Light Aircraft crash at Blackbushe.
I think he was simply unaware of the fact that he was landing on a far more limiting runway than those previous occasion
The investigation will tell us one way or the other.
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Pace
You have to understand the mentality of some pax from that part of world, very demanding, most likely at the wrong time in the flight coupled with an RA in the circuit again probably caused by pax distraction. This leads to the situation of being high and fast, pilot of the same makeup does not want to lose face in front of his employer, similar make up to the Russian mentality, I am sure the CVR/FDR will tell all.
To put it in context during the 90's there were many students from the Middle East attending commercial pilot training at well known establishments in the UK who had won rather large training contracts.
Those who didn't come up to standard were not sent home with a fail certificate but a certificate stating they had completed the course so there was no loss of face when returning home, some continued to fly when they returned home.
You have to understand the mentality of some pax from that part of world, very demanding, most likely at the wrong time in the flight coupled with an RA in the circuit again probably caused by pax distraction. This leads to the situation of being high and fast, pilot of the same makeup does not want to lose face in front of his employer, similar make up to the Russian mentality, I am sure the CVR/FDR will tell all.
To put it in context during the 90's there were many students from the Middle East attending commercial pilot training at well known establishments in the UK who had won rather large training contracts.
Those who didn't come up to standard were not sent home with a fail certificate but a certificate stating they had completed the course so there was no loss of face when returning home, some continued to fly when they returned home.
Last edited by Above The Clouds; 12th Aug 2015 at 11:58. Reason: spelling
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Maybe we need legislation stating no pax in the F/D jumpseat (Aspen Gulfstream crash) or in any up front seat in Bizjets.
I personally do not permit anybody but crew on my jumpseat. The jumpseat on my type clearly states crew use only. Several times I've pointed this out to the pax. Distractions from pax (owners) at critical times during the flight are not safe nor welcome.
This could be all speculation, we do not know if he was on his own up front...
I personally do not permit anybody but crew on my jumpseat. The jumpseat on my type clearly states crew use only. Several times I've pointed this out to the pax. Distractions from pax (owners) at critical times during the flight are not safe nor welcome.
This could be all speculation, we do not know if he was on his own up front...
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Hawker 800
Maybe we need legislation stating no pax in the F/D jumpseat (Aspen Gulfstream crash) or in any up front seat in Bizjets.
I personally do not permit anybody but crew on my jumpseat. The jumpseat on my type clearly states crew use only. Several times I've pointed this out to the pax. Distractions from pax (owners) at critical times during the flight are not safe nor welcome.
Maybe we need legislation stating no pax in the F/D jumpseat (Aspen Gulfstream crash) or in any up front seat in Bizjets.
I personally do not permit anybody but crew on my jumpseat. The jumpseat on my type clearly states crew use only. Several times I've pointed this out to the pax. Distractions from pax (owners) at critical times during the flight are not safe nor welcome.
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DaveReidUK:
However, that certification may be restricted for commercial operations; then again, it may not.
The Phenom is certificated to carry 10 passengers: 9 in the cabin and the 10th in the RHS.
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The standard Phenom -300 seating configuration is 8, including the pilot.
Optional seating configurations:
Option 1: Up to 11 occupants with optional items such as the belted toilet and the 2-place divan.
Option 2: Up to 10 occupants with optional items such as the 7th* seat and the belted toilet.
*The 7th seat is a sideways bench-style seat located at the aft bulkhead, and is suitable for a cabin attendant.
Optional seating configurations:
Option 1: Up to 11 occupants with optional items such as the belted toilet and the 2-place divan.
Option 2: Up to 10 occupants with optional items such as the 7th* seat and the belted toilet.
*The 7th seat is a sideways bench-style seat located at the aft bulkhead, and is suitable for a cabin attendant.
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Assuming he's fully configured for landing with the engines at flight idle, would he have a problem clearing the fence after initiating a go around at 135kt with 380m remaining? Easy enough in anything I've ever flown, but I've no idea how long it would take for the engines to spool up on a Phenom.
You can paint yourself into a corner in any type, but I'd imagine the risk is greater with a jet & a short runway.
That, of course, doesn't explain why he didn't throw this approach away much earlier.
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It's hard to imagine that, had the RHS been occupied, they would have failed to mention that fact in an otherwise comprehensive account of the history of the flight.
I just cannot get my head round this approach / landing by a professional pilot who knew both his airplane and the airport. I mean - 3000ft/min descent? Something's wrong here....
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Silliert
At 135 Kts he was well over VR for a go around at any point and attempting an impossible stop was the worst of two evils
We even do single engine go arounds so with two it was no big deal
And should have been a piece of cake at those speeds
Pace
At 135 Kts he was well over VR for a go around at any point and attempting an impossible stop was the worst of two evils
We even do single engine go arounds so with two it was no big deal
And should have been a piece of cake at those speeds
Pace
I don't know if the track display in the early posts include functions monitored on board or are entirely derived from ground radar.
If no on board indicators are yet know then is it possible failure/ under read/ mis-read of ASI occurred? Total reliance on erroneous reading of ASI during high work load event started during some upset in the circuit, perhaps?
If no on board indicators are yet know then is it possible failure/ under read/ mis-read of ASI occurred? Total reliance on erroneous reading of ASI during high work load event started during some upset in the circuit, perhaps?
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Pace
Although I usually agree with what you say I don't agree with:
[QUOTE][D) He was angry maybe because of an argument with the employer did an angry dive at the runway and wanted to kill them including himself a la Lubitz /QUOTE]
If that was the case I don't think he would have bothered to have flared let alone found the destination airport and runway.
I would be interested to know if in the corporate world it is permissable to ignore a GPWS "pull up" let alone multiple ones. In the airline world the flight data recorders would throw it up and it would be a sackable offence.
Although I usually agree with what you say I don't agree with:
[QUOTE][D) He was angry maybe because of an argument with the employer did an angry dive at the runway and wanted to kill them including himself a la Lubitz /QUOTE]
If that was the case I don't think he would have bothered to have flared let alone found the destination airport and runway.
I would be interested to know if in the corporate world it is permissable to ignore a GPWS "pull up" let alone multiple ones. In the airline world the flight data recorders would throw it up and it would be a sackable offence.
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Suninmyeyes
We don't really know )) maybe he had sun in his eyes and could not see the end of the runway )))
Fact is either someone else was at the controls or something happened to his state of mind which allowed him to behave in that manner
We don't know! Maybe the tapes will give a clue to how he sounded in the radio background checks on his personal life and working life, medical notes etc
I doubt an autopsy will be possible
Pace
We don't really know )) maybe he had sun in his eyes and could not see the end of the runway )))
Fact is either someone else was at the controls or something happened to his state of mind which allowed him to behave in that manner
We don't know! Maybe the tapes will give a clue to how he sounded in the radio background checks on his personal life and working life, medical notes etc
I doubt an autopsy will be possible
Pace
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somebody other than pilot at the controls
Given the experience of the pilot it is hard to conceive that he could have exercised such poor judgement would appear to be the central issue of debate.
According to news reports the passengers on this ill fated flight were Osama`s step mother, his sister and her husband Zuhair Hashim. Given that Osama`s father Mohammad lost his life in the crash of his B18, carrying the same call sign as the Phenom 300, in 1967 and Salem bin Laden also lost his life in a light a/c crash in 1988, I would have thought it unlikely that the pax would have been likely candidates for the attempted landing. It would be a reasonable assumption that the family would ensure they had the best in crew and equipment for travel by air.
AAIB has all the necessary expertise and resources to determine the disposition and situation of all those on board at the time of the accident, of that I am fairly confident. This is a high profile investigation, the release of their initial report more than suggests this.
According to news reports the passengers on this ill fated flight were Osama`s step mother, his sister and her husband Zuhair Hashim. Given that Osama`s father Mohammad lost his life in the crash of his B18, carrying the same call sign as the Phenom 300, in 1967 and Salem bin Laden also lost his life in a light a/c crash in 1988, I would have thought it unlikely that the pax would have been likely candidates for the attempted landing. It would be a reasonable assumption that the family would ensure they had the best in crew and equipment for travel by air.
AAIB has all the necessary expertise and resources to determine the disposition and situation of all those on board at the time of the accident, of that I am fairly confident. This is a high profile investigation, the release of their initial report more than suggests this.
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suninmyeyes
I would be interested to know if in the corporate world it is permissable to ignore a GPWS "pull up" let alone multiple ones. In the airline world the flight data recorders would throw it up and it would be a sackable offence.
I would be interested to know if in the corporate world it is permissable to ignore a GPWS "pull up" let alone multiple ones. In the airline world the flight data recorders would throw it up and it would be a sackable offence.
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Chronus
They had a Jet worth 7-8 $ Million, two expensive engines,back up systems and state of the art navigation, yet relied on one Pilot not a CREW, one heart and one Brain in the front.
I know of one outfit where the owner DOES want the best in crew and does not even have 1 Captain and One low time FO.
All his crew are experienced Captains and fly alternative legs. One acting as FO one leg and Captain the next.
That is having the best in Crew not one 57 year old pilot flying single pilot in an $8 mill jet as single pilot NOT crew
So maybe the family are jinxed to die in air crashes
Pace
they had the best in crew and equipment for travel by air.
I know of one outfit where the owner DOES want the best in crew and does not even have 1 Captain and One low time FO.
All his crew are experienced Captains and fly alternative legs. One acting as FO one leg and Captain the next.
That is having the best in Crew not one 57 year old pilot flying single pilot in an $8 mill jet as single pilot NOT crew
So maybe the family are jinxed to die in air crashes
Pace
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In full agreement with PACE, last para in particular.
Much like the legend of Maiden`s /Leander`s Tower and the oracles prophecy. No doubt whatsoever, two pilot ops always best, but in this instance perhaps it would not have persuaded the sisters of fate to change their minds.
Much like the legend of Maiden`s /Leander`s Tower and the oracles prophecy. No doubt whatsoever, two pilot ops always best, but in this instance perhaps it would not have persuaded the sisters of fate to change their minds.
Two Captains flying together, generally means a very shallow command gradient and can be less safe than a steeper gradient with a Captain and 'experienced' FO.
Just my opinion!
Just my opinion!
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BingoFuel
I would tend to agree that having two Captains can lead to a conflict and one trying to get authority over the other.
It depends on personality and compatibility of the crew as well as a good understanding and acceptance of the changing roles.
On the whole a Captain and as you put it and an experienced FO is the better combination although in the outfit I know of the blend of Captains works well.
the problem with a Captain and inexperienced FO is there can be too much of a gap between the two meaning the Captain is not challenged on mistakes firmly enough and with a simple SIC maybe hardly more than sandbags in the right seat
Having said that some very wealthy Arabs carry two crew, doctors and medical facilities as well as some amazing looking Cabin crew on larger private jets or converted A320 s etc
I would question the Bin Ladens using one pilot and infact using Blackbushe at all when they had Farnborough almost in the circuit stinks of cost cutting, which cost them their lives as I have no doubts that had there been an experienced FO there this accident would not have happened
Pace
I would tend to agree that having two Captains can lead to a conflict and one trying to get authority over the other.
It depends on personality and compatibility of the crew as well as a good understanding and acceptance of the changing roles.
On the whole a Captain and as you put it and an experienced FO is the better combination although in the outfit I know of the blend of Captains works well.
the problem with a Captain and inexperienced FO is there can be too much of a gap between the two meaning the Captain is not challenged on mistakes firmly enough and with a simple SIC maybe hardly more than sandbags in the right seat
Having said that some very wealthy Arabs carry two crew, doctors and medical facilities as well as some amazing looking Cabin crew on larger private jets or converted A320 s etc
I would question the Bin Ladens using one pilot and infact using Blackbushe at all when they had Farnborough almost in the circuit stinks of cost cutting, which cost them their lives as I have no doubts that had there been an experienced FO there this accident would not have happened
Pace
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[I]Two Captains flying together, generally means a very shallow command gradient and can be less safe than a steeper gradient with a Captain and 'experienced' FO.
It might be true, but then it depends. I've flown biz-jets and many airlines. In the biz-jet world the 2-4 captains per a/c will know each other very well and should have worked out an adult professional relationship and understand their roles. In an airline with 100's of captains, they might be strangers and have different seniority and personal preferences. If one is a training captain and the other a line captain that can really offer a possibility of scary scenario. There have been well documented incidents where there were 2 captains on the flight deck, and one or both were training captains. They can tend to think they are bullet proof.
It might be true, but then it depends. I've flown biz-jets and many airlines. In the biz-jet world the 2-4 captains per a/c will know each other very well and should have worked out an adult professional relationship and understand their roles. In an airline with 100's of captains, they might be strangers and have different seniority and personal preferences. If one is a training captain and the other a line captain that can really offer a possibility of scary scenario. There have been well documented incidents where there were 2 captains on the flight deck, and one or both were training captains. They can tend to think they are bullet proof.