Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Accidents and Close Calls
Reload this Page >

KAPF - Naples Florida - Challenger crash on highway

Accidents and Close Calls Discussion on accidents, close calls, and other unplanned aviation events, so we can learn from them, and be better pilots ourselves.

KAPF - Naples Florida - Challenger crash on highway

Old 14th Feb 2024, 03:08
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: GA, USA
Posts: 3,206
Likes: 0
Received 23 Likes on 10 Posts
In hindsight the canal was the least obstructed choice
Originally Posted by RatherBeFlying
Google Maps coupled with 20/20 hindsight shows a number of lagoons in the area, two quite sizable to the NE & SW of the I-74 interchange to the North of the crash location, that may have been reachable.
Blessed are children and the ignorant.
I donít think either of you have the faintest idea what an utterly stupid suggestion youíve made.

B2N2 is offline  
Old 14th Feb 2024, 05:50
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,558
Received 38 Likes on 17 Posts
Originally Posted by B2N2
Blessed are children and the ignorant.
I donít think either of you have the faintest idea what an utterly stupid suggestion youíve made.
I eagerly await enlightenment from your knowledgeable explanation.
RatherBeFlying is offline  
Old 14th Feb 2024, 07:11
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Outer London
Age: 43
Posts: 604
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by RatherBeFlying
I eagerly await enlightenment from your knowledgeable explanation.
In that part of the world youíll be an alligatorís lunch
AirportPlanner1 is online now  
Old 15th Feb 2024, 01:23
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
Posts: 5,934
Received 392 Likes on 207 Posts
In that part of the world you’ll be an alligator’s lunch
Ain't that the truth, had one living outside the sim centre at the Sikorsky plant WPB awaiting any errant pilot.
megan is online now  
Old 15th Feb 2024, 02:30
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Poplar Grove, IL, USA
Posts: 1,092
Received 77 Likes on 55 Posts
Originally Posted by megan
Ain't that the truth, had one living outside the sim centre at the Sikorsky plant WPB awaiting any errant pilot.
We had an incident with the Cypher UAV some years ago at the Sikorsky WPB plant and it ended up in the canal. Scared off the gators for a bit, which was good as we had to pull the thing out.

I suspect the Challenger would have made a bigger splash.
IFMU is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2024, 03:10
  #66 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Here, there, and everywhere
Posts: 1,122
Likes: 0
Received 12 Likes on 7 Posts
I used to do freshwater scuba diving in Florida when I would go down for sim training(plus one manatee encounter swim). I dived at several springs and a river where there actually was an alligator on the riverbank that we passed in the boat. I think the alligator attack thing is overblown. Yes, there are attacks but compared to the number of scuba dives/swims, the proportion of incidents is small. In other words, if you ditched your aircraft in the water and survived the crash, you would likely survive the possibility of an alligator attack. Bottom line, considering a ditching is not a stupid suggestion. Therefore, to decide not to ditch and choose a much riskier option would be foolish.

I guess many people have this idea of a human touching the water and multiple crocs immediately starting to swim over like a James Bond movie. Perhaps similar to many people automatically thinking of a crash when they think of an airliner.

For reference....."There were 401 unprovoked alligator attacks on humans in Florida between 1948 and 2021. Out of these 401 incidents, 25 led to fatal attacks. Most Florida alligator attacks occur near fresh water sources like lakes, ponds, and rivers. Florida witnesses an average of 7 unprovoked alligator attacks on humans per year".

7 attacks on probably millions of people going for a swim/scuba dive.




Last edited by punkalouver; 15th Feb 2024 at 15:14.
punkalouver is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2024, 06:19
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: EDLB
Posts: 362
Received 4 Likes on 3 Posts
From the video it looks that the PF planned to make it over the wall of the interstate, but found in the last seconds, that he could not make it and had to correct the glide path. Unfortunately he crashed with still some lateral energy into the wall. A forced landing from base leg without power and without enough energy to make it over densely populated ares is every pilots nightmare.
There are most times no good options. Here they had about 60 seconds. You run your memory items and at the same time look for some spot which promises survival.

In the safe armchair it is easy to claim why they did not do this and that.
EDLB is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2024, 13:04
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Question for current 604 drivers - would you expect to see the ADG out in this scenario? The video is blurry but I canít see the ADG. My experience is limited to the 601 and Globals, but in both of those the ADG or Rat would deploy immediately following double engine failure. I am guessing that in the 604 the apu generator is brought online in a standby mode when the APU is running and in this case automatically takes the electrical load when the engine driven gens drop off, preventing the ADG from deploying?
rippey is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2024, 13:18
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: NY - USA
Age: 68
Posts: 71
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by rippey
Question for current 604 drivers - would you expect to see the ADG out in this scenario? The video is blurry but I canít see the ADG. My experience is limited to the 601 and Globals, but in both of those the ADG or Rat would deploy immediately following double engine failure. I am guessing that in the 604 the apu generator is brought online in a standby mode when the APU is running and in this case automatically takes the electrical load when the engine driven gens drop off, preventing the ADG from deploying?
That is likely. SOP for a Challenger is to start the APU during descent (usually below 10,000 feet), and transfer the bleed air for the packs from the engine 10th stage to the APU bleed air. The APU generator would remain in standby, but would come online immediately if both engine generators failed.
JRBarrett is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2024, 15:55
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Maryland USA
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by punkalouver
I used to do freshwater scuba diving in Florida when I would go down for sim training(plus one manatee encounter swim). I dived at several springs and a river where there actually was an alligator on the riverbank that we passed in the boat. I think the alligator attack thing is overblown. Yes, there are attacks but compared to the number of scuba dives/swims, the proportion of incidents is small. In other words, if you ditched your aircraft in the water and survived the crash, you would likely survive the possibility of an alligator attack. Bottom line, considering a ditching is not a stupid suggestion. Therefore, to decide not to ditch and choose a much riskier option would be foolish.

I guess many people have this idea of a human touching the water and multiple crocs immediately starting to swim over like a James Bond movie. Perhaps similar to many people automatically thinking of a crash when they think of an airliner.

For reference....."There were 401 unprovoked alligator attacks on humans in Florida between 1948 and 2021. Out of these 401 incidents, 25 led to fatal attacks. Most Florida alligator attacks occur near fresh water sources like lakes, ponds, and rivers. Florida witnesses an average of 7 unprovoked alligator attacks on humans per year".

7 attacks on probably millions of people going for a swim/scuba dive.



(29) LIVE AND LET DIE | Crocodile Farm - YouTube
I went to flight school in Florida. I never even thought about alligators as a factor for emergency landings. I did managed to get chased by one once, I swam across a river and it followed me the whole way.Obviously it could have caught me anytime it wanted to. They are not crocodiles and are not nearly as nasty. There are Florida crocs, but they are quite rare.
In fairness to the pilots, it isn't like they had time to study Google Earth.

Last edited by island_airphoto; 15th Feb 2024 at 17:04.
island_airphoto is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2024, 16:21
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: EHEH
Posts: 526
Received 239 Likes on 76 Posts
I do wish the the armchair pilots would just stay quiet about what they could have done. I'm personally convinced that they did what they could under the circumstances they found themselves in, with the intention of trying to save their passengers (which they did) and themselves (which unfortunately they didn't). They had precious SECONDS to make a decision while some of you "experts" pontificate for hours in your armchairs about what they should have done! It's an absolute disgrace. Oh, by the way, I am not a pilot!
FUMR is online now  
Old 15th Feb 2024, 16:46
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: CYUL
Posts: 880
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by rippey
Question for current 604 drivers - would you expect to see the ADG out in this scenario? The video is blurry but I can’t see the ADG. My experience is limited to the 601 and Globals, but in both of those the ADG or Rat would deploy immediately following double engine failure. I am guessing that in the 604 the apu generator is brought online in a standby mode when the APU is running and in this case automatically takes the electrical load when the engine driven gens drop off, preventing the ADG from deploying?
601/604/605 and 650 work the same way… if the APU was running it’s generator would be on standby and stay in that mode even with a dual engine failure.

The ADG should deploy automatically and provide limited electrical power but if you want the APU’s generator to take over and feed the electrical power, you need to select a switch that will change the power source.
Jet Jockey A4 is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2024, 17:33
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Jet Jockey A4
601/604/605 and 650 work the same wayÖ if the APU was running itís generator would be on standby and stay in that mode even with a dual engine failure.

The ADG should deploy automatically and provide limited electrical power but if you want the APUís generator to take over and feed the electrical power, you need to select a switch that will change the power source.
Thanks for the clarification, itís been a minute since Iíve flown a challenger - and that was a 601 which if I recall had a limitation that the APU gen could not be used in flight unless both engine gens had failed - so even after we started the APU and transitioned the bleeds descending through 10 we left the APU gen switch off until after landing. That limitation may have been removed if the APU was upgraded to the -150.

rippey is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2024, 18:06
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,558
Received 38 Likes on 17 Posts
YMMV

RatherBeFlying is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2024, 18:59
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: GA, USA
Posts: 3,206
Likes: 0
Received 23 Likes on 10 Posts
Originally Posted by RatherBeFlying
I eagerly await enlightenment from your knowledgeable explanation.
That canal is along Collier boulevard and has many bridges to residential neighborhoods East of there.
Even if youíd manage to avoid the bridges itís not wide enough to accommodate a Challenger meaning the wings would be ripped off and the fuselage likely ending submerged or even worse inverted and submerged.
None of the man made lakes there are big enough for a successful ditching and mostly surrounded by homes and other obstacles.
Best option would likely have been the center median but it looks from the video they didnít have enough time to maneuver.
There is also an overpass maybe half a mile from the crash site.
B2N2 is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2024, 23:21
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,558
Received 38 Likes on 17 Posts
SW of the I-75 interchange North of the crash site is a rectangular pond some 700 metres or Ĺ mile long by 150m wide:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/94AUrvacQ7QYkx4t7

There are a few aerators that are likely more flexible than the barrier wall. And reduced fire hazard.

As for the median, it slopes to the central drainage ditch such that the wings might touch before the gear. In addition there is a 3-wire barrier likely designed to prevent semis from crossing the median.
​​​​​​

Last edited by RatherBeFlying; 16th Feb 2024 at 01:50.
RatherBeFlying is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2024, 13:40
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: GA, USA
Posts: 3,206
Likes: 0
Received 23 Likes on 10 Posts
Originally Posted by RatherBeFlying
SW of the I-75 interchange North of the crash site is a rectangular pond some 700 metres or Ĺ mile long by 150m wide:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/94AUrvacQ7QYkx4t7

There are a few aerators that are likely more flexible than the barrier wall. And reduced fire hazard.

As for the median, it slopes to the central drainage ditch such that the wings might touch before the gear. In addition there is a 3-wire barrier likely designed to prevent semis from crossing the median.
​​​​​​
The pond you refer to is well to the North of the impact site and the cable barriers are waist high and intended to stop/deflect personal vehicles and light trucks, not full size semiís.



http://www.swfltim.org/Document%20Ar...esentation.pdf
B2N2 is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2024, 15:46
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Switzerland
Age: 55
Posts: 386
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
When I saw all the traffic on the highway, and the plane's wingtip hitting the wall on the side of the road, I started wondering if the grass median in the middle of the lanes would not have been the better option.. thoughts?
FlyMD is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2024, 16:36
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Co. Down
Age: 82
Posts: 832
Received 241 Likes on 75 Posts
Plenty of advice on what the crew could have done from those who may not have been in their situation. I wouldn't know how to handle a bizjet but I have a four-inch scar plus 40 stitches to demonstrate my skills following engine failure in a light single at 1000ft. Below me were small fields with stone walls to form a very effective arrester barrier. Believe me the damn thing comes down where IT wants to, not in central median, traffic lane, bridge or lake. I think the crew did a great job.
Geriaviator is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2024, 16:49
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: EHEH
Posts: 526
Received 239 Likes on 76 Posts
Originally Posted by FlyMD
When I saw all the traffic on the highway, and the plane's wingtip hitting the wall on the side of the road, I started wondering if the grass median in the middle of the lanes would not have been the better option.. thoughts?
Already been mentioned and eliminated!
FUMR is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.