Light Aircraft crash at Blackbushe.
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They had a Jet worth 7-8 $ Million, two expensive engines,back up systems and state of the art navigation, yet relied on one Pilot not a CREW, one heart and one Brain in the front.
Don't you fly Citations single pilot though?
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Hawker800
The Citations I fly have been 500s 550s and 560s and even the 500s require two crew in Europe only the 501SP and 551SP are single Pilot. I have flown one 551SP but even there most were uncomfortable with one at the controls the benefit being any sandbag untype rated and inexperienced FO could be used and some I worried whether they would even carry off a successful approach and landing in bad weather if I went down with food poisoning or other medical incapacitation
The 551SP has to be flown below 12500 ibs which makes it practically a nonsense for PAX loading or range anyway.
Only in the USA can the models be flown SP. With a SP endorsement.
There are the very light weight jets like the CJs Phenom 100s, Eclipses which are SP.
The Phenom 300 is 18000 ibs so hardly a very light jet and unlike the straight winged Citations very fast.
Single Pilot in Jets? This accident would not have happened had there been an experienced FO on board.
Should jets be flown SP? i find the straight winged Citations are easier to fly than some of the piston powered twins I used to fly SP in all the weather. I have around 3000 hours in Piston powered twins 70% flown single pilot the difference being that the jets fly at over twice the speed.
Its when things go wrong that that the speed becomes relevent.
I think this accident will highlight the SP element in jets as it was not a VLJ, It is swept wing and very fast and at what point do you cut off and allow SP operations because of marketing pressures by the manufactures? Oh well maybe Airbus will bring out an A320 SP )))
Single pilot in very fast aircraft is probably more the spirit of the thing.We used a TBM 850 when the Citation was out of action. UK to Nice and the TBM 850 was probably only 10 minus behind the Citation time wise (Maybe RVSM airspace should be the cutoff point for SP) as the TBM was quite happy just below.
but then the VLJs would not be happy below
VLJs including the baby Phenom, mustangs CJ1s Eclipses were all marketed at the self fly private owner who wanted to fly himself and the family. That is the spirit of the thing with SP baby jets or even fast turboprops like the TBM
The Phenom 300s and CJ4s are swept wing very fast and heavy jets with more than just the family mum and two kids spirit of VLJs where do you cut off with SP ops ?
Maybe you could regulate SP to a maximum of SIX seats including the crew seats?
Pace
The Citations I fly have been 500s 550s and 560s and even the 500s require two crew in Europe only the 501SP and 551SP are single Pilot. I have flown one 551SP but even there most were uncomfortable with one at the controls the benefit being any sandbag untype rated and inexperienced FO could be used and some I worried whether they would even carry off a successful approach and landing in bad weather if I went down with food poisoning or other medical incapacitation
The 551SP has to be flown below 12500 ibs which makes it practically a nonsense for PAX loading or range anyway.
Only in the USA can the models be flown SP. With a SP endorsement.
There are the very light weight jets like the CJs Phenom 100s, Eclipses which are SP.
The Phenom 300 is 18000 ibs so hardly a very light jet and unlike the straight winged Citations very fast.
Single Pilot in Jets? This accident would not have happened had there been an experienced FO on board.
Should jets be flown SP? i find the straight winged Citations are easier to fly than some of the piston powered twins I used to fly SP in all the weather. I have around 3000 hours in Piston powered twins 70% flown single pilot the difference being that the jets fly at over twice the speed.
Its when things go wrong that that the speed becomes relevent.
I think this accident will highlight the SP element in jets as it was not a VLJ, It is swept wing and very fast and at what point do you cut off and allow SP operations because of marketing pressures by the manufactures? Oh well maybe Airbus will bring out an A320 SP )))
Single pilot in very fast aircraft is probably more the spirit of the thing.We used a TBM 850 when the Citation was out of action. UK to Nice and the TBM 850 was probably only 10 minus behind the Citation time wise (Maybe RVSM airspace should be the cutoff point for SP) as the TBM was quite happy just below.
but then the VLJs would not be happy below
VLJs including the baby Phenom, mustangs CJ1s Eclipses were all marketed at the self fly private owner who wanted to fly himself and the family. That is the spirit of the thing with SP baby jets or even fast turboprops like the TBM
The Phenom 300s and CJ4s are swept wing very fast and heavy jets with more than just the family mum and two kids spirit of VLJs where do you cut off with SP ops ?
Maybe you could regulate SP to a maximum of SIX seats including the crew seats?
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 13th Aug 2015 at 10:47.
A little hint: on the day of the accident I was in Malpensa, the origin of the accident-flight, and was told that the pilot in question seemed to be stressed and quickly got "angry" after the FBO made an error with his invoice. Something was wrong with this guy, maybe he was getting pushed by the owners?
What puzzles me is the fact that the Bin Ladin family of stinking rich, already lost several members of their family in plane accidents and yet they decided to fly with one pilot only. Would it be that they still haven't understood this industry?
What puzzles me is the fact that the Bin Ladin family of stinking rich, already lost several members of their family in plane accidents and yet they decided to fly with one pilot only. Would it be that they still haven't understood this industry?
Maybe the captain did not want an FO. I heard especially in this sector where captains would not want a FO especially experienced since it could be a threat to their own position. Let's face it. If you employ the services of an experienced FO who then happens to get along with your boss you could be in the situation where you end up losing your position and next you hear your FO is now capt on your old jet. With not having to need an FO on a SP why bother having the threat to your job in the RHS.
Pace
The powers that be means there are s/p citations but as of yet not an sp airbus 320. The slowtation didn't get its name for nothing!
Pace
The powers that be means there are s/p citations but as of yet not an sp airbus 320. The slowtation didn't get its name for nothing!
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With not having to need an FO on a SP why bother having the threat to your job in the RHS.
The sooner SP ops are done away with on jets the better. An F/O may have called a G/A, and probably would have. An F/O would have been another pair of eyes on board with the potential to avoid the RA.
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MooneyBoy
That is a real threat in privately owned jets especially with older Captains where a younger experienced pilot with the right insurance hours becomes a threat.
I have known three Captains who have lost positions in such a way.
On N reg these older Captains are more likely to use low time FOs with an SIC only as such a pilot is the next best thing to SP while not being a threat.
experienced and high hours FOs are a threat and i am sure these Captains are aware of that protecting what they see as their baby and livelihood.
Interesting was an above post by a pilot who saw this pilot before departure and who described him as angry and stressed before the flight.
Maybe the VFR approach, anger and intense stress having to avoid slow aircraft was the thing that finally broke the camels back and made him loose the plot on the landing
The Phenom 300 is not a slowtation but a very fast 18000 ib multi seater FL450 swept wing jet and still SP 
pressure from the industry makes for a very odd certification mix
Pace
That is a real threat in privately owned jets especially with older Captains where a younger experienced pilot with the right insurance hours becomes a threat.
I have known three Captains who have lost positions in such a way.
On N reg these older Captains are more likely to use low time FOs with an SIC only as such a pilot is the next best thing to SP while not being a threat.
experienced and high hours FOs are a threat and i am sure these Captains are aware of that protecting what they see as their baby and livelihood.
Interesting was an above post by a pilot who saw this pilot before departure and who described him as angry and stressed before the flight.
Maybe the VFR approach, anger and intense stress having to avoid slow aircraft was the thing that finally broke the camels back and made him loose the plot on the landing
The slowtation didn't get its name for nothing!
pressure from the industry makes for a very odd certification mixPace
Last edited by Pace; 13th Aug 2015 at 10:56.
Hawker 800,
I totally agree with you. S/P should be got rid of even on things like TBM700. To be honest I even think no one should be allowed to take passengers who have no flying experience even in a PA 28 if their SP. I would never take my young kids flying in any aircraft because let's face it if I die/heart attack/stroke then I've just signed their death warrant too.
I was getting across the point that the previously mentioned mentality about being wary who is in the RHS does exist even with the increased risk to the flight.
I totally agree with you. S/P should be got rid of even on things like TBM700. To be honest I even think no one should be allowed to take passengers who have no flying experience even in a PA 28 if their SP. I would never take my young kids flying in any aircraft because let's face it if I die/heart attack/stroke then I've just signed their death warrant too.
I was getting across the point that the previously mentioned mentality about being wary who is in the RHS does exist even with the increased risk to the flight.
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Interesting was an above post by a pilot who saw this pilot before departure and who described him as angry and stressed before the flight.
Jepp updates, cleaning the a/c, maintenance paperwork, collecting bags or cargo, self flight planning, organising catering, updating the FMS's, paying bills etc? This can all lead to stress in a private operation. You can be tired before any actual flying commences. Some firms even have pilots do mundane office duties 9-5 all week then expect them to fly. Sure enough, go in and do a bit of paperwork maybe, but a 9-5 job AND having to fly it? I am also a firm believer in FTL's for private operators, although many would disagree.
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@EatMyShorts
The answer to your questions is most probably yes.
A massive degree of ignorance exists concerning almost every profession and environment.
The possession of money does not decrease the probability.
The answer to your questions is most probably yes.
A massive degree of ignorance exists concerning almost every profession and environment.
The possession of money does not decrease the probability.
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FTL's for private operators, although many would disagree.
But its not just the FTLs its the work days. Some can run into 18 hrs especially if the jet location is not just down the road ( that can happen a lot)
put a single pilot into that mix with all the ground duties which airline pilots do not face and single pilot you are looking at potential disasterPace
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MooneyBoy has a point 
you become unwell in a car, you hit the brakes and are stopped in a few seconds.
Become unwell in IMC 70 miles from an airport with a challenging instrument approach and its different.
He could always look at a Cirrus with the chute which to date has been exceptionally reliable and saved 40 lives.
it is then a matter of training his loved ones in its use
Pace
you become unwell in a car, you hit the brakes and are stopped in a few seconds. Become unwell in IMC 70 miles from an airport with a challenging instrument approach and its different.
He could always look at a Cirrus with the chute which to date has been exceptionally reliable and saved 40 lives.
it is then a matter of training his loved ones in its use
Pace
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That's my point, Pace.
We can do longer duties than a long haul crew, and frequently do. An 18 hour day/days is not uncommon in private ops, even if you are sat around in an FBO drinking tea for some of it.
I have a friend who flew a Sovereign from the Miami area to Goose, then Goose to Shannon, then on to Italy. That's just not safe...To top that, he had operated a Cancun to Miami the night before. This particular crew I'm writing about (private operator) could not have been at the top of their game landing after the third sector and several timezones, but at least there was two of them in the cockpit to keep each other straight.
That's my point, their are unscrupulous well to do owners of jets that will exploit pilots like this. I see them all of the time in FBO's. At least with an FTL scheme they would have some form of protection, and a comeback to their employers should the owner pull a fast one and try and unfairly dismiss them for refusing to fly whilst not rested.
Not saying this is what happened, but it is a distinct possibility that the Pilot was tired.
We can do longer duties than a long haul crew, and frequently do. An 18 hour day/days is not uncommon in private ops, even if you are sat around in an FBO drinking tea for some of it.
I have a friend who flew a Sovereign from the Miami area to Goose, then Goose to Shannon, then on to Italy. That's just not safe...
To top that, he had operated a Cancun to Miami the night before. This particular crew I'm writing about (private operator) could not have been at the top of their game landing after the third sector and several timezones, but at least there was two of them in the cockpit to keep each other straight.That's my point, their are unscrupulous well to do owners of jets that will exploit pilots like this. I see them all of the time in FBO's. At least with an FTL scheme they would have some form of protection, and a comeback to their employers should the owner pull a fast one and try and unfairly dismiss them for refusing to fly whilst not rested.
Not saying this is what happened, but it is a distinct possibility that the Pilot was tired.
Hang on why are we surprised at anything these days? If recent posts on this thread are anything to go by some seem surprised that a combination of X+ hours and X+ dollars worth of equipment means something.
Really? Does that reflect reality? Maybe it does in some cases but it certainly doesn't grant immunity from a shunt.
Recent helicopter accidents in particular have demonstrated that experience is no savoir - London in poor viz and Glasgow low fuel. Neither does a big cheque book and a lot of kit save you, thinking the Haughey Air AW139 that crashed within moments of lifting in Norfolk.
One insight to the mindset here is that for all that experience and resource this flight ended at Blackbushe, sharing the circuit with microlight traffic, rather than Farnborough. Why?
From the initial AAIB report the captain flew a very poor circuit and approach. Is that what 11k hours gives you?
Really? Does that reflect reality? Maybe it does in some cases but it certainly doesn't grant immunity from a shunt.
Recent helicopter accidents in particular have demonstrated that experience is no savoir - London in poor viz and Glasgow low fuel. Neither does a big cheque book and a lot of kit save you, thinking the Haughey Air AW139 that crashed within moments of lifting in Norfolk.
One insight to the mindset here is that for all that experience and resource this flight ended at Blackbushe, sharing the circuit with microlight traffic, rather than Farnborough. Why?
From the initial AAIB report the captain flew a very poor circuit and approach. Is that what 11k hours gives you?
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Hawker
We ferried a Citation Belgium to Dallas again a very long day in the cruise the FO or to be accurate a guy who also flew as a Captain started talking rubbish the type of "can you close the tent door theres a draft" sort of rubbish we were then at night. I had to get him to put on the oxygen mask! That was complete exhaustion.
18 hour days can be commonplace even on bread and butter days in europe and as you said you can be exhausted before you even start the flying bit
Pace
We ferried a Citation Belgium to Dallas again a very long day in the cruise the FO or to be accurate a guy who also flew as a Captain started talking rubbish the type of "can you close the tent door theres a draft" sort of rubbish we were then at night. I had to get him to put on the oxygen mask! That was complete exhaustion.
18 hour days can be commonplace even on bread and butter days in europe and as you said you can be exhausted before you even start the flying bit
Pace
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My point exactly Pace.
We've all done silly long days at one point or another. Most of us are still here to turn down such trips in the future though! A night in a hotel wont cost much to an owner, and he and his asset (and the crew) will arrive fresh and more rested, in one piece.
PittsExtra,
It does not. Not without a rested crew (two) capable of making good command decisions, and monitoring each other. The other bloke/girl may just save your life.
Most private crews are professional, experienced, follow SOP's, adhere to FTL's of sorts even although they do not legally apply. We also have SMS within flight departments. It's all about growing a safety culture. Sadly, the airframer didn't see fit to certify this aircraft as two crew. They push SMS on small operators at great expense, then certify and fly single pilot into a busy VFR field with a fantastic (if expensive) runway next door.
We've all done silly long days at one point or another. Most of us are still here to turn down such trips in the future though! A night in a hotel wont cost much to an owner, and he and his asset (and the crew) will arrive fresh and more rested, in one piece.
If recent posts on this thread are anything to go by some seem surprised that a combination of X+ hours and X+ dollars worth of equipment means something.
It does not. Not without a rested crew (two) capable of making good command decisions, and monitoring each other. The other bloke/girl may just save your life.
Most private crews are professional, experienced, follow SOP's, adhere to FTL's of sorts even although they do not legally apply. We also have SMS within flight departments. It's all about growing a safety culture. Sadly, the airframer didn't see fit to certify this aircraft as two crew. They push SMS on small operators at great expense, then certify and fly single pilot into a busy VFR field with a fantastic (if expensive) runway next door.
GS alpha, yes you have a fair point about the car however as pace mentioned you would hope just before you become incap you might stand a chance of either braking or even moving your foot off the accelerator. Car is a lot quicker and simpler to bring to a stop than an airborne aircraft. Obviously there will always be exceptional circumstances however I would still prefer to have a heart attack in a car with my kids in the back than in a single piloted aircraft.
Pace yes you could use a cirrus and teach them to use a chute however it wouldn't protect anyone from a single pilot error/judgement if you for example decide to touchdown a 100m before the end and run into a tree at 100kts.
Also Pace yes with airline work you don't have to do quite as much secretarial work as you however try dealing with a 3 hour slot, 180 disgruntled passengers, tug driver who has just driven off 15mins before your slot and then also trying to convince your crew they should operate into a day off whilst remembering after all that to think about your departure and flight. Different areas in flying have different but no less important challenges right from flying a c150 to flying a 747.
Pace yes you could use a cirrus and teach them to use a chute however it wouldn't protect anyone from a single pilot error/judgement if you for example decide to touchdown a 100m before the end and run into a tree at 100kts.
Also Pace yes with airline work you don't have to do quite as much secretarial work as you however try dealing with a 3 hour slot, 180 disgruntled passengers, tug driver who has just driven off 15mins before your slot and then also trying to convince your crew they should operate into a day off whilst remembering after all that to think about your departure and flight. Different areas in flying have different but no less important challenges right from flying a c150 to flying a 747.
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Also Pace yes with airline work you don't have to do quite as much secretarial work as you however try dealing with a 3 hour slot, 180 disgruntled passengers, tug driver who has just driven off 15mins before your slot and then also trying to convince your crew they should operate into a day off whilst remembering after all that to think about your departure and flight.
I agree wholeheartedly with you though, we all fly professionally and each face different problems.
this flight ended at Blackbushe
Now that Blink own the airfield, one would imagine that will only increase.