Light aircraft crash IWM Duxford
The SR22T is a very capable aircraft, and an extremely expensive one. It has sold well not least because of Cirrus marketing it to well off individuals as a very efficient transport solution. Some owners even learn to fly on these complex aircraft. The parachute, highly advanced avionics and pretty solid training options have made the aircraft an attractive and accessible option. The downside is that there are people with not a lot of real hands on flying experience operating them. I deliberately use the word operating rather than flying. As a retired airline captain I was impressed by how similar the experience was to flying a jet. You log a lot of time in a Cirrus with the autopilot on and at 400 euros plus an hour they are not really that attractive an option for doing circuits, however much money you have. But I intend to do a few more than I usually would now the flying season is upon us.
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There have been several TBM700 accidents with lots of power(torque) applied at very low speeds leading to uncontrolled flight and crash. One doesn't typically think of an SR-22 as some sort of high performance WWII handling fighter aircraft and having flown one, I certainly don't. But, I suppose if one is on the edge of a stall and suddenly adds lots of power, they can end up in a situation like this. Perhaps, there was a lack of proper rudder input.
It can be the instinctive mind, in this case wanting as much power as possible due a high state of concern being so close to the ground and wanting to avoid nosegear damage. I have been in the situation(sliding on ice in a vehicle toward an object) where the instinctive brain takes over and one just continues applying as much faulty application as is physically possible. In my case it was demanding more and more braking when less braking which if modulated would likely have been preferential(and yes, I hit the object firmly). In the airplane case, it can be less power is better but the instinctive brain that has taken over is demanding full power and even more if it were possible.
While there may be more to this particular accident, I would take away from these high power engine accidents on certain aircraft is to avoid very large power applications in near stall situations like this, when in an aircraft having a significantly large amount of power. Consider a partial application of power at first with reasonably brisk application to regain control and then smoothly add more power as required. In order to make it a more likely action, a quick reminder prior to flight(or approach) could be useful, so that it has been reviewed recently.
Many pilots will have a background of rapid power applications on lower-powered aircraft where it was not an issue which can continue over to a new relatively high-powered aircraft.
It can be the instinctive mind, in this case wanting as much power as possible due a high state of concern being so close to the ground and wanting to avoid nosegear damage. I have been in the situation(sliding on ice in a vehicle toward an object) where the instinctive brain takes over and one just continues applying as much faulty application as is physically possible. In my case it was demanding more and more braking when less braking which if modulated would likely have been preferential(and yes, I hit the object firmly). In the airplane case, it can be less power is better but the instinctive brain that has taken over is demanding full power and even more if it were possible.
While there may be more to this particular accident, I would take away from these high power engine accidents on certain aircraft is to avoid very large power applications in near stall situations like this, when in an aircraft having a significantly large amount of power. Consider a partial application of power at first with reasonably brisk application to regain control and then smoothly add more power as required. In order to make it a more likely action, a quick reminder prior to flight(or approach) could be useful, so that it has been reviewed recently.
Many pilots will have a background of rapid power applications on lower-powered aircraft where it was not an issue which can continue over to a new relatively high-powered aircraft.
Last edited by punkalouver; 28th Mar 2024 at 16:40.
Good post Punkalouver! Incidentally I knew someone who managed to do something pretty similar on an ultralight so selecting full power on any aircraft in this flight regime needs to be considered carefully.
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I've seen a pic of a Grumman Bearcat in knife edge with gear and flaps down - it had been waved off from a carrier, presumably late 1940s; apparently too much power at low airspeed and I believe it described a complete roll before being flown away by the lucky pilot!
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I’ve mentioned this incident before..
An RAF navigator I used to fly with told me how, in his earlier days he was training as a pilot on Balliol aircraft (Merlin engined). During a night solo flight he decided to go around from a very low, slow approach. As he applied a lot of power, the aircraft allegedly (according to ATC) did at least two 360° rolls before climbing. The pilot was so frightened he withdrew from pilot training and became a navigator.
He also told me that at that time, on my first tour, his nav bag was older than me!
An RAF navigator I used to fly with told me how, in his earlier days he was training as a pilot on Balliol aircraft (Merlin engined). During a night solo flight he decided to go around from a very low, slow approach. As he applied a lot of power, the aircraft allegedly (according to ATC) did at least two 360° rolls before climbing. The pilot was so frightened he withdrew from pilot training and became a navigator.
He also told me that at that time, on my first tour, his nav bag was older than me!
A few thought on go-rounds
From John Deakin, discussing the dangers of full power low speed go-rounds in higher performance aircraft.
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There have been several TBM700 accidents with lots of power(torque) applied at very low speeds leading to uncontrolled flight and crash. One doesn't typically think of an SR-22 as some sort of high performance WWII handling fighter aircraft and having flown one, I certainly don't. But, I suppose if one is on the edge of a stall and suddenly adds lots of power, they can end up in a situation like this. Perhaps, there was a lack of proper rudder input.
It can be the instinctive mind, in this case wanting as much power as possible due a high state of concern being so close to the ground and wanting to avoid nosegear damage. I have been in the situation(sliding on ice in a vehicle toward an object) where the instinctive brain takes over and one just continues applying as much faulty application as is physically possible. In my case it was demanding more and more braking when less braking which if modulated would likely have been preferential(and yes, I hit the object firmly). In the airplane case, it can be less power is better but the instinctive brain that has taken over is demanding full power and even more if it were possible.
While there may be more to this particular accident, I would take away from these high power engine accidents on certain aircraft is to avoid very large power applications in near stall situations like this, when in an aircraft having a significantly large amount of power. Consider a partial application of power at first with reasonably brisk application to regain control and then smoothly add more power as required. In order to make it a more likely action, a quick reminder prior to flight(or approach) could be useful, so that it has been reviewed recently.
Many pilots will have a background of rapid power applications on lower-powered aircraft where it was not an issue which can continue over to a new relatively high-powered aircraft.
It can be the instinctive mind, in this case wanting as much power as possible due a high state of concern being so close to the ground and wanting to avoid nosegear damage. I have been in the situation(sliding on ice in a vehicle toward an object) where the instinctive brain takes over and one just continues applying as much faulty application as is physically possible. In my case it was demanding more and more braking when less braking which if modulated would likely have been preferential(and yes, I hit the object firmly). In the airplane case, it can be less power is better but the instinctive brain that has taken over is demanding full power and even more if it were possible.
While there may be more to this particular accident, I would take away from these high power engine accidents on certain aircraft is to avoid very large power applications in near stall situations like this, when in an aircraft having a significantly large amount of power. Consider a partial application of power at first with reasonably brisk application to regain control and then smoothly add more power as required. In order to make it a more likely action, a quick reminder prior to flight(or approach) could be useful, so that it has been reviewed recently.
Many pilots will have a background of rapid power applications on lower-powered aircraft where it was not an issue which can continue over to a new relatively high-powered aircraft.
I have been allowed to try the SR22 for a few flights, and am currently the owner of a 315 HP high performance aircraft and have been the owner of a Sukhoi 29 with 450 HP M14P Engine.
These aircraft don't have enough torque - compared to the immense power to weight ratio and propeller disks diameters of WW2 fighters- (Even the Sukhoi 29 with its 2,60 m diameter MTV-9 Muhlabuer prop) to interfere with a sudden full power application at low speed. They will torque roll in the air -which is an aerobatic maneuver- but at a very slow roll rate.
Your analogy with the car is spot on. Take an automobile and when you loose grip, especially with those old rear wheel drive without stability control, (Yes decades ago you needed to know how to handle them), the instinct to release accelerator pedal and brake ( Which is the right thing to do under normal conditions) made the situation worse, as by doing so the weight due to inertia shifted forward and the car started spinning. Likewise a mororcycle in a bend will not turn by shifting the drivers weight but only when destablising the gyroscopic effect of balance by countersteering in the direction opposite to the turn.
The laws of physics coming into play in these "Extreme" scenarios, are not an opinion, they are non negotiable; An aircraft at the backside of the envelope, automobile when starting to drift, motorcycle when cornering at high speed require techniques, skills, awareness and knowledge which are not part of the driving or pilot's licence. There is a need for further training.
An SR22 is definitely high performance when compared to the older spam cams; It is twitchy at low speed and needs precise inputs, you must be gentle, quick and must be right.
The SR22 will need the attention and the skills it takes to confidently fly an extra 300 in the backside of the corner envelope. I.E. one has to be gentle with very littke inputs on the stick, coordinated with right foot application to correct yaw due to slipstream and P factor, and pick up any tendency of a dropping wing correcting with opposite foor NEVER with opposite aileron. And NEVER pull on the yoke when down and low and slow.
Cirrus has a dedicated course, I would strongly recommend in addition to take a few flights, not doing any aerobatics but just indulge into the backside corner of the flight envelope with an Extra 300 with a suitable instructor. It will give a level and confidence and skills which will likely not only have you enjoy a fantastic machine but to be in control and safe in any scenario.
Last edited by markkal; 31st Mar 2024 at 09:42.
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There have been several TBM700 accidents with lots of power(torque) applied at very low speeds leading to uncontrolled flight and crash. One doesn't typically think of an SR-22 as some sort of high performance WWII handling fighter aircraft and having flown one, I certainly don't. But, I suppose if one is on the edge of a stall and suddenly adds lots of power, they can end up in a situation like this. Perhaps, there was a lack of proper rudder input.
It can be the instinctive mind, in this case wanting as much power as possible due a high state of concern being so close to the ground and wanting to avoid nosegear damage. I have been in the situation(sliding on ice in a vehicle toward an object) where the instinctive brain takes over and one just continues applying as much faulty application as is physically possible. In my case it was demanding more and more braking when less braking which if modulated would likely have been preferential(and yes, I hit the object firmly). In the airplane case, it can be less power is better but the instinctive brain that has taken over is demanding full power and even more if it were possible.
While there may be more to this particular accident, I would take away from these high power engine accidents on certain aircraft is to avoid very large power applications in near stall situations like this, when in an aircraft having a significantly large amount of power. Consider a partial application of power at first with reasonably brisk application to regain control and then smoothly add more power as required. In order to make it a more likely action, a quick reminder prior to flight(or approach) could be useful, so that it has been reviewed recently.
Many pilots will have a background of rapid power applications on lower-powered aircraft where it was not an issue which can continue over to a new relatively high-powered aircraft.
It can be the instinctive mind, in this case wanting as much power as possible due a high state of concern being so close to the ground and wanting to avoid nosegear damage. I have been in the situation(sliding on ice in a vehicle toward an object) where the instinctive brain takes over and one just continues applying as much faulty application as is physically possible. In my case it was demanding more and more braking when less braking which if modulated would likely have been preferential(and yes, I hit the object firmly). In the airplane case, it can be less power is better but the instinctive brain that has taken over is demanding full power and even more if it were possible.
While there may be more to this particular accident, I would take away from these high power engine accidents on certain aircraft is to avoid very large power applications in near stall situations like this, when in an aircraft having a significantly large amount of power. Consider a partial application of power at first with reasonably brisk application to regain control and then smoothly add more power as required. In order to make it a more likely action, a quick reminder prior to flight(or approach) could be useful, so that it has been reviewed recently.
Many pilots will have a background of rapid power applications on lower-powered aircraft where it was not an issue which can continue over to a new relatively high-powered aircraft.
Excellent post Punkalover
I have been allowed to try the SR22 of a friend, and am currently the owner of a 315 HP high performance aircraft and have been the owner of a Sukhoi 29 with 450 HP M14P Engine.
These aircraft don't have enough torque - compared to the immense power to weight ratio and propeller disks diameters of WW2 fighters- (Even the Sukhoi 29 with its 2,60 m diameter MTV-9 Muhlabuer prop) to interfere with a sudden full power application at low speed. They will torque roll in the air -which is an aerobatic maneuver- but at a very slow roll rate.
Your analogy with the car is spot on. Take an automobile and when you loose grip, especially with those old rear wheel drive without stability control, (Yes decades ago you needed to know how to handle them), the instinct to brake made the situation worse, as by doing so the weight due to inertia shifted forward and the car started spinning. Likewise a mororcycle in a bend will not turn by shifting the drivers weight but only when destablising the gyroscopic effect of balance by countersteering in the direction opposite to the turn.
Physics is not an opinion; An aircraft at the backside of the envelope, automobile when starting to drift, motorcycle when cornering at high speed need techniques, skills, awareness and knowledge which are not part of the driving or pilot's licence. There is a needd for further training.
An SR22 is definitely high performance when compared to the older spam cams; It is twitchy at low speed and needs precise inputs, you must be gentle, quick and must be right.
The SR22 will need the attention and the skills it takes to confidently fly an extra 300 in the backside of the corner envelope. I.E. one has to be gentle with very littke inputs on the stick, coordinated with right foot application to correct yaw due to slipstream and P factor, and pick up any tendency of a dropping wing correcting with opposite foor NEVER with opposite aileron. And NEVER pull on the yoke when down and low.
Cirrus has a dedicated course, I would strongly recommend to take a few flights, not doing any aerobatics but just exple the backside corner of the flight envelope with an Extra 300 with a suitable instructor. It will give a level and confidence and skills which will likely not only have you enjoy a fantastic machine but to be in control and safe in any scenario.
I have been allowed to try the SR22 of a friend, and am currently the owner of a 315 HP high performance aircraft and have been the owner of a Sukhoi 29 with 450 HP M14P Engine.
These aircraft don't have enough torque - compared to the immense power to weight ratio and propeller disks diameters of WW2 fighters- (Even the Sukhoi 29 with its 2,60 m diameter MTV-9 Muhlabuer prop) to interfere with a sudden full power application at low speed. They will torque roll in the air -which is an aerobatic maneuver- but at a very slow roll rate.
Your analogy with the car is spot on. Take an automobile and when you loose grip, especially with those old rear wheel drive without stability control, (Yes decades ago you needed to know how to handle them), the instinct to brake made the situation worse, as by doing so the weight due to inertia shifted forward and the car started spinning. Likewise a mororcycle in a bend will not turn by shifting the drivers weight but only when destablising the gyroscopic effect of balance by countersteering in the direction opposite to the turn.
Physics is not an opinion; An aircraft at the backside of the envelope, automobile when starting to drift, motorcycle when cornering at high speed need techniques, skills, awareness and knowledge which are not part of the driving or pilot's licence. There is a needd for further training.
An SR22 is definitely high performance when compared to the older spam cams; It is twitchy at low speed and needs precise inputs, you must be gentle, quick and must be right.
The SR22 will need the attention and the skills it takes to confidently fly an extra 300 in the backside of the corner envelope. I.E. one has to be gentle with very littke inputs on the stick, coordinated with right foot application to correct yaw due to slipstream and P factor, and pick up any tendency of a dropping wing correcting with opposite foor NEVER with opposite aileron. And NEVER pull on the yoke when down and low.
Cirrus has a dedicated course, I would strongly recommend to take a few flights, not doing any aerobatics but just exple the backside corner of the flight envelope with an Extra 300 with a suitable instructor. It will give a level and confidence and skills which will likely not only have you enjoy a fantastic machine but to be in control and safe in any scenario.
Far too many pilots are not taught how and why to use the rudders properly (they are not 'foot rests'"").
Don't 'under-rate' "the older spam cams"!! The old ones that I learnt on made you very, very much aware of the use of rudder and the effects of power!
....... and even "secondary effects of controls" (including things like the throttle) is well worth referring back to when Instructing more advanced things such as go-arounds or even on annual check flights. As a general observation, often those early lessons, flown in the heady early days of training, seem to be forgotten yet can save lives - even on quite "docile" types. I've had students who have taken the correct initial appropriate actions ..... but then sort of seemed to psychologically assume they needn't worry any more as the original issue had been solved ......... forgetting that they had now initiated several other "unusual" things which they now need to sort out.
The only way to quickly learn coordination is to learn to fly a tailwheel even a PA18.
When I take a power pilot for their first glider ride in my club's DG-1000 (20 m span), I get them to try a medium turn, using ailerons only. They are often very surprised by the 30º yaw in the opposite direction!
I've flown an SR-22 and I found it quite easy to fly - perhaps that's because of my glider background. I felt I would be comfortable flying it after another hour or two of slow-flying and circuits. The electronic systems were a whole different matter. I figured I would need multiple hours of study and airborne practice.
On my one SR-22 flight, I found myself often sneaking glances at the steam gauges below the display!
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'Watch him spin, watch him burn, he took off bank in a low speed turn' An Americanism. Demonstrated to me in a Sedburgh in my ATC days. Was asked to demonstrate a spin. Very lazy affair. Went up again, tried to pick up the downgoing wing just before the stall with full opposite aileron. What a huge surprise!!. Never ever forgot that!! Downgoing wing accelerated massively into a spin. ... Be good if all power pilots flew gliders first???........
After 10 spins in a row (a) I was feeling rather queasy and (b) the Approach Radar at an adjacent International airport must have been wondering "What the hell????????!!!" and (c) fuel was starting to get low (the excuse I finally used to "knock it off") so we called it a day! She, however, was ready for more!!!!
Most importantly, she was, by then, fully aware again of how easy it was get into a spin by various means....... and how long it took to get out of one if it got fully established and how to recover from an incipient spin and what additional problems that could bring if she was not ready for them (in a humble C172). All forgotten over the preceding hundreds of hours she'd flown!
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Or fly a glider.
When I take a power pilot for their first glider ride in my club's DG-1000 (20 m span), I get them to try a medium turn, using ailerons only. They are often very surprised by the 30º yaw in the opposite direction!
I've flown an SR-22 and I found it quite easy to fly - perhaps that's because of my glider background. I felt I would be comfortable flying it after another hour or two of slow-flying and circuits. The electronic systems were a whole different matter. I figured I would need multiple hours of study and airborne practice.
On my one SR-22 flight, I found myself often sneaking glances at the steam gauges below the display!
When I take a power pilot for their first glider ride in my club's DG-1000 (20 m span), I get them to try a medium turn, using ailerons only. They are often very surprised by the 30º yaw in the opposite direction!
I've flown an SR-22 and I found it quite easy to fly - perhaps that's because of my glider background. I felt I would be comfortable flying it after another hour or two of slow-flying and circuits. The electronic systems were a whole different matter. I figured I would need multiple hours of study and airborne practice.
On my one SR-22 flight, I found myself often sneaking glances at the steam gauges below the display!
Same exact reaction, was not comfortable with the Garmin glass cockpit at first, would have taken some delving into, and was confused by the airspeed and altimeter bands scrolling up and down.
Gave a glance to those emergency clock gages below and finally was able to fly straight and level again; It's so much easier to glance at a needle position than to pinpoint scrolling numbers. Glass cockpit aircraft are often coupled to autopilots, they are not meant to be flown for hours manually, which would be tiring.
Plus the side stick feels strange, though aircraft flies nicely and is very reactive with only 2 fingers gently holding it.
Needs gentle precise inputs, pure joy. Perhaps it's too sensitive and unforgiving for those not used to it. Just a matter of training, It's a high performance aircraft and needs to be treated as such
After a lifetime of Military and Commercial flying I have returned to GA and enjoy flying aircraft with as little technology as possible. That being said, I have flown a SR22 and it is a delight to fly but would I want one…no. It is a complicated aircraft for its size and requires first class training.
Once the pilot has allowed the nose to pitch up, to an extent that he has lost sight of his reference spot on the horizon. He has lost his pitch attitude reference, and his Heading and Yaw information. Both of these are required to avoid entering a Spin situation. So if you can't stop the nose moving up and obscuring your horizon. You need to rethink how quickly you bang the throttle open.
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After a lifetime of Military and Commercial flying I have returned to GA and enjoy flying aircraft with as little technology as possible. That being said, I have flown a SR22 and it is a delight to fly but would I want one…no. It is a complicated aircraft for its size and requires first class training.
1. Everyone buying a Cirrus, whether new or used, can get free transition training funded by the Cirrus Embark programme
2. There is a widespread network of CSIP (Cirrus Standardised Instructor Programme) instructors
3. The Cirrus Owners and Pilots Association (COPA) holds weekend training events (CPPP or Cirrus Pilots Proficiency Programme) which cover all aspects of the aircraft, including flights with an instructor and sim training. They also offer a Partner in Command course which teaches non pilot passengers how to deal with.a pilot incapacitation emergency.
