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Light Aircraft crash at Blackbushe.

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Light Aircraft crash at Blackbushe.

Old 7th Aug 2015, 16:54
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So I still wonder with two crew whether this accident would have happened?

There have been many airline overrun crashes where we have wondered why the 2nd PM pilot didn't prevent it. The B737 in India that went over the cliff is a case in point, plus the ?a/c at Funchal did the same. All professional highly trained pilots; both of them.
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Old 7th Aug 2015, 17:37
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Originally Posted by RAT 5
So I still wonder with two crew whether this accident would have happened?

There have been many airline overrun crashes where we have wondered why the 2nd PM pilot didn't prevent it. The B737 in India that went over the cliff is a case in point, plus the ?a/c at Funchal did the same. All professional highly trained pilots; both of them.
And for very one of those cases, there are surely hundreds more where an effective two man crew did the right thing and prevented an accident.
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Old 7th Aug 2015, 18:28
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The Citation 550 and the Citation Bravo can be flown single pilot for private ops on the FAA register regardless of weight.
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Old 7th Aug 2015, 18:33
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That is true but not so in EASA land where even with an N reg the second pilot must have a minimum of an SIC rather than a full type.

Statistically the accident rate increases dramatically in single pilot Jet operations regardless of whether EASA or FAA

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Old 7th Aug 2015, 19:07
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two pilot better than one pilot?

"Statistically the accident rate increases dramatically in single pilot Jet operations regardless of whether EASA or FAA"

Not if the AIN article of 5th june 2015 by Gordon Gilbert, is anything to go by.

The article in full may be found at the following link:


Accident Analysis: Single-pilot versus Two-pilot - Is There a Safety Advantage? | Business Aviation News: Aviation International News

Reminds me of the old proverb two brains better than one, but what sort of truth lay behind that one.
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Old 7th Aug 2015, 19:42
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Originally Posted by Chronus
Not if the AIN article of 5th june 2015 by Gordon Gilbert, is anything to go by.
But it isn't. Classic example of denominator neglect.
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Old 7th Aug 2015, 20:18
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One of my worst approach and landings was in my early days doing a charter flight on a light twin. It was single crew and I was desperate for a pee. I had considered diverting en route. A goaround was not an option I wished to exercise. Consequently my judgement was very biased due to the uncomfortable circumstances. A friend had a similar problem when a bout of food poisoning caught up with him in a Navajo Chieftain on a mail run. Do any modern exec jets have a "P" tube in the flight deck for relief like the Kingairs used to have?
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Old 7th Aug 2015, 20:19
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Chronus

That doesn't match the CAA accident report which I read two years back where Single Pilot jet accident stats were approx five times higher than those operated by a professional crew

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Old 7th Aug 2015, 20:46
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Statistics v numbers.

Chronus: those ain't statistics; they're barely numbers. Per the article, since 1977, when the FAA allowed single-pilots on certain jets, 107 accidents have occurred with those types, and 67 involved two pilots, 40 involved single pilots.

So, the article tells us, SP ops are safer. Likewise, the Concorde was a safer airliner than the 737, since the Concorde only had one accident (What Mr. Reid means by denominator neglect).

But it gets worse. Even their BS numbers need to be massaged: they included 43 European accidents, while admitting that Europe does not allow SP ops with the same liberality as the FAA. Of those accidents, 4 were SP, 39 TP. So if you toss out the accidents for which the FAA 1977 decision is irrelevant, you get 28 TP accidents and 36 SP.
They shoulda doubled down, and said Euro pilots were ten times more dangerous in pairs.
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Old 7th Aug 2015, 21:24
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I think the lack of braking marks left in the short distance left to stop suggests a pilot no longer in complete control of his bodily functions. Short of putting a pilot ECG feed onto the FDR, Iím not sure how the AAIB can confirm that.
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Old 7th Aug 2015, 21:27
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In the debate about single pilot operations I think a study of the accident statistics would probably show that 2 crew professional ops will be safest and in descending order, owner pilot with older professional pilot, single pilot professional, owner with young professional and finally owner pilot.
I have no figures to back this up, just an opinion from watching accidents over the years.
Let's hear your opinions and even a few facts please.
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Old 8th Aug 2015, 06:21
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Originally Posted by suninmyeyes
One of my worst approach and landings was in my early days doing a charter flight on a light twin. It was single crew and I was desperate for a pee. I had considered diverting en route. A goaround was not an option I wished to exercise. Consequently my judgement was very biased due to the uncomfortable circumstances. A friend had a similar problem when a bout of food poisoning caught up with him in a Navajo Chieftain on a mail run. Do any modern exec jets have a "P" tube in the flight deck for relief like the Kingairs used to have?
Strange, but had voiced the same experience to a colleague only yesterday . Being caught short in a single crew aircraft is a nightmare....VIP passengers, on Airways, so can't leave your seat and anyway, what would your passengers think as you walk past them on your way to the toilet at the rear of the aircraft ? Now that is a reason for "pressing on " that I COULD understand as the distraction becomes almost unbearable....and the correct option is almost unthinkable in terms of embarrassment and humiliation.
Yes, I know what you'll all say, but wait until it happens to you and then you would understand, altho' I'd not wish the experience on anyone!
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Old 8th Aug 2015, 07:25
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The answer is a 'Car John'. However, it is a knack - really! and many find it hard to pee in vicinity of others so practice in family/friends until you can do it surreptitiously.
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Old 8th Aug 2015, 09:01
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This pilot approached way over his VREF speed even landing on the numbers he would have been hard pushed to have stopped in just over 1000 meters.
He touched down 400 meters from the end of the runway.

We do not know what was running through his mind at the time? He should have thrown away the approach when he realised that the aircraft was not stable especially on such a length limited runway.

to continue and touch down with only 400 meters left was a suicide action and I don't mean suicide in a literal term.

This was an experienced Captain who had landed there many times so why is completely baffling.

Only the ATC recordings will give an indication of his state of mind whether he was relaxed and lucid in his radio calls or stressed out and desperate or whether someone else was at the controls?

On the face of it this would look like an inexperienced PAX attempting to land rather than a 10000 hour Captain.

it is possible that there could have been some medical issue like a stroke which would have effected his normal thinking pattern or as stated earlier brain Lock due to stress.

I doubt the need to pee. I used to fly a Seneca five twin and its owner UK to Malaga we refuelled at St Sebastian but the temperature was very hot at 44 deg C and going into S Sebastian I felt ill. landing I informed the owner that I was not well enough to continue.

He recognised dehydration and got me to drink loads of water. This was miraculous as my recovery was almost instant.

i continued drinking water and we took off for the last leg to Malaga with the result that I was bursting for a pee.

You can get desperate and I though of everything from dangling it out of the pilot side window to wetting my pants but luckily we found an empty oil bottle in the back.

I doubt a need to pee caused this there was a fully accessible and functional toilet in this aircraft and even single pilot he would not have been away from the controls or ATC communication for more than a couple of minutes in the cruise! I am pretty sure as a single pilot he would have left the controls previously when nature called.

Something must have happened to effect his normal mental process and judgement? I don't think it was a need for a pee! you would wet yourself rather than kill yourself

Pace

Last edited by Pace; 8th Aug 2015 at 09:18.
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Old 8th Aug 2015, 09:34
  #155 (permalink)  
 
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I ask this as an open question with neutral opinion. I've had an ATC called 'go-round' due to a light a/c/vehicle crossing the runway well beyond my expected stopping point; but ATC don't know where that is. The runway was deemed to be not empty so they instructed G/A. If I'd had an emergency problem it would have been my call to land as I was visual.
In the instance, with ATC watching the disaster unfold in slow motion, what would you have done sitting in the tower?

1. "XYZ you seem very high and fast I strongly suggest you Go around."
2. "XYZ Go around I say again Go around."
3. Say nothing with hand on the crash button.

I do not know the full extent of ATC authority in such scenarios, nor the level of ATC at Biggin Hill. Is it control or advisory? Either way.....
Does ATC have a duty of care to the airfield and its environment? i.e. if they can see and perceive that some muppet is most likely to damage their territory and cause damage to person or property can they intervene to prevent such damage?

Open question about authority, responsibility and duty of care. Even with out these who of us in the street would not shout "STOP" or "Watch out" if some dreamer was stepping out in front of traffic.
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Old 8th Aug 2015, 10:12
  #156 (permalink)  
 
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Biggin is licensed ATC, Blackbushe is not.

As a licensed ATCO I would go for answer 2.
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Old 8th Aug 2015, 10:26
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Medical incapasitation

This approach flown by an experienced pilot was so bad in terms of airspeed and touchdown point that I can only reach the conclusion that he was suffering from a serious incapasitation.

As the aircraft seems to have been functioning well at the time of impact and the fire was intense it is likely that mechanical problems and fuel shortage are unlikely to be issues.

With the Germanwings case in mind suicide would seem an unlikely scenario simply because the approach was so badly flown as not to guarantee the intended outcome of this purely hypothetical scenario.

The postmortem on the pilot is likely to hold the key to this accident but all the indications tend to point to the medical incapasitation of the pilot at a critical time in the flight, however the medical evidence could well have been consumed in the fire.

It may be that the AAIB are not able to come to a firm conclusion to the cause of this tragic accident but the identity of the passengers is likely to be fuel for all sorts of conspiracy theory's that will run for years.
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Old 8th Aug 2015, 10:46
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Originally Posted by Pace
This pilot approached way over his VREF speed even landing on the numbers he would have been hard pushed to have stopped in just over 1000 meters.
He touched down 400 meters from the end of the runway.

We do not know what was running through his mind at the time? He should have thrown away the approach when he realised that the aircraft was not stable especially on such a length limited runway.

to continue and touch down with only 400 meters left was a suicide action and I don't mean suicide in a literal term.

This was an experienced Captain who had landed there many times so why is completely baffling.

Only the ATC recordings will give an indication of his state of mind whether he was relaxed and lucid in his radio calls or stressed out and desperate or whether someone else was at the controls?

On the face of it this would look like an inexperienced PAX attempting to land rather than a 10000 hour Captain.

it is possible that there could have been some medical issue like a stroke which would have effected his normal thinking pattern or as stated earlier brain Lock due to stress.

I doubt the need to pee. I used to fly a Seneca five twin and its owner UK to Malaga we refuelled at St Sebastian but the temperature was very hot at 44 deg C and going into S Sebastian I felt ill. landing I informed the owner that I was not well enough to continue.

He recognised dehydration and got me to drink loads of water. This was miraculous as my recovery was almost instant.

i continued drinking water and we took off for the last leg to Malaga with the result that I was bursting for a pee.

You can get desperate and I though of everything from dangling it out of the pilot side window to wetting my pants but luckily we found an empty oil bottle in the back.

I doubt a need to pee caused this there was a fully accessible and functional toilet in this aircraft and even single pilot he would not have been away from the controls or ATC communication for more than a couple of minutes in the cruise! I am pretty sure as a single pilot he would have left the controls previously when nature called.

Something must have happened to effect his normal mental process and judgement? I don't think it was a need for a pee! you would wet yourself rather than kill yourself

Pace
I agree 100% with your last sentence above , Pace.

I offered my suggestion as just that....taking into account the position of the Pilot and his relationship to the passengers. Your experience was with someone you knew quite well and could talk to as a "mate" and possibly someone who could understand your situation. Would two ladies and one gentleman of foreign birth ( VIP's ) have quite the same understanding I wonder ? How would they view the pilot revealing all whilst he pee'd into a bottle or perhaps the situation was more along the lines of "upset stomach"

Enough of my guessing, but for whatever reason , IMHO, that pilot was desperate to get that plane on the ground as quickly as possible. Someone else at the controls? I doubt very much that any competent Captain would allow someone else to do that with his pride and joy. A tragic ending for all concerned.
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Old 8th Aug 2015, 10:46
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The C550 and Bravo can fly single pilot in EASA land using the FAA single pilot waiver program.
This used to be the case but unless its a 501SP or 551SP and below 12500 sorry its not legal in EASA land only USA hence the SIC rather than full type

Pace

Last edited by Pace; 8th Aug 2015 at 11:13.
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Old 8th Aug 2015, 11:30
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If the pilot had become incapacitated to the point of being unresponsive and had the a/c been flown by a passenger he/she must have been at least a high-hours PPL or someone with a lot of sim/game experience as the a/c joined the cct in a classic manner. Joining procedure isn't something a non-pilot would know. Even a very experienced and able piston/single PPL might have ended up where this a/c did.
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