Light Aircraft crash at Blackbushe.
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It is a standard and normal practice and one every pilot should be ready to perform if anything is not right in the approach and landing
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His Dudeness
I can get my head around a pilot banging it down on the numbers at 135KTS when VREF should have been 108KTS and thinking OK I am fast but I can get the thing stopped on this limited runway
I cannot get my head around and I am sure you as an experienced Captain cannot get your head around touching down with 370 meters of available runway still remaining at 135KTS without the thought that I might as well put a bullet through my head as do this suicidal landing pressure or no pressure.
from the cockpit that distance remaining would have looked like nothing
for that reason I still feel the guy was not all together for whatever reason? It was not a Bravado thing but a certain death decision and if he was of sound mind he knew that as would you or I
Pace
I can get my head around a pilot banging it down on the numbers at 135KTS when VREF should have been 108KTS and thinking OK I am fast but I can get the thing stopped on this limited runway
I cannot get my head around and I am sure you as an experienced Captain cannot get your head around touching down with 370 meters of available runway still remaining at 135KTS without the thought that I might as well put a bullet through my head as do this suicidal landing pressure or no pressure.
from the cockpit that distance remaining would have looked like nothing
for that reason I still feel the guy was not all together for whatever reason? It was not a Bravado thing but a certain death decision and if he was of sound mind he knew that as would you or I
Pace
Please, before anyone goes on for one more moment with their incapacitation scenarios, do some research on "Confirmation Bias" and the affects it can have on decision making.
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mutt
Just to rule one thing out, none of the passengers were inclined to attempt to fly.
Just to rule one thing out, none of the passengers were inclined to attempt to fly.
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Pace, look, we most likely will never know what made him do that. Ironbutt delivers a scenario that might have played a role.
I made my boss spill his coffee on a G/A recently - we had to good a climb rate for the atcos taste and got a lower altitude as we were zooming upwards. In order not to bust the altitude given, well, I leveled not as smooth as I wished to.
Boss was furious, shirt was dirty...
Next very next flight (next day) we went to a smaller island and just after touchdown we realized a flock of seagulls sitting on the rwy. The decision NOT to G/A but to brake hard (I was PM on this leg) was surely made partly due to the drama we had the day before. (no issue, the Sovereign brakes are sooo good...)
I know my boss for 20+ years, we do not have a punishment culture and we are certainly not in master/slave relation. Never the less the boss would throw another drama, just to let remaining steam off...
These things play a role in the subconscious part of our brain. Sometimes more than we think.
However, at this point any scenario is as good as the other...
I made my boss spill his coffee on a G/A recently - we had to good a climb rate for the atcos taste and got a lower altitude as we were zooming upwards. In order not to bust the altitude given, well, I leveled not as smooth as I wished to.
Boss was furious, shirt was dirty...
Next very next flight (next day) we went to a smaller island and just after touchdown we realized a flock of seagulls sitting on the rwy. The decision NOT to G/A but to brake hard (I was PM on this leg) was surely made partly due to the drama we had the day before. (no issue, the Sovereign brakes are sooo good...)
I know my boss for 20+ years, we do not have a punishment culture and we are certainly not in master/slave relation. Never the less the boss would throw another drama, just to let remaining steam off...
These things play a role in the subconscious part of our brain. Sometimes more than we think.
However, at this point any scenario is as good as the other...
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I made my boss spill his coffee on a G/A recently
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Here is another from the archives. Citation C550 ll, G-JETB, Southampton Eastleigh on 26 May 1993. Arrived early before opening hours and in a heavy thunderstorm landed with plenty of wind up it`s six on a wet rwy and made an unceremonious exit sideways onto a carriageway, collided with two cars and well and truly demolished itself and the cars in the process. Fate did not require payment in lives on that occasion.
The captain had accumulated 16700hrs and his FO 1322hrs.
The full report is at:
https://assets.digital.cabinet-offic...994_G-JETB.pdf
Now, does this not make you wonder as to what the rush was all about. Perhaps for some it is necessary to prove over and over again that go by air is the quickest way to get there and no matter what get there one will.
The captain had accumulated 16700hrs and his FO 1322hrs.
The full report is at:
https://assets.digital.cabinet-offic...994_G-JETB.pdf
Now, does this not make you wonder as to what the rush was all about. Perhaps for some it is necessary to prove over and over again that go by air is the quickest way to get there and no matter what get there one will.
Never the less the boss would throw another drama, just to let remaining steam off...
These things play a role in the subconscious part of our brain. Sometimes more than we think.
These things play a role in the subconscious part of our brain. Sometimes more than we think.
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Heart to heart talk.
"Time to change bosses or have a heart to heart talk to him/her and make it known that in the aircraft you are the boss and he/she is the passenger."
Dust off your CV before you have that heart to heart talk.
Dust off your CV before you have that heart to heart talk.
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pitot/static icing
Lemain #234.
Surely that is a non-starter ?
Have you looked at Fig 1 of the AAIB report, illustrating the fine weather and no low cloud prevailing ?
Why that aircraft and no others ? Why should the system be frozen when the aircraft is downwind on a summer's afternoon but not cause concern on the high-level cruise ?
Have you carried out the crew-room punditry to determine at what altitude what combination of pitot or static blockage would have turned the observed speed at threshold of 150 kts to the 108 kts you suppose the pilot would have been reading ? I am not up to that sort of calculation. A blockage at 20,000 ft or so on the descent ?
Surely that is a non-starter ?
Have you looked at Fig 1 of the AAIB report, illustrating the fine weather and no low cloud prevailing ?
Why that aircraft and no others ? Why should the system be frozen when the aircraft is downwind on a summer's afternoon but not cause concern on the high-level cruise ?
Have you carried out the crew-room punditry to determine at what altitude what combination of pitot or static blockage would have turned the observed speed at threshold of 150 kts to the 108 kts you suppose the pilot would have been reading ? I am not up to that sort of calculation. A blockage at 20,000 ft or so on the descent ?
Pace
You seem to believe that being an experienced pilot means you are exempt from making poor/wrong in the heat of the moment decisions.
Look at another profession for example F1 Aryton Senna in the 1990 Japanese GP. First corner despite Arytons vast experience and godly driving skills and knowing a grave risk of potential injury to himself, spectators and Prost, he still decided to purposely at high speed crash in to Alain Prost. This was all in order to achieve his goal for that moment to not let Alain get to the 1st corner ahead of him.
In a lot of these runway excursions the same short term moment mentality exists to achieve the goal and touch down on that runway despite them knowing the risks.
If this was the case in the blackbush incident then maybe 200hr cadet in the RHS could have made the difference.
Personally if I see the end of the touchdown zone fast approaching I put the aircraft down not giving a s##t what the pax ( airline not biz jet) think if it bangs on. I will even go and say goodbye to the pax afterwards to make a point mostly to the FO that banging an aircraft in is not a bad thing to do and not to hide away in the flight deck after as there is no shame. If I get a few comments from pax so what, at least I my FO and my safety department no it's the right thing to do.
You seem to believe that being an experienced pilot means you are exempt from making poor/wrong in the heat of the moment decisions.
Look at another profession for example F1 Aryton Senna in the 1990 Japanese GP. First corner despite Arytons vast experience and godly driving skills and knowing a grave risk of potential injury to himself, spectators and Prost, he still decided to purposely at high speed crash in to Alain Prost. This was all in order to achieve his goal for that moment to not let Alain get to the 1st corner ahead of him.
In a lot of these runway excursions the same short term moment mentality exists to achieve the goal and touch down on that runway despite them knowing the risks.
If this was the case in the blackbush incident then maybe 200hr cadet in the RHS could have made the difference.
Personally if I see the end of the touchdown zone fast approaching I put the aircraft down not giving a s##t what the pax ( airline not biz jet) think if it bangs on. I will even go and say goodbye to the pax afterwards to make a point mostly to the FO that banging an aircraft in is not a bad thing to do and not to hide away in the flight deck after as there is no shame. If I get a few comments from pax so what, at least I my FO and my safety department no it's the right thing to do.
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I am flying today and was talking to another pilot who flew for a Saudi Family
You do not question your employer and basically they buy you
If one thinks he is a pilot you heap praise on his handling skills and do not tell him what to do
This still does not appear like the actions of an experienced pilot I would like to know if any charred remains were found in the right seat as my friend thinks
Who was flying this aircraft the pilot ? Or a dictatorial andvincompetant owner ?
Pace
You do not question your employer and basically they buy you
If one thinks he is a pilot you heap praise on his handling skills and do not tell him what to do
This still does not appear like the actions of an experienced pilot I would like to know if any charred remains were found in the right seat as my friend thinks
Who was flying this aircraft the pilot ? Or a dictatorial andvincompetant owner ?
Pace
It's hard to imagine that, had the RHS been occupied, they would have failed to mention that fact in an otherwise comprehensive account of the history of the flight.
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This still does not appear like the actions of an experienced pilot I would like to know if any charred remains were found in the right seat as my friend thinks
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Okay having listened to all the arguments on this very strange crash these are the options.
A) A very experienced Captain who had flown into this short airfield was forced high by slow traffic and then descended at a high rate (3000 fpm) to get on the glide. He flw over the numbers at 150 KTS way above his VREF of 108 KTS sailed down the runway and still flying at 135 KTS and literally no runway left attempted to land while still flying at 135KTS onto 380 meters.
A no win situation where he would hav known he had no chance of stopping
B) He was highly stressed and either went into brain freeze which allowed a normally clear thinking pilot to lose the plot or suffered some kind of medical upset where he was no longer making rational judgements
C) He allowed a non pilot to land the aircraft and was scared to force his authority over this person
D) He was angry maybe because of an argument with the employer did an angry dive at the runway and wanted to kill them including himself a la Lubitz
Apart from the above D) could include some gripe against the Bin Laden family I cannot get my head around an experienced pilot who was mentally aware putting that aircraft down with no possibility of it stopping which as an aware and experienced pilot he would have known
Pace
A) A very experienced Captain who had flown into this short airfield was forced high by slow traffic and then descended at a high rate (3000 fpm) to get on the glide. He flw over the numbers at 150 KTS way above his VREF of 108 KTS sailed down the runway and still flying at 135 KTS and literally no runway left attempted to land while still flying at 135KTS onto 380 meters.
A no win situation where he would hav known he had no chance of stopping
B) He was highly stressed and either went into brain freeze which allowed a normally clear thinking pilot to lose the plot or suffered some kind of medical upset where he was no longer making rational judgements
C) He allowed a non pilot to land the aircraft and was scared to force his authority over this person
D) He was angry maybe because of an argument with the employer did an angry dive at the runway and wanted to kill them including himself a la Lubitz
Apart from the above D) could include some gripe against the Bin Laden family I cannot get my head around an experienced pilot who was mentally aware putting that aircraft down with no possibility of it stopping which as an aware and experienced pilot he would have known
Pace
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In my opinion, the pilot flying was not an incompetent handler. In fact he was highly competent. He passed over the threshold at the correct height having been way outside of all normal flight parameters leading up to that stage in the approach. Obviously his speed was way beyond what it should have been (that's the laws of Physics for you) but he put the aircraft in the right place over the threshold. I don't think a novice would have been able to do that under the sequence of events experienced.
Where does this pilot normally land? Does he almost always land on very long non-limiting runways? At such a runway, he'd have had no problem achieving a safe outcome from this approach, and indeed he was probably never in the habit of even considering trigger points for going around, or aborting landings. On such a runway, he'd have landed very long, but he'd have easily had enough runway left to come to a safe stop. I bet he has preformed these kinds of manouvers several times before, such that he's rarely if ever had to abort an approach/landing, and his arrogance/complacency finally caught up with him. I think he was simply unaware of the fact that he was landing on a far more limiting runway than those previous occasions, either because he just never even thought about it before commencing his approach, or because he was so busy due to the complexity of his approach, that this one simple but highly important fact totally slipped his mind.
Where does this pilot normally land? Does he almost always land on very long non-limiting runways? At such a runway, he'd have had no problem achieving a safe outcome from this approach, and indeed he was probably never in the habit of even considering trigger points for going around, or aborting landings. On such a runway, he'd have landed very long, but he'd have easily had enough runway left to come to a safe stop. I bet he has preformed these kinds of manouvers several times before, such that he's rarely if ever had to abort an approach/landing, and his arrogance/complacency finally caught up with him. I think he was simply unaware of the fact that he was landing on a far more limiting runway than those previous occasions, either because he just never even thought about it before commencing his approach, or because he was so busy due to the complexity of his approach, that this one simple but highly important fact totally slipped his mind.