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KAPF - Naples Florida - Challenger crash on highway

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KAPF - Naples Florida - Challenger crash on highway

Old 9th Feb 2024, 20:13
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KAPF - Naples Florida - Challenger crash on highway

Reports of a Challenger radioing in while on approach saying both engines quit and could not make it. Crash landed on highway, hitting vehicles and/or wall and erupting in to a large fireball.

Video from pilot of plane that was next to land. Video Post

Video from car driving by Safety Network info page Link
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Old 9th Feb 2024, 21:10
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Unverified reports say, 5 on board, three survivors.

https://www.flightaware.com/live/fli...730Z/KOSU/KAPF

https://winknews.com/2024/02/09/plan...ollier-county/
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Old 9th Feb 2024, 22:36
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Rough transcript from LiveATC. Non-accident aircraft comms not included.

HJ823: Hop-a-jet 823 is with you on a right downwind for a 5-mile final ah runway 23

KAPF: Hop-a-jet 823, roger, make a right turn back toward the airport, [?] departure ahead Challenger jet, runway 23 cleared to land, wind 220 at 12, gust 16

HJ823: Alright, Challenger jet departing, we’re turning back towards the airport and cleared to land runway 23, Hop-a-jet 823

HJ823: OK, ah, Challenger, ah Hop-a-jet 823, lost both engines, emergency, making an emergency landing

KAPF: [?] got that emergency, cleared to land runway 23, is that Hop-a-jet 823?

HJ823: We’re cleared to land but we’re not going to make the runway, we’ve lost both engines.

Last edited by BFSGrad; 9th Feb 2024 at 23:28.
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Old 10th Feb 2024, 02:00
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Over 2,000 fpm descent half way through the base to final turn. The fire seems to indicate this was not fuel exhaustion.



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Old 10th Feb 2024, 02:33
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What the heck other than bad fuel or no fuel takes out both engines at the same time?
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Old 10th Feb 2024, 02:43
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Originally Posted by island_airphoto
What the heck other than bad fuel or no fuel takes out both engines at the same time?
short of switching it off, not a lot
Where did it top up fuel last
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Old 10th Feb 2024, 03:09
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Video of survivors evacuating the aircraft
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Old 10th Feb 2024, 04:45
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Originally Posted by island_airphoto
What the heck other than bad fuel or no fuel takes out both engines at the same time?
Birds perhaps. Not suggesting that was the cause, just a possibility.
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Old 10th Feb 2024, 05:41
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Originally Posted by island_airphoto
What the heck other than bad fuel or no fuel takes out both engines at the same time?
Looking at the airplane's pneumatic diagram, one way the engines are tied together is through the 10'th stage bleed manifold, but there is a check valve that should isolate them. A bad 10th stage bleed check valve could cause a compressor stall and engine flameout at low power settings when you start the APU, which could account for an engine failure in this phase of flight. Having 2 check valves on 2 different engines fail on the same flight? That seems extraordinary unlikely. It was a quick turnaround at OSU so they would not have had time to do any maintenance, so a common mode maintenance failure seems unlikely.

A similar issue (corroded 5'th stage check valve sticking open due to extended duration storage) was causing multiple in-flight engine shutdowns at top of descent on the 737NG after bunches of them were poorly stored at the beginning of COVID. It is complete pure luck that there were no dual engine flameouts. https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...pany-airplanes
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Old 10th Feb 2024, 05:58
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Nah… quick quick turn in Columbus, respectfully I would seriously look at their fuel numbers for an out and back.
(12 years on 604/605 myself)

edit to add, I dont want to read too much into the flames.. remember there is always an amount of unusable fuel that remains so hard to say at this point

Last edited by 605carsten; 10th Feb 2024 at 07:15.
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Old 10th Feb 2024, 06:04
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Originally Posted by slacktide
Looking at the airplane's pneumatic diagram, one way the engines are tied together is through the 10'th stage bleed manifold, but there is a check valve that should isolate them. A bad 10th stage bleed check valve could cause a compressor stall and engine flameout at low power settings when you start the APU, which could account for an engine failure in this phase of flight. Having 2 check valves on 2 different engines fail on the same flight? That seems extraordinary unlikely. It was a quick turnaround at OSU so they would not have had time to do any maintenance, so a common mode maintenance failure seems unlikely.

A similar issue (corroded 5'th stage check valve sticking open due to extended duration storage) was causing multiple in-flight engine shutdowns at top of descent on the 737NG after bunches of them were poorly stored at the beginning of COVID. It is complete pure luck that there were no dual engine flameouts. https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...pany-airplanes
no, you dont transition the bleeds(its manually done in the 604/5) until APU is up and running and also switching 10ths off is approved for ops if you have no APU (limitation of pulling two bleed sources at same time off engine) if you want to use Anti-ice for takeoff or landing

Last edited by 605carsten; 10th Feb 2024 at 07:13.
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Old 10th Feb 2024, 07:52
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Surprising to see that cars just pass the burning aircraft without stopping to offer help.
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Old 10th Feb 2024, 09:28
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Glad to see at least one of the pax managed to escape with her hand luggage !!!

El G.
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Old 10th Feb 2024, 09:45
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And via the baggage hold door non the less.. only option really on that side considering the angle and flames
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Old 10th Feb 2024, 09:46
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Originally Posted by Sikorsky
Surprising to see that cars just pass the burning aircraft without stopping to offer help.
Priorities. Gotta go DTO nearest lawyerís office and commence suing the crew for the emotional distress.
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Old 10th Feb 2024, 09:50
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Originally Posted by 605carsten
no, you dont transition the bleeds(its manually done in the 604/5) until APU is up and running and also switching 10ths off is approved for ops if you have no APU (limitation of pulling two bleed sources at same time off engine) if you want to use Anti-ice for takeoff or landing
Genuine Q - (generally speaking) are the fuel cut off switches protected by anything or just toggle switches? From prior experience - Hard to judge off Google images incase specific aircraft have had mods / STCs etc.
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Old 10th Feb 2024, 10:00
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No toggle switches like the Global.. they are simply triggers on the back of the thrust levers that need to be pulled to go to cutoff.. hmm so you are thinking like that Falcon20 crew many years ago with worn latches and flamed both out when going back to idle?
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Old 10th Feb 2024, 10:04
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Originally Posted by El Grifo
Glad to see at least one of the pax managed to escape with her hand luggage !!!

El G.
Firstly, it's not an airliner with hundreds of passengers. Secondly there's no emergency slide involved. Thirdly on a private jet an item of hand luggage may well have been within easy reach. Natural human reaction to try and save your worldly goods, especially if they are right next to you. I saw nothing in that clip that would have impeded their escape. I'll now get flamed but I honestly think this is a slightly different scenario to a full airliner and it's human instinct. No cabin crew screaming at you to leave everything and get the heck out.
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Old 10th Feb 2024, 10:06
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DEF?
https://www.ntsb.gov/advocacy/safety...nts/SA-079.pdf


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Old 10th Feb 2024, 10:11
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Originally Posted by 605carsten
No toggle switches like the Global.. they are simply triggers on the back of the thrust levers that need to be pulled to go to cutoff.. hmm so you are thinking like that Falcon20 crew many years ago with worn latches and flamed both out when going back to idle?
Yeah I guess.. Iím not saying it happened, but I am wondering whether aircraft design would allow that to be a possibility.
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