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KAPF - Naples Florida - Challenger crash on highway

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KAPF - Naples Florida - Challenger crash on highway

Old 6th Mar 2024, 17:25
  #181 (permalink)  
 
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Depends what his status was in the company.. if he with his low time in type is restricted to the RHS per their 135 ops manual, then thats were he will sit and fly.. just because you are PIC rated in a 91 sense doesnt give you right to sit in the left seat for 135. In my 135 and previous EASA AOC ops, we dont allow F/Os to fly from left until more experienced, as there is no tiller in the RH so you as PIC cant do nuthin if they decide to clip a wing going in and out of crowded FBO ramps.. My experience is also many Captains feel very uncomfortable acting as PM from the Left.. with handover of controls and taking them back after landing on the roll out.
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Old 6th Mar 2024, 23:20
  #182 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by EXDAC
Several references to US "slam dunk visual" but base for this approach was about 5 NM from threshold. The FAF for RNAV 23 is 4.8 NM out.
The N605TR accident report documents Bombardierís approved circle-to-land procedure: 1.5 nm lateral from runway on downwind, 15-30 seconds past threshold (~1 nm) before beginning continuous base-to final turn. N823KDís flight path was well outside the dimensions for a circle-to-land approach; i.e., 4 nm lateral from runway, 5 nm from threshold rolling out onto final. Bit of a stretch to characterize that as slam dunk.

I occasionally see 121 jets turning inside the FAF for visual approaches at my local airport. Donít think theyíre slam dunking.
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Old 7th Mar 2024, 06:50
  #183 (permalink)  
 
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The thrust levers definitely have to be at idle before the catches are lifted to shut down the engines. If you reach the stop with them already lifted even partially the balk is still there and you cannot reduce below idle. There have been cases on other types with a similar arrangement of the balk being so worn that it didn't work, but I have never heard of it on a Challenger. Of course CRJs do many, many more sectors in their life so the possibility of a worn out mechanism is greater.
Which brings us to the video posted above. We tried to duplicate this in a 604 sim, and even intentionally could not get the geometry to lift both catches at exactly the right time. It was extremely difficult to do even one, and that required a very unusual seating position for the PM to have their arm in the position shown in the video.
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Old 7th Mar 2024, 10:56
  #184 (permalink)  
 
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Thank you for that.
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Old 7th Mar 2024, 11:43
  #185 (permalink)  
 
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Ground running an L1011, after start the throttle was moved just a little, but the engine accelerated towards T/O power; the cut off switch worked fine; RR stated it could not happen, but some months later came back with the FFR strip report that a failure had allowed full throttle internally.
I recall the cut off switches are a simple design much like you would have found in 1960 car dashboards with a sprung forward position for extra cold start fuel flow the guards were simple too, 1/2 moon type fences.
I was surprised from above B J J entry, to learn the throttles need to be retarded so achieve cut off on this Challenger, fire handles are a lot slower in my circumstances.
What need was there for these larger switch paddles on the Challenger beats me!
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Old 7th Mar 2024, 12:52
  #186 (permalink)  
 
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So to summarize: If they had actually run out of fuel, it would have been obvious on the panel and on the FDR?
Re the setting of the thrust levers: I was harassed by the FAA over a plane in a field with the fuel valves turned off. I mentioned a few times that is part of the emergency landing checklist for that airplane, got the guy to sound the 1/2 full tanks, and he went away. Would this have been intentional by the pilots on "short final" to the road?
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Old 7th Mar 2024, 14:07
  #187 (permalink)  
 
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MAIN EJECTOR PUMP FAIL (L/R), FUEL BOOST ON (L/R), FUEL BOOST FAIL (L/R), all due to no fuel pressure, ie no fuel. Where exactly the sensors are located, Iím not sure. The chances of fuel exhaustion at the exact same moment are very small, the two OIL PRESS lights came on within one second of each other.

The EICAS indications are recorded in the FDR.
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Old 8th Mar 2024, 12:56
  #188 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aeromech3
Ground running an L1011, after start the throttle was moved just a little, but the engine accelerated towards T/O power; the cut off switch worked fine; RR stated it could not happen, but some months later came back with the FFR strip report that a failure had allowed full throttle internally.
I recall the cut off switches are a simple design much like you would have found in 1960 car dashboards with a sprung forward position for extra cold start fuel flow the guards were simple too, 1/2 moon type fences.
I was surprised from above B J J entry, to learn the throttles need to be retarded so achieve cut off on this Challenger, fire handles are a lot slower in my circumstances.
What need was there for these larger switch paddles on the Challenger beats me!
My experience on small jets was older Citations...The TLs had triggers mounted such that you pulled up on the trigger to move the TL in or out of cutoff...So you had to pull the TL all the way back to the stop for shutdown...I believe the Challenger "paddles" work the same way...They're not fuel shutoff switches like the BUS or levers like Boeing...So in the event of a stuck TL the only way to shutdown would be activating fire fighting stuff...B

Last edited by 1southernman; 8th Mar 2024 at 16:41.
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Old 9th Mar 2024, 07:30
  #189 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks 1southernman, that explains a lot, most aircraft I have had the pleasure of working on, if you forgot to check the throttle levers were at idle before start, you would wonder why the idle was high .
Seems to me that Murphy's Law is the likely answer.
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Old 16th Mar 2024, 18:14
  #190 (permalink)  
 
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KPHL 2004 flying CRJ200 (CL65) - similar type. 10000 feet inbound for landing, 300 hour copilot slaps throttles back to idle. Single Engine oil pressure light illuminates as engine spools down. Declare emergency and proceed with engine restart checklist. Engine restarts and continue with normal landing and shutdown. Turns out throttle was rigged incorrectly. Missed clue that throttle had to be advanced slightly forward of idle stop to get a light off during startup. FCU did not meter enough fuel to maintain idle when throttles were moved abruptly back to the stop. Dual engine failure would be challenging at low altitude - took almost 30 seconds for restart on one engine. Note - Philly ATC put us back in line when we notified them of engine restart.
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Old 19th Mar 2024, 02:49
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Originally Posted by JCWeisz
KPHL 2004 flying CRJ200 (CL65) - similar type. 10000 feet inbound for landing, 300 hour copilot slaps throttles back to idle. Single Engine oil pressure light illuminates as engine spools down. Declare emergency and proceed with engine restart checklist. Engine restarts and continue with normal landing and shutdown. Turns out throttle was rigged incorrectly. Missed clue that throttle had to be advanced slightly forward of idle stop to get a light off during startup. FCU did not meter enough fuel to maintain idle when throttles were moved abruptly back to the stop. Dual engine failure would be challenging at low altitude - took almost 30 seconds for restart on one engine. Note - Philly ATC put us back in line when we notified them of engine restart.
this is correct and crjís. Have alot more cycles. There was a problem with the mechanism being worn and a service bulletin being issued. Unlikely in this case.
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Old 19th Mar 2024, 02:53
  #192 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
See post on EICAS messages that would post if there was fuel exhaustion. Which is what my manual confirms. I havenít flown the 605 is years, so went thru it and there would be at least six messages in addition to OIL PRESS LO. If you have a hard-on for 135 Florida ops, fair enough, but stick with facts.

Despite what you think, unusable fuel in a 604 would not be near enough to produce a fire capable of destroying the entire airframe. Theres only a couple dozen gallons at most.
you are correct. A yellow caution would have occurred along time ago. But you must also know that with two engines shutdown a whole list of very confusing eicas messages would also occur. Was there any mention of the other messages(a full screen). No as the ntsb is witholding it.
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Old 19th Mar 2024, 03:06
  #193 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BizJetJock
The thrust levers definitely have to be at idle before the catches are lifted to shut down the engines. If you reach the stop with them already lifted even partially the balk is still there and you cannot reduce below idle. There have been cases on other types with a similar arrangement of the balk being so worn that it didn't work, but I have never heard of it on a Challenger. Of course CRJs do many, many more sectors in their life so the possibility of a worn out mechanism is greater.
Which brings us to the video posted above. We tried to duplicate this in a 604 sim, and even intentionally could not get the geometry to lift both catches at exactly the right time. It was extremely difficult to do even one, and that required a very unusual seating position for the PM to have their arm in the position shown in the video.
that has been my experience as well. As a 121 captain i had this happen many times, never shutting even 1 engine down. You need to go to idle stop, lift the levers quite a bit, then go to stop. The youtube video shows a very unrealistic scenario. Go to idle. Lift levers and then go to cutoff. However anything is possible, it is a logical explanation and would solve alot of problems, but is not without problems of its own. How hard is it to do. Would you immediately advance to idle cutoff and punch ignitor a/b? I would. Would it restart? I dont know. I guess we will have to wait and see. If no low fuel messages, and no fuel contamination it seems logical. I still say not enough fire. Plus jet a you can throw a match in a 5 gallon bucket and it will
go out. The only thing that makes it explode is being mixed with air and compressed. However that would happen with 200 gallons left, just alot more fire.
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Old 19th Mar 2024, 15:58
  #194 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by resetjet
you are correct. A yellow caution would have occurred along time ago. But you must also know that with two engines shutdown a whole list of very confusing eicas messages would also occur. Was there any mention of the other messages(a full screen). No as the ntsb is witholding it.
Why would the NTSB withhold it?
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Old 19th Mar 2024, 16:28
  #195 (permalink)  
 
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They never say every message. It would appear from their initial report that fuel starvation has been ruled out, as there was no mention of lack of fire, low fuel warnings, etcÖ. so thats one answer. The cutoff is the most likely cause, but having so many flights in the left seat reaching around to grab the flaps, i just cant see it. But its all impossible until it isnt. The big problem i have is both engines being starved of fuel(for whatever reason) at the same time. Both cutoff is consistent with this. I guess we will find out in a year and a half when the docket is published.
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Old 20th Mar 2024, 03:10
  #196 (permalink)  
 
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I think your observation nearly connects the 2 dots I started out thinking. IF the collector tank was empty then no power and in that area less fire. Already commented however that tank is actually 2 individual tanks. So this theory/speculation might exceed all probabilities. In the end it is either system, pilot or a poorly designed failled part.
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