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KAPF - Naples Florida - Challenger crash on highway

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KAPF - Naples Florida - Challenger crash on highway

Old 27th Feb 2024, 13:53
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WITCHWAY550
As I see from your comments that the 604 and the 601 have the same design for the collector tank. If you know is there an associated EICAS message for low fuel in the collector tank(s)? As I know the Gulfstream 5 and 550 have such a warning. Now how would someone know which collector tank is "low"? I don't know.
According to documentation on the 605 the collector tanks are considered to be a part of their respective main tank and have no independent fuel quantity sensing, indicating, or alerting. It seems likely that the 604 is similar.

ref - https://www.smartcockpit.com/docs/CL605-FUEL_SYSTEM.pdf
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Old 27th Feb 2024, 14:59
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by EXDAC
According to documentation on the 605 the collector tanks are considered to be a part of their respective main tank and have no independent fuel quantity sensing, indicating, or alerting. It seems likely that the 604 is similar.
604 fuel system here - https://www.smartcockpit.com/docs/CL...UEL_SYSTEM.pdf
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Old 27th Feb 2024, 15:16
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by B2N2
One of the working theories that are floating around involves inadvertent activation of the fuel shut off switches.
May not be a good theory as the 604 does not appear to have fuel shut off switches that are separate from the thrust levers. I have never operated a Challenger, or even been in the cockpit, but seems hard to imagine how both thrust levers could have accidentally been pulled past the gate into Shut Off position unless both gates had failed.

ref - https://www.smartcockpit.com/docs/CL...NE_GENERAL.pdf


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Old 27th Feb 2024, 19:32
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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NTSB Aviation Investigation Preliminary Report - N823KD
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Old 27th Feb 2024, 20:16
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Thanks for posting the Preliminary Report - no mention of CVR (recovery/prelim analysis) in this report?
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Old 27th Feb 2024, 20:18
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Well the plot thickens… It seems everything so far was working normally with no fuel anomalies.

Last edited by Jet Jockey A4; 28th Feb 2024 at 05:14.
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Old 27th Feb 2024, 20:26
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jet Jockey A4
It seems everything so far was working and normal
not sure I catch your drift, looks to me this was not 'normal':
Originally Posted by prelim report
A preliminary review of the data recovered from the airplane’s flight data recorder revealed that the first of three Master Warnings was recorded at 1509:33 (L ENGINE OIL PRESSURE), the second immediately following at 1509:34 (R ENGINE OIL PRESSURE), and at 1509:40 (ENGINE). The system alerted pilots with illumination of a “Master Warning” light on the glareshield, a corresponding red message on the crew alerting system page and a triple chime voice advisory (“Engine oil”). Page 2 of 7 ERA24FA110 This information is preliminary and subject to change. Twenty seconds later, at 1510:05, about 1,000 ft msl and 122 kts, on a shallow intercept angle for the final approach course, the crew announced, “…lost both engines… emergency… making an emergency landing”

Last edited by DIBO; 27th Feb 2024 at 20:42. Reason: clarified by @josephfeatherweight
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Old 27th Feb 2024, 20:36
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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The "L ENGINE OIL PRESSURE" and "R ENGINE OIL PRESSURE" are the first messages that appear when the engines shut down - for any reason. Eg. selected off OR starved of fuel.
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Old 27th Feb 2024, 20:43
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Shutdown

Looks like a normal inflight shutdown.
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Old 27th Feb 2024, 21:12
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by josephfeatherweight
The "L ENGINE OIL PRESSURE" and "R ENGINE OIL PRESSURE" are the first messages that appear when the engines shut down - for any reason. Eg. selected off OR starved of fuel.
Not unexpected.

While the preliminary report doesn’t allow for any conclusions it certainly provides compelling information that reduces the likelihood of certain potential accident causes; e.g., fuel exhaustion, fuel starvation, fuel contamination, dual-engine bird strike.

One curious finding regarding the inadvertent engine shutdown scenario is the thrust levers being found near the idle stop position and the #1 fuel control unit being found at the idle position and the #2 forward of the idle stop.
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Old 27th Feb 2024, 22:04
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by EXDAC
May not be a good theory as the 604 does not appear to have fuel shut off switches that are separate from the thrust levers. I have never operated a Challenger, or even been in the cockpit, but seems hard to imagine how both thrust levers could have accidentally been pulled past the gate into Shut Off position unless both gates had failed.

ref - https://www.smartcockpit.com/docs/CL...NE_GENERAL.pdf




Left (white) thrust reversers switches
Middle (red) fuel cut off switches
Right (blue) flap selector

it is very much feasible to have your arm in the way either left to right or right to left when the thrust levers are pulled back.
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Old 27th Feb 2024, 22:17
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Originally Posted by EXDAC
May not be a good theory as the 604 does not appear to have fuel shut off switches that are separate from the thrust levers. I have never operated a Challenger, or even been in the cockpit, but seems hard to imagine how both thrust levers could have accidentally been pulled past the gate into Shut Off position unless both gates had failed.

ref - https://www.smartcockpit.com/docs/CL...NE_GENERAL.pdf

First of all, many small to midsize biz jets use a similar style of trigger that needs activating to get over shut off gate, so thats normal. I would say we are back in the realm of finding out if RHS pilot was PF as then the accidental catching of both triggers (that need lifting) on PM arm as he reaches around to select full flaps at same time PF comes back on throttle levers.. hey presto you can now shut both down. Next thing is frantically trying to lift back into idle position again in seconds prior to crash. (As indicated by prelim report). Also flying from the RHS is fairly normal too in bizjet world to maintain practice of flying in both seats.
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Old 28th Feb 2024, 00:24
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Did I miss it or did the report ignore they ran over a truck and nearly flattened it? I wonder about it because the truck is independently steered and could have prevented the aircraft from straightening up on the highway.
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Old 28th Feb 2024, 00:47
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BFSGrad
Not unexpected.

While the preliminary report doesn’t allow for any conclusions it certainly provides compelling information that reduces the likelihood of certain potential accident causes; e.g., fuel exhaustion, fuel starvation, fuel contamination, dual-engine bird strike.

One curious finding regarding the inadvertent engine shutdown scenario is the thrust levers being found near the idle stop position and the #1 fuel control unit being found at the idle position and the #2 forward of the idle stop.
First thing a pilot does after a gear up landing is put the gear handle down. First thing I’d do in the event of an inadvertent dual engine shutdown is put them back in idle, try a restart or catch it before it wound down.
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Old 28th Feb 2024, 00:53
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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United and Delta both had 767 inflight shutdown of both engines because of inadvertant operation of the fuel shut off switches shortly after take off, Delta at 1,600 feet, system subsequently reengineered. A repeat here as suggested?
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Old 28th Feb 2024, 01:04
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There was an incident years ago on a 757 or 767 where one of the pilots put his cellphone in the area in front of the fuel shutoff switches. When the auto-throttles commanded a thrust reduction, as the thrust levers moved backwards the cellphone was squeezed between the thrust levers and the fuel shutoff switches, and this caused the fuel cutoff switches to shutoff the fuel to both engines. Could a similar situation developed here.
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Old 28th Feb 2024, 06:05
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Originally Posted by Chiefttp
There was an incident years ago on a 757 or 767 where one of the pilots put his cellphone in the area in front of the fuel shutoff switches. When the auto-throttles commanded a thrust reduction, as the thrust levers moved backwards the cellphone was squeezed between the thrust levers and the fuel shutoff switches, and this caused the fuel cutoff switches to shutoff the fuel to both engines. Could a similar situation developed here.
No, because the CL does not have cutoff switches of that nature. They are on TLs.. see pic


RHS dude looks out of sidewindow back at runway for typical US style visual slamdunk, asks for full flaps at same time retarding levers to idle to get speed change under way asap… also Challengers have crap autothrottles (if installed!!) so really only good as cruise controls as too slow for rapid changes for visual maneuvering
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Old 28th Feb 2024, 08:08
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also Challengers have crap autothrottles (if installed!!)
​​​​​​​Absolutely correct.
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Old 28th Feb 2024, 16:09
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Originally Posted by MechEngr
Did I miss it or did the report ignore they ran over a truck and nearly flattened it? I wonder about it because the truck is independently steered and could have prevented the aircraft from straightening up on the highway.
Very doubtful the truck driver ever saw the aircraft before it hit them.
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Old 28th Feb 2024, 16:23
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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Thumbs up Cabin Attendant Saved Three Lives

After the airplane came to rest, the cabin attendant stated that she identified that the cabin and emergency exits were blocked by fire and coordinated the successful egress of her passengers and herself through the baggage compartment door in the tail section of the airplane.
Kudos to cabin attendant and designers who put in the extra door.
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