Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Accidents and Close Calls
Reload this Page >

NTSB to probe Fedex/Southwest close encounter at Austin

Accidents and Close Calls Discussion on accidents, close calls, and other unplanned aviation events, so we can learn from them, and be better pilots ourselves.

NTSB to probe Fedex/Southwest close encounter at Austin

Old 2nd Dec 2023, 23:56
  #481 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: same planet as yours
Posts: 515
Received 6 Likes on 5 Posts
Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
Not only depressing but very scary too.. I did not realized it went down the drain that bad.
C'mon now, it's not all that bad for a 4th world country!
Ooh.... wait a minute
DIBO is online now  
Old 3rd Dec 2023, 00:18
  #482 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: same planet as yours
Posts: 515
Received 6 Likes on 5 Posts
Originally Posted by Request Orbit
The final interview from the Met observer certainly doesnít instil any faith that the FAA will sort it out.
Well I think 'final interview' might prove to be taken literally, for me it doesnít instil any faith that he will still have his job in six months time....Those overpaid seatfilling powerpoint managers at FAA & NWS can't have this absolute shambles being made public...
Feel sorry for those MET guys, been treated like ****
DIBO is online now  
Old 3rd Dec 2023, 09:35
  #483 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 84
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Agree, sounds like they’ve been trying to constructively dismiss them for a while. $$$
Request Orbit is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2023, 11:21
  #484 (permalink)  
Pegase Driver
 
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 73
Posts: 3,650
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Just finished the interviews parts.


Il start with the MET guy as we are re discussing it, Appalling what those guys have to go though . “ we’re just babysitting a computer” , stuck in an old smoking room with no windows, no internet access, had to buy on Amazon broken equipment themselves , told by FAA no to bother with 17 degr temp discrepancies,: " just read the machine of you get fired “ . no contact with ATC , took they access badges away and to come up the TWR need to call on an intercom : " that is broken anyway". The whole subcontracting process to employ those guys is crazy too.

The ATC staff interviews are revealing a totally broken safety and training culture. The “suitcases simulator “part is revealing, " a piece of junk" as one said. No one seems to know what SMGCS is same with CAT III . and those were experienced controllers with many years’ experiences. But it is the chronic lack of staff that is at the root of the problem, 6 days weeks for years, no time to properly train or refresh. the procedure to train for new airspace, one hour after a shift ( described page 151 ) is appalling .

Having to rely on FR24 to taxi aircraft is incredible in such a large airport in the US in 2023. I’ve seen this done in Haiti and in some poor African countries, but in the US?

The SW pilots interview is comparatively much shorter and they got very easy questions compared to the controllers. 2 different treatments here. Not nice. . They did not pursue why did both crews consider lining up with an aircraft on 3 miles final in low visibility conditions “normal” . Then “we never stopped “ said the captain , but the F/O said they put the brakes on to run to 70% so they did stop and waited. ,and when the controller asked if they were rolling, a minute after the T/O clearance , the F/O said they were only 3 to 5 seconds in the roll. . A good time stamp is missing in there. Also pity no CRM questions were asked, was the Capt using the HUD or not, who said what , different reactions to the FedEx calls, discrepancies between the 2 there. The F/O also admitted he did not know what SMGCS meant on the day, so basic training issues on every front not only ATC.

But not here to blame individuals, as we see it is a system that is broken .To fix it will take money ,people and take lots of time to restore it. I mean years. . Only way to prevent an accident from coming is reducing traffic levels during that transition period. But is this feasible politically ? Moving traffic above anything else at a reduced cost seems to be the drive nowadays , not safety ..


ATC Watcher is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2023, 12:08
  #485 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 84
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
The ATC staff interviews are revealing a totally broken safety and training culture. [Ö]

Moving traffic above anything else at a reduced cost seems to be the drive nowadays , not safety ..
Which is the point Iíve been trying to get to in the DLH thread. Iím not sure if itís mentioned anywhere in this docket but the US standard for sign-off of a controller is ďmoderate traffic under supervisionĒ...and apparently even that is sometimes interpreted conveniently if it gets bums in seats faster. Iím not sure about how it was for you, but thatís not even close to the end of our live OJT - although admittedly supervisors are slightly different in the US, for all the good that did in this incident.

Iíve admittedly not read the pilot interviews, my impression from the initial reports and the ATC tapes is the FedEx pilot deserves a medal.
Request Orbit is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2023, 18:26
  #486 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: same planet as yours
Posts: 515
Received 6 Likes on 5 Posts
One can criticize NYT for their content, but NTSB... and proof-reading before publishing: "confirm your roll-in" (confirm you're rolling) / questioning about the HUD IR capabilities "It has EFIS" (It has EFVS) / "it's not a sea-to-land approach" / etc.

Originally Posted by Request Orbit
Iíve admittedly not read the pilot interviews, my impression from the initial reports and the ATC tapes is the FedEx pilot deserves a medal.
No medals me thinks, it was an experienced and professional FedEx crew that saved the day alright. But it was luck, and only luck that Met conditions allowed the F/O (and only the F/O) right at the very last moment to catch a glimpse of "a silhouette of the left wing". Fog layer any thicker or denser (as it was an hour later) and FedEx would have touched down. And luck, that the "SouthWest abort!" call by FedEx, was heard only by the SWA F/O, that their speed was well above 80, etc. so they continued. SWA slamming the brakes might well have turned this into a disaster. And that call also confused the TWR, who for a moment thought SWA was aborting, and thus gave the "roger, turn right when able". And in turn SWA acted upon it once airborne, while that was not intended by ATC. Additionally, SWA crew shallowing the climb-out profile, was also certainly improving separation.

Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
The SW pilots interview is comparatively much shorter and they got very easy questions compared to the controllers. 2 different treatments here. Not nice. . They did not pursue ....
Indeed, and neither any questions on why SWA in general are considered by ATC as always the fastest guys in town, "they churn and burn". And "United, no", "American, absolutely not" and "Delta, no way in hell". So, what's wrong with the big three? Or is SWA constantly pushing the (safety) limits? No questions asked so far, it seems.

Originally Posted by airplanecrazy
My confidence is restored. I have re-examined the data and believe the second video is +/- one second in audio timing that I received in an anonymous tip, and I believe that the aircraft are correctly positioned with respect to each other (within the limits discussed in the video description). Here are the audio times I am using:

12:38:48 southwest calls short of 18L
12:38:59 tower issues t/o clearance
12:39:14 southwest reads back t/o clearance
12:39:29 FedEx checks landing clearance
12:39:34 tower confirms landing clearance
12:39:40 FedEx Roger
12:40:10 tower checks if Southwest is on the roll
12:40:13 southwest on the roll
12:40:32 southwest abort
12:40:35 FedEx on the go

The flightradar24 granular data shows the roll starting at 2023-02-04 12:40:15Z. I will note that in my past experience, flightradar24 data timestamps are not always accurate (it depends on how well the time on the specific collector is synched).
One thing the timestamped R/T transcripts learned us, is that this video simulation was perfectly in sync with the actual R/T.

DIBO is online now  
Old 4th Dec 2023, 06:31
  #487 (permalink)  
Pegase Driver
 
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 73
Posts: 3,650
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
On the time stamp from the R/T , when the take off clearance is given ( roughly 39.00 ) the FedEx is given as 3 miles out , so at 140 Kts you're doing 2,3 NM per min ,, anyone in this business knows that if you sit there and take one minute to release the brakes, the guy on finals is going to be too close. , The FedEx goes around at time 40:30 so roughly one and half minute later , so at 140 Kts it was exactly 3NM out when this started and 1,5 minute later it was right above the SWA when going around. Simple math.

Someone deserving a medal ? well the Fedex F/O happened to spot the SW and did call the go around. . Would the Capt see it later ,through his HUD ?.Doubtful , he said he did not see anything despite the EFVS. . So yes the F/O ( which the NTSB guy keeps calling "Roger" . like in the "Airplane" movie ) saved the day and everyone on board that SW should be thankful to him.
One point from the FedEx Capt interview : he said : " on 3-mile final. my initial response was an expletive like ; "What's he doing?" but he did not challenge it, and was apparently comfortable with landing with another one " further down the runway "

Regarding CAT III , the FedEx Capt said : " You know, I do assume that he's [the controller] on top of it, as well, but we did have some concerns from, you know, the critical area, you know, and not knowing what their rules are and I didn't know what the tower's rules were"
Too many people were assuming things tat day
ATC Watcher is offline  
Old 5th Dec 2023, 00:15
  #488 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: New jersey
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
The FAA doesn’t seem to have funding to hire more controllers but the IRS is hiring 80,000 new agents, and we have plenty of cash to house and feed millions of illegals entering the country. Priorities are askew.
Chiefttp is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2024, 21:59
  #489 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Here, there, and everywhere
Posts: 1,109
Likes: 0
Received 10 Likes on 5 Posts
Originally Posted by punkalouver
A lot of gender and race based preferences these days to artificially change ratios. We read about it all the time. Based on an ATR crash and recent near collision disasters(JFK, HNL, AUS ), it would seem that the serious incidents may be skewed because of it, and only a mere 45 days into the year. Coincidence? Perhaps.

Remember the Atlas 767 where someone was hired despite a terrible known past and a terrible in company training record, yet allowed to continue training and flying. Maybe it is that way for everybody in the company. Some on this forum would know. Just a repeat of the Buffalo Dash-8 accident despite the new regulations that were implemented to prevent a repeat? Maybe.

The only truly near disaster that happened at a company I know very well(aircraft ended up within a couple of thousand feet laterally and zero feet vertically of a mountain at 300 knots) was a 777 given a wrong turn in LA from a controller that fit the preference profile(I did some investigating). Over 300 people on board that flight. Controller then fired.

But of course, you are clearly told what a terrible person you are if you simply say Hire the Best with an equal chance given to everyone as safety is the top priority. Frequently the politicized invent problems in order to implement their pre-planned solutions. The vast majority of us know that women are much less interested in the airline pilot lifestyle, yet the politicized insist that it must be due to discrimination. The same politicized types seem to have no issue or outcry with the gender imbalance for dirty jobs like trash collectors, construction and sewer workers(which can be reasonable paying union jobs with a pension). I don’t see any Women in Trash Collection organizations. But those are not glory jobs like an airline pilot. So we are reminded over and over about how terrible we are. Mainstream industry magazines publish this on a regular basis. Try to discuss this sort of thing online and governments literally threaten hate speech laws, slowed only by the courts, if one is fortunate.

Those vegans will kill a lot of people. But at least they will save the world. And if a minefield has been created for the NTSB to simply investigate, safety has definitely been compromised.

The amazing thing is how many people, both on the inside and outside of aviation, are willing to participate in that compromising. Many of whom on the inside would proudly never compromise any other safety standard.

And while I don’t expect my diatribe to have any effect on those who have implemented this into what has become standard policy in society, you will never be able to say that you were not warned by a dinosaur.

Originally Posted by hans brinker
For the last few decades aviation has gotten safer, as more diverse people have entered the field, so proving your point with statistics will be hard.
While my initial list of incidents included a taxi incident in HNL, it appears that the near disaster departure from HNL may be added to the list if the tweet is correct.

Rob Schneider tells United Airlines CEO he won't fly airline because it prioritizes ‘diversity’ over 'safety' | Fox News


"As evidenced by the near aviation catastrophe of UA Boeing 777 flight 1722 from Maui to San Francisco Dec 18th 2023, where your diverse but incompetent flight crew didn’t know which flaps were causing its near disastrous dissent, coming within 750 feet of killing every one aboard your United Airline."

A United Airlines spokesman told FOX Business shortly after the incident that an investigation revealed the pilots involved needed "additional training" to prevent such situations.
punkalouver is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.