incident.

Downwind Lander 24th Jan 2019 15:31

We are back in the familiar territory of an aircraft evaporating without trace.

This time, the area is in the middle of Europe. Tomnod is dead and the RAF have Reapers in Lincolnshire which are still in Lincolnshire (or maybe the Middle East, of course). This is an organisational mess. This should not be happening.

Silver Pegasus 24th Jan 2019 15:41


Originally Posted by Downwind Lander (Post 10369555)
We are back in the familiar territory of an aircraft evaporating without trace.

This time, the area is in the middle of Europe. Tomnod is dead and the RAF have Reapers in Lincolnshire which are still in Lincolnshire (or maybe the Middle East, of course). This is an organisational mess. This should not be happening.

We have cars and people going missing across the country every day, on land, in perfect weather.. Not sure I get your point. It had a Mode A/C transponder, they know roughly where it ditched, It is pretty obvious where it is now and no Reaper (would have ended up in the same circumstance if launched at the time) or slow Satellite tasking would have helped there.

I agree is should have had something like a Pilot Aware or Mode S transponder onboard which would have helped but it is all cost and no regs currently requiring them to. Plus at the end of the day, the aircraft would still be underwater.

Next caller...

Eutychus 24th Jan 2019 15:41


Originally Posted by Aso (Post 10369544)
That is up to you. He asks advice... I never fly on the single engine, single pilot helicopters from Nice to Monaco for that reason. Even though Jean Pierre might be a 60 or so ex Military hot shot.. ;)

Ugh, you wouldn't get me into a helicopter unless there was a really good reason. Not enough redundancy.

I appreciate this is a judgement call. From my personal humble SLF perspective hopping between France and the Channel Islands on SE planes in daytime in mild, calm weather during which some land is always in sight appears acceptably safe - not least because the practice is widespread.

What this discussion is teaching me is that beneath this simple perception lies a veritable thicket for us SLF of poorly perceived relative risks, poorly understood qualifications/licences/certifications/insurance cover, and very unclear arrangements regarding paying passengers depending on whether charter is spelled with a small c or a big C. All of which, apart from loss of life, has the potential to go pear-shaped very quickly if a passenger is valuable in some way in addition to their intrinsic value as a human being, as is the case in this incident.

Good Business Sense 24th Jan 2019 15:47


Originally Posted by Eutychus (Post 10369475)
So, without naming and shaming, what are all those single-engine aircraft with part-time pilots operating out of Guernsey and Jersey with various paying passengers hopping in and out of the back doing all day and why? Do regular CI GA pilots agree with the above assessment?

+ ISLE OF MAN

helimutt 24th Jan 2019 15:48


Originally Posted by Eutychus (Post 10369475)
So, without naming and shaming, what are all those single-engine aircraft with part-time pilots operating out of Guernsey and Jersey with various paying passengers hopping in and out of the back doing all day and why? Do regular CI GA pilots agree with the above assessment?


You don't necessarily need two pilots. A decent airplane, a qualified/rated/experienced pilot and proper procedures in place. Lets not go down the route that single pilot ops are inherently dangerous.

helimutt 24th Jan 2019 15:50


Originally Posted by Aso (Post 10369455)
Proper operation with an AOC, two professional pilots, Multi engine aircraft. MINIMUM

Multi engine for the correct conditions?. Two crew for the correct conditions?. I know many pilots who fly single pilot regularly all over the place quite safely. Some of them have even flown in and out of the Channel Islands on charters. Hard to believe, I know, but it's true. Non of them crashed either.

rr84c 24th Jan 2019 16:01


Originally Posted by Eutychus (Post 10369537)
Um, so, should I have been avoiding the Aurigny Trislanders? (I always found it rather touching that the reverse of the safety sheet bore a diagram of the aircraft controls, as though one was supposed to clamber over the seats and take over in the event of pilot incapacitation...)



That's not what I said. I said it was my admittedly SLF perception as regards the safety of passengers.The reason being that as pax we were issued safety harnesses, the pilot made sure we had properly attached them and understood their use, gently insisted their spouse wore one too despite protestations, and generally seemed to be paying due care and attention. The G-reg pilot legged it to the plane amid oncoming fog and (again to my untrained eye) took off in a tearing hurry, no flotation device or explanation of any kind.

The regulatory side of things is what I'm trying to get my head around.



Excuse my ignorance again. Both the N-reg in the accident and the N-reg I flew in over the presumed accident site came from French airspace and were flying in CI airspace. Is this unusual? Would it be typical for non-US based pilots to have the appropriate FAA privileges in this part of the world, or does nobody look at the paperwork too closely (again, it seems to me there are people flying around the CI like this all the time).

[sorry, cross-post with @Edward Teach ]

N-reg aircraft flying around Europe is not unusual, and I would suspect (but note I have no evidence to support) the pilots being properly licensed. Most pilots appreciate that the paperwork is there to keep them and passengers safe and legal, so they follow it.

helimutt 24th Jan 2019 16:06


Originally Posted by Eutychus (Post 10369566)
Ugh, you wouldn't get me into a helicopter unless there was a really good reason. Not enough redundancy.

I appreciate this is a judgement call. From my personal humble SLF perspective hopping between France and the Channel Islands on SE planes in daytime in mild, calm weather during which some land is always in sight appears acceptably safe - not least because the practice is widespread.

What this discussion is teaching me is that beneath this simple perception lies a veritable thicket for us SLF of poorly perceived relative risks, poorly understood qualifications/licences/certifications/insurance cover, and very unclear arrangements regarding paying passengers depending on whether charter is spelled with a small c or a big C. All of which, apart from loss of life, has the potential to go pear-shaped very quickly if a passenger is valuable in some way in addition to their intrinsic value as a human being, as is the case in this incident.

Nothing wrong with helicopters. Safe when maintained correctly and flown within the correct flight envelope. At least that's what I tell myself every time I go to work.

Edward Teach 24th Jan 2019 16:12


Originally Posted by helimutt (Post 10369594)
Nothing wrong with helicopters. Safe when maintained correctly and flown within the correct flight envelope. At least that's what I tell myself every time I go to work.

I'm fairly sure VSKP was maintained correctly and being flown within the correct flight envelope! As was LN-OJF, G-REDL and G-TIGK.

Auxtank 24th Jan 2019 16:49

Search called off at 15:15 z

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-46992612



Twitter feed from Guernsey Police:

oggers 24th Jan 2019 16:56


Originally Posted by _pudknocker_ (Post 10369624)
Its up to the pilot to keep their licences and ratings current, its their licence and nobody else’s responsibly. Also if you are going to fly the bloody thing that’s you’re responsibility as well. The two you mention were accidents waiting to happen, both had scant regard for the system.

Spot on. Ultimate responsibility is with the PIC and operator. He may have delegated the admin but he still had 100% of the responsibility to check it was in order.

vanHorck 24th Jan 2019 17:13

So in due course we will know if there was anything illegal about this flight, but I doubt we'll ever know what was the sequence of events prior or after the flight into icing conditions I wonder how hard and expensive it would be to have flight data recorders installed in single engine GA planes, when they are fitted out with (part) electronic cockpits, possibly with a locating beacon. We would get so many more valuable lessons. The current FDRs are probably too expensive, but it may become cheaper with the current technology?

windypops 24th Jan 2019 17:27


Originally Posted by Eutychus (Post 10369475)
So, without naming and shaming, what are all those single-engine aircraft with part-time pilots operating out of Guernsey and Jersey with various paying passengers hopping in and out of the back doing all day and why? Do regular CI GA pilots agree with the above assessment?

If you suspect it’s happening, call the police. I did. They were great, took a statement from me, 48 hours later the “illegal charter operator” had ceased doing dodgy charters. The police called me 3 days later to inform me what they had done, thanked me and advised me to report any future illegal activities.


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