AF447
I then asked him if he could explain Alternate Law 2a.... "never heard of it"...hmmmm
Originally Posted by Boeingdriver999 View Post
Am I the only person that is embarrassed by this thread?
Am I the only person that is embarrassed by this thread?
Yes - perfectly, thank you.
You might have noticed that within the quote, the horizontal and vertical components were clearly quantified. Just as MechEngr patiently explained for you, just after you asked the question. So there you have it, at least 2 highly qualified professional Engineers (and probably many more) who clearly understand scalar speeds and vector velocities.
Now my question… Do you know anything useful at all? Or are you best to stop, shut up, and stop quipping, in your efforts to discredit everything that doesn't fit your pathetically narrow viewpoint? The more you bleat on, the less smart you're coming across.
You might have noticed that within the quote, the horizontal and vertical components were clearly quantified. Just as MechEngr patiently explained for you, just after you asked the question. So there you have it, at least 2 highly qualified professional Engineers (and probably many more) who clearly understand scalar speeds and vector velocities.
Now my question… Do you know anything useful at all? Or are you best to stop, shut up, and stop quipping, in your efforts to discredit everything that doesn't fit your pathetically narrow viewpoint? The more you bleat on, the less smart you're coming across.
Thread Starter
Sneaking a peak is not something that would occur to the PM. Why would he? I’ve had weird things happen, and I’ve never thought to look at the sidestick. Furthermore, depending on the lighting setup, the PM may not have been able to see the other sidestick, even if he tried to look over. If the 330 is similar to the 320, the CA (from the Jumpseat) would not have been able to see the sidestick either. Design flaw? Lastly, one can hardly blame Airbus for making 60kt the stall warning cutoff. How could someone foresee a situation where an airplane of that size would be in the air at that speed? I’m willing to bet that that feat has not been replicated.
ad. PF may have had his tray table out, there's that
Last edited by Concours77; 26th Mar 2023 at 17:34.
Thread Starter
From DAR
QuoteOriginally Posted by Pilot DAR "I have never flown a jet. I have trained many pilots who have moved back GA airplanes from having flown jets. The more I have done this training, the more I have learned to watch out for pilots who have unproven confidence in their piloting skills in types with much less performance than they are used to. Just because it's small, does not mean it flies like thebig/powerful/automated planes they were used to.
. I Started flying in 1971. In the Cessna 150. On the second lesson we did Stalls. The third, Spins, (which used to be a requirement for PPL).... The fourth, unrecovered Stall into a Spin. Instructor flew us to 7000 feet. Power on, pulled the yoke. Right at Stall, he kept pulling, then additional pull. Nose up, Stalled, Horn very loud. Yoke well back. Sinking quickly, shaking, extremely disconcerting. He then pushed the yoke forward. Then came the Spin. Debrief, I asked how long the a/c could be held in a Stall, Nose Up? "All the way down..Just cuz it's big, doesn't mean it won't behave like a little one?? Did 447 PF have the same instructor I did? Did he try putting the Nose Down to break the Stall, and was put off by the Aircraft wanting to Spin? He learned in gliders? Had he ever Stalled a 330? Doubts...I think that may be why why he kept the a/c in mush... "But we have the engines. ..." Hoping those big motors would save the day?
. I Started flying in 1971. In the Cessna 150. On the second lesson we did Stalls. The third, Spins, (which used to be a requirement for PPL).... The fourth, unrecovered Stall into a Spin. Instructor flew us to 7000 feet. Power on, pulled the yoke. Right at Stall, he kept pulling, then additional pull. Nose up, Stalled, Horn very loud. Yoke well back. Sinking quickly, shaking, extremely disconcerting. He then pushed the yoke forward. Then came the Spin. Debrief, I asked how long the a/c could be held in a Stall, Nose Up? "All the way down..Just cuz it's big, doesn't mean it won't behave like a little one?? Did 447 PF have the same instructor I did? Did he try putting the Nose Down to break the Stall, and was put off by the Aircraft wanting to Spin? He learned in gliders? Had he ever Stalled a 330? Doubts...I think that may be why why he kept the a/c in mush... "But we have the engines. ..." Hoping those big motors would save the day?
Last edited by Concours77; 26th Mar 2023 at 20:27.
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Thread Starter
STEAL MY AOA, KILL US ALL
Thread Starter
A330...
So...PITCH AND POWER. WHY PITCH? When the AP quit, the Nose was low, so was the a/c... Wasn't there an OVERSPEED WARN?THE STALLWARN WAS SPURIOUS. Overspeed was legit. Correct both with NU?Well, yes, but too much?. There was STALLWARN. Based on a disagreement among ADIRUS
.Help me out here, Vessbot
.Help me out here, Vessbot
So...PITCH AND POWER. WHY PITCH? When the AP quit, the Nose was low, so was the a/c... Wasn't there an OVERSPEED WARN?THE STALLWARN WAS SPURIOUS. Overspeed was legit. Correct both with NU?Well, yes, but too much?. There was STALLWARN. Based on a disagreement among ADIRUS
.Help me out here, Vessbot
.Help me out here, Vessbot
the overspeed was.... "legit"???
which accident are you referring to? Is this an A330 with Thales Pitot static that iced up in extreme icing that defeated the thermal capability of the system and gave spurious KCAS? or some other event where the occupant of a plane held full back stick one his SSC till splashdown?
Thread Starter
Static???
the overspeed was.... "legit"??? which accident are you referring to? Is this an A330 with Thales Pitot static that iced up in extreme icing that defeated the thermal capability of the system and gave spurious KCAS? or some other event where the occupant of a plane held full back stick one his SSC till splashdown?
Thread Starter
fdr... I have offered a possible reason why the PF "pulled continuously..." I trained that fifty years ago. In a C150. Instructor set up a stick back Stalled nose high mush. Pushing forward on the yoke created an immediate spin.... Was Bonin unwilling to push fully forward? Had he tried, and gotten an immediate spin entry? Which he RECOVERED with more NU? I think he KNEW the plane was Stalled, but ND was terrifying.... On the DFDR I would be looking for a forward transit of RHS stick, followed by a ROLL/YAW Couple... Thanks, much respect
Last edited by Concours77; 26th Mar 2023 at 22:39.
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fdr... I have offered a possible reason why the PF "pulled continuously..." I trained that fifty years ago. In a C150. Instructor set up a stick back Stalled nose high mush. Pushing forward on the yoke created an immediate spin.... Was Bonin unwilling to push fully forward? Had he tried, and gotten an immediate spin entry? Which he RECOVERED with more NU? I think he KNEW the plane was Stalled, but ND was terrifying.... On the DFDR I would be looking for a forward transit of RHS stick, followed by a ROLL/YAW Couple... Thanks, much respect
You’re patently out of your depth. The only similarity to your Cessna experience is that both aircraft stalled. The crew had erroneous information. And failed to revert to basics to recover. Repeatedly. Until the situation was irrecoverable, which, the Captain eventually realized but was in no position to do anything about it. Either through a lack of training, or command gradient hence inadequate CRM, and a design shortfall. To add to the confusion the stall warning kept disappearing and reappearing as they burbled in and out of stall with half arsed recoveries and in addition Les Wombles at AIB didn’t think anyone would achieve those sort of speeds over a prolonged period and removed the nuisance component of the warning. To further compound the issue the weather was appalling and entirely conducive to this sort of icing. The upshot was redevelopment of the ADC’s/ air data heating and repeated exposure for all pilots, be it Team A or Team B, to these sort of UAS events in the simulator. And a review of the inherent culture at the company concerned.
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The pilots in front when the speed disappeared and AP tripped had no proper understanding of alternate law and of course no clue to unreliable speed procedure. In alternate2 law flight path is maintained. Only wings level were required to be ensured. When you are caught in a situation to which you have no clue then the fear factor can come in and then action taken have no logic or rationale. Pilot was thinking of climbing all the time before it happened so that was in his subconscious and unreliable airspeed after takeoff has TOGA 15. So the bizarre actions appear to be combination of the two. Stall warning comes from AoA not speed but AoA probe is an aerofoil which requires certain dynamic pressure to stay afloat to measure and below certain speed 60kts in this case it may have just flopped was unable to register anything and was taken as non computed Data and rejected for stall warning. It may not have been designed so but it may be functional reality of the system. Has the crew just held the status quo for a minute the accident wouldn't have happened because the speed came back but by then they had put the aircraft in a region where not even test pilots go.
Anyway it's too late to discuss unreliable speed as Airbus now has mathematically calculated airspeed which they call it digital back up speed. This doesn't require any anemometric input. This supervises the ADR calculations and in case of all ADRs going rogues their speed indications are replaced by the Digital Backup Speed. A350 does it automatically A320 does it through ECAM actions.
Anyway it's too late to discuss unreliable speed as Airbus now has mathematically calculated airspeed which they call it digital back up speed. This doesn't require any anemometric input. This supervises the ADR calculations and in case of all ADRs going rogues their speed indications are replaced by the Digital Backup Speed. A350 does it automatically A320 does it through ECAM actions.
Last edited by vilas; 27th Mar 2023 at 09:32.
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Does anybody reading this have a strong phobia? It can make one do irrational things. It can be overwhelmingly powerful yet rarely encountered. Example: person with a strong phobia of snakes is walking down the sidewalk of a busy street and suddenly has a close encounter with a snake. They suddenly turn and run and are hit by a car while darting toward what must be a safer place……… the street. People wonder why would anybody run in that direction. Because the lizard brain took over completely and logic disappeared. There was an overwhelming desire to suddenly be anywhere but near the snake. If you don’t have a phobia like this, you may not be able to understand the feeling one gets from it.
A dash-8 pilot flying into Buffalo encounters an artificial stall warning well above the stall speed because of a misconfigured stall warning system. He is on final approach and relatively close to the ground. Inexplicably, he pulls the control column full aft and holds it there until an actual stall occurs. Why would someone ever have such a reaction? It doesn’t make sense. But perhaps the lizard brain has taken over and it doesn’t want to hit the ground by lowering the nose. These sorts of reactions vary.
While the bad reaction of the dash-8 pilot may not be due to a specific phobia, I suspect that it originates from the same of the instinctive survival area of the brain. Phobia reactions can vary from overwhelming fear(snake encounter) to just extreme nervousness(speaking in front of a crowd). The first one is the brain in a life or death situation
Many of us are not fully aware of how we will react under various surprise scenarios. Sudden surprise encounter may be the the important factor.
As for one possible remedy for what happened on AF447 due to it being an Airbus……always be ready to use that takeover button. During takeoff may be a good example. One would think that the pilot not flying, especially when it is the captain, would have their thumb resting on that button as they may only be a very brief time to react…..and that may not be the best time to depend on the summing of side stick inputs.
Of course, the downside of that theory is that the person having the irrational reaction could press the takeover button. But they are acting irrationally, so they will probably forget to do so.
Last edited by punkalouver; 27th Mar 2023 at 11:44.