PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Accidents and Close Calls (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls-139/)
-   -   Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/617514-cardiff-city-footballer-feared-missing-after-aircraft-disappeared-near-channel-island.html)

runway30 24th Jan 2019 21:31

From the Sun so I have no way to verify whether this is true or not.

“Mr Ibbotson belonged to three “ferry flight” Facebook groups where companies advertise flying jobs and had worked for Mr McKay before using the same plane.

He flew Nice FC general manager Julien Fournier from Surrey to the French port of Marseille in the single-engined US-registered Piper last year.

A source said: “Pilots are offered cash, airline tickets and hotel rooms in exchange for flying brand new aircraft to customers, or flying customers.”


runway30 24th Jan 2019 21:58


Originally Posted by mikebrant (Post 10369876)


I’m not sure I am following you here: there is only one person in charge and it’s the pilot. He can always say “no”.
Also I would be interested to know more about the second, much more experienced pilot, that alledgedely decided to not go with them at the last minute (after passing Nantes’ airport controls.)

If, and I don’t know if this is the case here, a pilot is recruited by someone who knows he doesn’t have the correct qualifications but knows he is cheap; is it only the pilot who is at fault or the person offering the money as well? If, and I don’t know if this the case here, an aircraft owner doesn’t enquire what their aircraft is going to be used for and doesn’t care about the qualifications of the pilot; is it only the pilot who is at fault or the aircraft owner as well?

runway30 24th Jan 2019 22:16


Originally Posted by mikebrant (Post 10369876)


I’m not sure I am following you here: there is only one person in charge and it’s the pilot. He can always say “no”.
Also I would be interested to know more about the second, much more experienced pilot, that alledgedely decided to not go with them at the last minute (after passing Nantes’ airport controls.)

Mike, the second pilot has been named on the internet as Dave Henderson, indeed for a time the media posted him as missing with the aircraft. However, Dave has unequivocally stated that he was not there.

ea200 24th Jan 2019 22:17

Reading comments on this thread about people failing to find themselves or people they know on the FAA database, I decided to look myself up. Not there apparently. After a bit of experimentation I discovered that if I removed all of the search terms except my name the entry came up. Did bring to my attention the fact that the FAA certificate is linked to a UK licence number which is not the one I have now. Not sure what I have to do about that but I will wait until after Brexit before bothering to find out!

DaveReidUK 24th Jan 2019 22:38


Originally Posted by ea200 (Post 10369958)
Reading comments on this thread about people failing to find themselves or people they know on the FAA database

From: https://registry.faa.gov/database/CS012019.zip:


On April 5, 2000, the Wendell H. Ford Aviation Investment and Reform Act for the 21st Century became Public Law 106-181. Section 715 of that law requires the Federal Aviation Administration to release names, addresses, and ratings information for all airmen after the 120th day following the date of enactment.

The law also requires that the airmen be given an opportunity to elect that their address information be withheld from release under this law. Accordingly, the FAA sent letters to all active airmen informing them of the provisions of the law, and giving them the option to withhold their address information. The FAA will be continuing this procedure for airmen who become active. Responses from the letters have been processed.

This file contains the names, addresses, and certificate information of those airmen who did not respond to indicate that they wished to withhold their address information.




WHBM 24th Jan 2019 23:23


Originally Posted by vintage ATCO (Post 10369839)
The last visibility Hill was given for Elstree was 800m with no instrument let down .

I believe it was suspected he had devised an "instrument" descent of his own, based on a back-course along a Lambourne VOR radial and DME. I think someone had seen him do it before.

Tankertrashnav 24th Jan 2019 23:39


I humbly beg to differ. Painful as it may be, apart from cavalier attitudes to keeping their ratings current (they weren't), the main issues in both the the Colin McCrae and Graham Hill incidents were two pilots who had higher opinions of their skills than they, in truth, had. This caused their deaths and those of eight innocent members of the public flying with them.
I think I may have been the first to mention the Graham Hill accident on this thread. Before commenting I went back and read the B of I to verify that what I had remembered was correct. My main point was that the primary cause was the well known and all too common phenomenon of "get homeitis" in that he chose to attempt a very difficult approach in marginal conditions, when he had the opportunity to divert to airfields with no weather problems. Hill definitely had form here, including an earlier incident when he landed unannounced at Elstree at night after the airfield had closed. Having a cavalier attitude to safety may have been ok in the world of F1 in the 60s and 70s. but those attitudes do not transfer well to aviation, particularly when it is not just your own neck you are risking

jecuk 25th Jan 2019 00:06


Originally Posted by ea200 (Post 10369958)
Did bring to my attention the fact that the FAA certificate is linked to a UK licence number which is not the one I have now. Not sure what I have to do about that but I will wait until after Brexit before bothering to find out!

You have to go through the full verification process again. Your FAA certificate is not valid right now.

tescoapp 25th Jan 2019 05:22

The pilot was 60 years old. So wouldn't have been allowed to do commercial single pilot ops under EASA regs.

I won't post a picture of the pilot, but he doesn't look as if he is in the prime of health for his age.

The Old Fat One 25th Jan 2019 06:04


Hill’s FAA IR had lapsed, so had his UK IMC rating; his UK PPL was still valid. The aeroplane’s US registration had been cancelled three years previously; it was unregistered and stateless.
And effectively uninsured . I believe his estate was was sued and his family lost their home.

...he (Damon Hill) and his mother and two sisters were to discover that, because important documents had not been kept in order, the insurance policies were invalid. The consequences effectively ruined them...

It is for this reason amongst several others, that I believe the time is right for a far more transparent, clear, consistent and effectively policed compliance regime in all aspects of GA flying that involves the carriage of passengers. Period.

ATC Watcher 25th Jan 2019 06:10


Originally Posted by Ninja as (Post 10369862)
I stand to be corrected but there is more than ATC radar cover in this area especially with the sensitivity of a nuclear power plant on the coast.
Standing by!

Yes that puzzled me as well as there is at least a dozen civil radar covering the area, and of course the French and UK air force primary radars. now how low they go is another question , which I do not have the answer.. Tracking in real time is difficult, but post accident , with filters ?
Anyway to locate a small aircraft in the sea with accuracy is very difficult , even when you know precisely where it went down .

A Cessna 206 went down 10 years back taking off from Ajaccio Corsica only a few miles from the coast in daytime, SAR had the exact position the a/c went down , the pax were in a small dinghy , helicopter was on site within minutes but it took them over 7 hours to find them. In fact they only found them when it was night , using IR googles , one pilot spotted the small lamp of one pax life vest ! . The sea was rough. The PIC, was an AF 777 pilot with is wife and parents on board, ,he wrote a few years ago a very good detailed article about it in an aviation magazine in France .
Some info here just found on internet for those interested : ( in french ) :. C206 ajaccio 2009

Eutychus 25th Jan 2019 06:28


Originally Posted by ATC Watcher (Post 10370135)
In fact they only found them when it was night , using IR googles , one pilot spotted the small lamp of one pax life vest !

Just a minor detail, the article says they were found thanks to thermal IR detection.


Les militaires et les gendarmes, qui ont des lunettes infrarouges, ont pu nous repérer [dans la nuit] grâce aux taches de chaleur.
.

And with reference to my own question about CI flying practices, further up, a PPL acquaintance writes:


It's perfectly possible for a small flying club to also run a private charter business using beaten up 4 seaters and as a way of building hours for recently qualified commercial pilots. But they still need an AOC and the plane still needs to be flown by someone with a CPL minimum.
So it would seem that the key question for conscientious SLF to ask anyone proposing to fly them in such an aircraft against payment is: "do you have an AOC and a CPL?" Which may or may not have been the case for the flights I took above.

*

ChickenHouse 25th Jan 2019 06:38

Whats all this talk on insurance? Considered we talk of a young soccer player just changing club for a whopping £15m, a law engagement if started will be in the 10 years lost income compensation scheme and well in the three digit £XXXm region. So, if there was something wrong that way, the widow and family of the pilot are doomed.

Please let us focus here on the pilotty thingies!

PDR1 25th Jan 2019 06:42


Originally Posted by Eutychus (Post 10370149)
Just a minor detail, the article says they were found thanks to thermal IR detection.


Erm...what other kind of IR detection do you think there is??

PDR

Eutychus 25th Jan 2019 06:50


Originally Posted by PDR1 (Post 10370157)
Erm...what other kind of IR detection do you think there is??

PDR

I was referring to this statement which does not appear accurate, possibly because of the linked article not being in the poster's native language:


Originally Posted by ATC Watcher (Post 10370135)
In fact they only found them when it was night , using IR googles , one pilot spotted the small lamp of one pax life vest !


Flap 80 25th Jan 2019 07:31


So how prevalent is this type of flying , possibly bypassing the safeguards afforded by an AOC holder.
The Jersey Aero Club public Facebook page has a post from January 21st inviting someone to “ QUOTE ( a price) ” to transport a person from the Southampton area to Jersey on a certain date in March to “avoid” the need to fly from LGW.
Or is this perfectly acceptable under cost sharing rules and is effectively a Wingly type of service being offered but where the potential customer has no knowledge of the Pilots ability or experience?

dsc810 25th Jan 2019 07:46


Originally Posted by ChickenHouse (Post 10370154)
Whats all this talk on insurance? Considered we talk of a young soccer player just changing club for a whopping £15m, a law engagement if started will be in the 10 years lost income compensation scheme and well in the three digit £XXXm region. So, if there was something wrong that way, the widow and family of the pilot are doomed.

It will all depend on many things as to whether the cover is valid.
It may be that insurance cover from the club has not yet started as the player seems to have not yet started training.
It maybe that anyway such cover is conditional on certain higher risk activities and sports not being carried out. I know one of such policy banning the individual from skiing.
I'm sure we will discover that in reality the pilot was deep in debt and that his estate is insolvent - so all those who think they can get any money out of the deceased pilot's estate will be told to Go Whistle Dixie/Foxtrot Oscar.


ChickenHouse 25th Jan 2019 07:46


Originally Posted by Flap 80 (Post 10370178)
Or is this perfectly acceptable under cost sharing rules and is effectively a Wingly type of service being offered but where the potential customer has no knowledge of the Pilots ability or experience?

The European way to let grey areas slip through law enforcement and accept an economy based on 'networking', formerly known as corruption, is legendary. No, I do not find it acceptable to wreck the economical basis of trade by allowing private efforts slip underneath the legal layer agreed. What is called 'sharing society', formerly known as barter trading before the invention of money, is a huge step backwards in history. There is nothing wrong in favor among friends and neighbors, but that is always based on personal connection. Go a 'Wingly type of service' is trying to de-personalize personal relation, replacing friendship by artificial 'friendship'. It may be another world, but it is definitely not mine.

ChickenHouse 25th Jan 2019 07:51


Originally Posted by dsc810 (Post 10370188)
It will all depend on many things as to whether the cover is valid.
It may be that insurance cover from the club has not yet started as the player seems to have not yet started training.
It maybe that anyway such cover is conditional on certain higher risk activities and sports not being carried out. I know one of such policy banning the individual from skiing.
I'm sure we will discover that in reality the pilot was deep in debt and that his estate is insolvent - so all those who think they can get any money out of the deceased pilot's estate will be told to Go Whistle Dixie/Foxtrot Oscar.

My point is, validity of cover is unimportant as the potential sums in question exceed anything I saw at such aircraft.
I suspect the reality, if ever revealed, may shock us all.

Somebody named similar a while ago on another unrelated issue 'walking accident to happen'.

Eutychus 25th Jan 2019 07:52


Originally Posted by ChickenHouse (Post 10370189)
The European way to let grey areas slip through law enforcement and accept an economy based on 'networking', formerly known as corruption, is legendary. No, I do not find it acceptable to wreck the economical basis of trade by allowing private efforts slip underneath the legal layer agreed. What is called 'sharing society', formerly known as barter trading before the invention of money, is a huge step backwards in history. There is nothing wrong in favor among friends and neighbors, but that is always based on personal connection. Go a 'Wingly type of service' is trying to de-personalize personal relation, replacing friendship by artificial 'friendship'. It may be another world, but it is definitely not mine.

Flap 80 has absolutely nailed what I'm concerned about. However, my concern right here is not about personal preferences in terms of the ethics of business transactions but about the legal and insurance ramifications if (when?) it all goes wrong, especially given the kind of clientele one can reasonably expect to be flying in and out of the CI.


All times are GMT. The time now is 15:04.


Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.