Becoming a pilot & Aviation Industry in 2014 - a disgrace?
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You always get one or two trying to lower the tone of the topic with smart comments trying to get a cheap giggle off people, however I am only writing facts as they are. With your amazing sense of humour I'm rather glad I don't have to sit next to you for hours in a day, there in itself might lie the answer why you yourself do not hold one of the more appealing positions in the industry !!! But I could be wrong !!
To be fair, Seamaster, you were the first to elude to feeling a little uncomfortable with your prose about how cushy your life has been and it's not surprising that others have reacted with the envy you expected.
There are very few positions such as yours available. If the trickle of new joiners are getting the same deal, you might be even luckier than we initially thought - the only UK airline where terms and conditions are not dropping like a stone. Good luck to you and your colleagues. I hope your airline's business model is robust!
There are very few positions such as yours available. If the trickle of new joiners are getting the same deal, you might be even luckier than we initially thought - the only UK airline where terms and conditions are not dropping like a stone. Good luck to you and your colleagues. I hope your airline's business model is robust!
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Even in my 4 years with my current operator, wages for new captains have dropped by 35%.
why you yourself do not hold one of the more appealing positions in the industry
The point is, smaller companies offering good terms don't recruit too many pilots compared to the Low Costs, so, more pilots will be working for the big names eg; EZY and FR and will find it difficult to move on.
Since I joined my company 250 new pilots now lie below me on the seniority list, why has one of these jobs not become yours ?? I don't know ask yourself ???
I think, as in any industry, some are happy, some are not, the posts here show exactly that.
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Look guys or gals for that matter, I didn't want or expect envy I was just trying to offer a different point of view to this debate, a very real point of view. HEC who works for a charter outfit, I don't and never implied I did ? We all want things better in the industry and hopefully things will get better in other organisations, I sincere hope. I will leave now and wish you all the very best for the future and a little late prosperous new year.
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The mind speaketh...
2 years into my professional airline career, I left what would've been a guaranteed job for life. I left a £120k per year IT career to fly in the first place with the first job coming 3 years after I gained my type rating.
The point came where the joy and satisfaction gained from flying became totally outweighed by the atrocious pay, rising living costs, the deranged and overly duplicative SOP which I felt was melting away my brain and the fact that they managed to pair me up to fly with complete psychos who could not even trust the autopilot let alone the junior guy on the right. Said airline is full of pilots from a certain macho culture. Macho types if you know them become very jittery when they're not in control. Each psycho came complete with a set of opinions that slated that of the previous psycho resulting in each flying hour of mine being devoted to pandering to the opinions and needs of the dictator in the left seat. Talk about learning from your seniors, all I learnt was that each one of them wanted it done differently. This is not what I imagined this career to be!
I haven't had the best start to my aviation career, I've attended 3 airline interviews, passed two. Never failed an exam or flight test, always completed training with the minimum number of hours yet I've managed to land flying jobs with two of the worst airlines on the planet. The first airline I flew for also had it's share of psychos, mostly ex-mil ones. I know my mindset would be very different if I had gotten a job with a home (UK) based airline in the first place and maybe that's what some of you don't see here. There are cultures, countries and airline SOPs that make this job a really
experience for some of us.
I have an offer this year for a summer contract but I have to be honest in describing the reasons why despite having the potential to earn £120k a year I still want to fly. I have no interest in the uniform, the girls in the back, the travel. I enjoy the technical challenge associated with approach and landing and the view on a nice Summer's day but is this really enough? I think the truth is I cannot bear to watch a £100k investment plus £150k worth of lost earnings go down the drain. I know I continue to flog what is increasingly becoming a dead horse but I refuse to acknowledge it.
I am certain many of you are in the same boat.
The point came where the joy and satisfaction gained from flying became totally outweighed by the atrocious pay, rising living costs, the deranged and overly duplicative SOP which I felt was melting away my brain and the fact that they managed to pair me up to fly with complete psychos who could not even trust the autopilot let alone the junior guy on the right. Said airline is full of pilots from a certain macho culture. Macho types if you know them become very jittery when they're not in control. Each psycho came complete with a set of opinions that slated that of the previous psycho resulting in each flying hour of mine being devoted to pandering to the opinions and needs of the dictator in the left seat. Talk about learning from your seniors, all I learnt was that each one of them wanted it done differently. This is not what I imagined this career to be!
I haven't had the best start to my aviation career, I've attended 3 airline interviews, passed two. Never failed an exam or flight test, always completed training with the minimum number of hours yet I've managed to land flying jobs with two of the worst airlines on the planet. The first airline I flew for also had it's share of psychos, mostly ex-mil ones. I know my mindset would be very different if I had gotten a job with a home (UK) based airline in the first place and maybe that's what some of you don't see here. There are cultures, countries and airline SOPs that make this job a really
experience for some of us.I have an offer this year for a summer contract but I have to be honest in describing the reasons why despite having the potential to earn £120k a year I still want to fly. I have no interest in the uniform, the girls in the back, the travel. I enjoy the technical challenge associated with approach and landing and the view on a nice Summer's day but is this really enough? I think the truth is I cannot bear to watch a £100k investment plus £150k worth of lost earnings go down the drain. I know I continue to flog what is increasingly becoming a dead horse but I refuse to acknowledge it.
I am certain many of you are in the same boat.
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Like has been said, it is not a job it is a way of life. There is no such thing as a standard career as a pilot. It depends on who you work for and which a/c you fly. The glamour days are gone. In UK that was in the days of BA. B.Cal, BY & Monarch. Danair had gone and Air2000 was just an idea. You knew what you were getting and each had their own training programs. Now it is cough up the dosh and take a gamble.
The new Virgin advertisement purports to offer the glamour of yester-year and is so far from the mark as to be very questionable. It's more like a scene from "catch me if you can" ands the Pan Am glory days. Forget it.
The new Virgin advertisement purports to offer the glamour of yester-year and is so far from the mark as to be very questionable. It's more like a scene from "catch me if you can" ands the Pan Am glory days. Forget it.
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Superpilot - you seem like an intelligent guy. I cannot believe the early start to your career path is any surprise to you. You do not need me to tell you that there are countless applicants for a handful of jobs in the UK. Anyone earning the kind of money you were, in my judgement, would have been very ill-advised to commence commercial aviation training. You were clearly in a senior position, and you have had to face the difficulty of going back to being a very junior individual under the control of a difficult boss. Whether you are not easy to work with, or whether it is just the people you fly with, I really do not know. I genuinely wish you well, but you may indeed be advised to go back to your previous career. It will be a very long time indeed, if ever, before you earn that sort of money in today's aviation industry.
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First one important point with reference to some of the earlier posts in the thread, I would never refer to anybody as a numb-skull or a looser etc. or any other remarks, for being a pilot.
But with reference to what B. comments, "If this is what you are doing, then you are not doing the job"
I have to strongly disagree, I do not consider myself super-human, or to be extraordinary in any sort of way. But during normal operations, there are 3 main periods of work load, the departure, the system overview and preparation for approach, and the approach itself. The time of this would be on average probably around 50 minutes with regards to high level of attention. With flights being around 180 minutes, this equals to at best high workload for 28% of the time.
SOP's are designed to be repetitive, they are so repetitive when done day in and day out, with 4 sectors a day, it has happen a few times that we can't recall if the various check list have been done for the actual flight, was it this flight, previous flight, I have seen these glitches happen also with very experience captains.
So the share familiarity with SOP's, and the imagination that we have done this so many times, that sometimes we do get complacent.
I would also like to get back to the pipeline idea, where I suggested there should be stricter regulations on the amount of hours to start with an airline, my suggestion was 1500 hours.
Of course FTO's and the airlines do not want this, because it would mean no more chance for the FTO's to sell the dream of a shiny jet. Many seem to disregard this method, however it would be a way to start making the aviation industry more healthy.
At same time I did say programs like BA cadets, Cathay cadet programs etc., would be the only good alternatives to the self-improver route, why B.. said would this be any different?
It is a bit complex to explain, however first with such programs as BA etc., there is a serious and very professional selection procedure from the start. I am not always agree with these methods, but such companies like BA I would assume would have great experience with such, and have competent people doing the selections. The criteria with such selections is always pretty high, and they will have the chance to pick the people they want for their company.
Also the Cadet would not be investing his money on empty promises, but there would be an actual job at the end of the road, which is the goal for everybody.
That the FTO's today, can keep selling the dream, and training people in an already over-saturated market borders to professional negligence.
I would still have the self-improver route, however this would now drastically change the peoples view of the career ahead of them, they would know that there would be no chance to get in with an airline out of flight school and fly a big jet. They would have to try to get other jobs, instructing, towing gliders, charter work etc., to build up their experience and flight skills.
Anybody who says such flying is not useful for your flying career is talking absolute BS.
Todays selections procedure with most LCC is shambolic, it does not take a genius much time to know what questions etc. there might be asked and tested, and the sim sessions can easily be trained in advance too. Today with a little research, there is much information available on various LCC selection procedures.
As in most interviews like this, it's rather the face value and personal character that counts, the tests are often used to differentiate on those who are completely hopeless. It's a lottery, I have seen a lot very good guys not getting jobs, even though they probably was much better then the other candidates.
The problem with LCC selection procedure is that it is money driven, they will rather take a cadet with 250 hours, than an experience pilot with 3500 hours on 737 if that's the companies type. How can this logic add up, is beyond me, oh yes of course, they guy with 250 hours has such much greater personality???
Then the self proclaimed oracle claims : "The safety statistics in both absolute and relative terms have never been as good as they are these days."
In his support of using cadet pilots, what utter nonsense, the safety statistics proves NOTHING!
The aircraft today are very reliable, and in everyday normal routine operations the experience factor does not have such great impact. It would be in the case of some serious occurrence, that the experience level of the pilots would really come in to play.
So the statistics themselves are not very reliable to use as guide for how safe it is to use low experienced pilots today.
However it is for me clear that by creating this natural stepping stone, with 1500 hours, like they did in the USA, you will avoid people looking for a quick shiny dream, it will be a gradual process, which will benefit the whole industry.
Of course for the airlines, they will not be happy with it, because they will have search for people with a bit more requirements to life, than a bottle of wine and bed under a bridge in a sleeping bag!
"Just a short note to the stats regarding experience:
The finding that flight experience has a protective effect against the risk of crash involvement is consistent with previous studies. In a case-control study conducted among commuter air carrier and air taxi pilots, Li and Baker (25) found that the risk of crash involvement decreases in a nonlinear fashion as total flight time increases. The safety benefit of total flight time is most pronounced in the early, experience-building stage. When total flight time reaches a certain threshold, the marginal benefit diminishes. This nonlinear relation between flight experience and safety performance has been documented in studies involving different pilot groups and using different research designs"
Now my main reason for this suggestion is not just about safety, but rather to get the industry as a whole more healthy, creating less oversupply.
Another point with many LCC, there is a serious lack of experienced people within the ops and administration departments, many LCC looks to save money over the whole specter, ending up with people in various roles in the company that are not fit for the job, have no experience, and borders on incompetence.
There is a lack of strategical thinking, valuing people, and it is natural when they hire people with little or no experience. This creates frustration and annoyance, to be working for people that have very little knowledge of how to do their job, resolve the problems ahead, and totally lack leadership.
As Superpilot says in one post, there is a total lack of leadership skills amongst many inside and outside the flight deck.
This incompetence also borders on the stupid, when somebody tells me, I don't understand why the pilots are so ungrateful, they just leave the company without notice, it is not correct etc., well think a little, maybe there is something the company should do to address this aspect.
But they are so concerned about keeping costs down, that they loose the big picture. Sometimes to make success in business, you need to invest in people, these people are your image to the outside world. If you want their loyality, you need to show them that you value them, and that does not mean using East German STASI tactics to spy and back-stab and lie about your colleagues.
Bealzebub, a few things you should know, I know sometimes you have many good and valid points, sometimes you write a lot about very little, and of course you love to dig in my history, however few things, we humans evolve with experience, and so have I done.
I am in much closer contact to this reality than you are, even though you can come with lot's of explanations about the current state, and that magical castle is not available for everyone.
I don't have a problem with understanding this, most can accept we work ourselves up from the dungeons of darkness. But even in that dungeon of darkness there should be some light, something that justifies that you have the responsibility for + 200 lives in your hand. And that unless you report in half dead sick, you will be loosing your pay and investigated to see if you was really ill or not!
Of course your pay should not bare any relevance to what you have spent on your training, for most close to 100.000 euro or more.
You are working in a company that probably have relative good standards, and good ethos, and you can not comprehend the frustration shared by very many.
As you say, very few will have the pleasure to experience those kind of conditions. My point is that we are not all looking to be in the top bracket, but please give us a chance to survive and live a little.
It has to be repeated again, to many pilots I have seen are just system monitors, pushing certain buttons, going trough the motions of the SOP's demands - like a robot day after day after day after day.
Of course on certain days, with various nasty weather conditions they earn they pay, and get to have maybe more stress then they would appreciate. But end of a day of up to 12 - 13 hours, the biggest fight is how to stay awake!
Artie Fufkin - you do not have a clue, it is all about personal experience, all we can do is do our best, and hope for the best - I don't believe you with your "sunshine background" really have much knowledge about this situation. Than again I do not neither envy you or begrudge you for simply being ignorant, as your situation can not be compared to what many are experiencing in 2013 / 14. Yes it's true, in one month I took holiday, stayed at home and did my own old business, and this was the pretty close to the figure I made.
So when the s... piles up high enough in front of me, and I see nothing more positive left, I guess I will just leave midway during turnaround somewhere in Europe, and catch a fast train home!
For me personally, I would be happy to work full time summer season, and rest of the year I could be part time, shining of my boat on my off days.
I contrary to many others also value my free time, time is money, but many companies want to own all your time, and give you the privilege to have 6 - 7 days off a month. If you want to own my time, pay me for it, that's what I say. But to many people are accepting BS contracts - because we are all led to believe this is the way to the golden goose!
Also the mentality of different regions of the world is very different, and from more similar cultures are better. Imagine sitting on a 2x 5 hour flight, where every 10 minutes you sit wondering if the other pilot is alive or not! And if you try to do your own flight, there are only noise and barks of commands, NO NO NO, just leave the AP / AT and let aircraft follow its own profile, sweet and fun, and of course what joyous day.
So for some who say, I must be a nightmare to have in the LHS, you can't imagine the nightmares some of us FO's get to see in the RHS.
The joy of getting back home to UK and European civilization again, can not be described enough.
This is all again back to the management and how a company wishes to operate and tolerate. There is an intolerable attitude on many levels, and add a fear factor of trust nobody - it's pretty great working conditions and gives of course a great pleasure to live and work under such conditions, so yes, some of you sitting in your golden castle, only know a small part of the reality, and pretend you can come with all the answers.
For many, the only way to have a half ok life, is that they have second jobs etc., if that is the way pilot's want to go in the future, then I say good luck, and good riddance to the industry, as it is heading towards a very dark and dangerous place.
Of course there plenty of us numbskulls who accepts this conditions with pleasure, and would give more than half our body to get these jobs, I even met very experienced guys desperate for these jobs, but wait, until these guys have been more than 18 months in these companies, and go and ask them what they think about their jobs, and the life of being a pilot, and what prospects they might have, even after several thousands of hours on 737 or A32x - not a pretty sight, than again as I said before, lower your expectations, the companies will make sure you get exactly what they feel you deserve - yes dear colleagues of mine, it is a disgrace!
But with reference to what B. comments, "If this is what you are doing, then you are not doing the job"
I have to strongly disagree, I do not consider myself super-human, or to be extraordinary in any sort of way. But during normal operations, there are 3 main periods of work load, the departure, the system overview and preparation for approach, and the approach itself. The time of this would be on average probably around 50 minutes with regards to high level of attention. With flights being around 180 minutes, this equals to at best high workload for 28% of the time.
SOP's are designed to be repetitive, they are so repetitive when done day in and day out, with 4 sectors a day, it has happen a few times that we can't recall if the various check list have been done for the actual flight, was it this flight, previous flight, I have seen these glitches happen also with very experience captains.
So the share familiarity with SOP's, and the imagination that we have done this so many times, that sometimes we do get complacent.
I would also like to get back to the pipeline idea, where I suggested there should be stricter regulations on the amount of hours to start with an airline, my suggestion was 1500 hours.
Of course FTO's and the airlines do not want this, because it would mean no more chance for the FTO's to sell the dream of a shiny jet. Many seem to disregard this method, however it would be a way to start making the aviation industry more healthy.
At same time I did say programs like BA cadets, Cathay cadet programs etc., would be the only good alternatives to the self-improver route, why B.. said would this be any different?
It is a bit complex to explain, however first with such programs as BA etc., there is a serious and very professional selection procedure from the start. I am not always agree with these methods, but such companies like BA I would assume would have great experience with such, and have competent people doing the selections. The criteria with such selections is always pretty high, and they will have the chance to pick the people they want for their company.
Also the Cadet would not be investing his money on empty promises, but there would be an actual job at the end of the road, which is the goal for everybody.
That the FTO's today, can keep selling the dream, and training people in an already over-saturated market borders to professional negligence.
I would still have the self-improver route, however this would now drastically change the peoples view of the career ahead of them, they would know that there would be no chance to get in with an airline out of flight school and fly a big jet. They would have to try to get other jobs, instructing, towing gliders, charter work etc., to build up their experience and flight skills.
Anybody who says such flying is not useful for your flying career is talking absolute BS.
Todays selections procedure with most LCC is shambolic, it does not take a genius much time to know what questions etc. there might be asked and tested, and the sim sessions can easily be trained in advance too. Today with a little research, there is much information available on various LCC selection procedures.
As in most interviews like this, it's rather the face value and personal character that counts, the tests are often used to differentiate on those who are completely hopeless. It's a lottery, I have seen a lot very good guys not getting jobs, even though they probably was much better then the other candidates.
The problem with LCC selection procedure is that it is money driven, they will rather take a cadet with 250 hours, than an experience pilot with 3500 hours on 737 if that's the companies type. How can this logic add up, is beyond me, oh yes of course, they guy with 250 hours has such much greater personality???
Then the self proclaimed oracle claims : "The safety statistics in both absolute and relative terms have never been as good as they are these days."
In his support of using cadet pilots, what utter nonsense, the safety statistics proves NOTHING!
The aircraft today are very reliable, and in everyday normal routine operations the experience factor does not have such great impact. It would be in the case of some serious occurrence, that the experience level of the pilots would really come in to play.
So the statistics themselves are not very reliable to use as guide for how safe it is to use low experienced pilots today.
However it is for me clear that by creating this natural stepping stone, with 1500 hours, like they did in the USA, you will avoid people looking for a quick shiny dream, it will be a gradual process, which will benefit the whole industry.
Of course for the airlines, they will not be happy with it, because they will have search for people with a bit more requirements to life, than a bottle of wine and bed under a bridge in a sleeping bag!
"Just a short note to the stats regarding experience:
The finding that flight experience has a protective effect against the risk of crash involvement is consistent with previous studies. In a case-control study conducted among commuter air carrier and air taxi pilots, Li and Baker (25) found that the risk of crash involvement decreases in a nonlinear fashion as total flight time increases. The safety benefit of total flight time is most pronounced in the early, experience-building stage. When total flight time reaches a certain threshold, the marginal benefit diminishes. This nonlinear relation between flight experience and safety performance has been documented in studies involving different pilot groups and using different research designs"
Now my main reason for this suggestion is not just about safety, but rather to get the industry as a whole more healthy, creating less oversupply.
Another point with many LCC, there is a serious lack of experienced people within the ops and administration departments, many LCC looks to save money over the whole specter, ending up with people in various roles in the company that are not fit for the job, have no experience, and borders on incompetence.
There is a lack of strategical thinking, valuing people, and it is natural when they hire people with little or no experience. This creates frustration and annoyance, to be working for people that have very little knowledge of how to do their job, resolve the problems ahead, and totally lack leadership.
As Superpilot says in one post, there is a total lack of leadership skills amongst many inside and outside the flight deck.
This incompetence also borders on the stupid, when somebody tells me, I don't understand why the pilots are so ungrateful, they just leave the company without notice, it is not correct etc., well think a little, maybe there is something the company should do to address this aspect.
But they are so concerned about keeping costs down, that they loose the big picture. Sometimes to make success in business, you need to invest in people, these people are your image to the outside world. If you want their loyality, you need to show them that you value them, and that does not mean using East German STASI tactics to spy and back-stab and lie about your colleagues.
Bealzebub, a few things you should know, I know sometimes you have many good and valid points, sometimes you write a lot about very little, and of course you love to dig in my history, however few things, we humans evolve with experience, and so have I done.
I am in much closer contact to this reality than you are, even though you can come with lot's of explanations about the current state, and that magical castle is not available for everyone.
I don't have a problem with understanding this, most can accept we work ourselves up from the dungeons of darkness. But even in that dungeon of darkness there should be some light, something that justifies that you have the responsibility for + 200 lives in your hand. And that unless you report in half dead sick, you will be loosing your pay and investigated to see if you was really ill or not!
Of course your pay should not bare any relevance to what you have spent on your training, for most close to 100.000 euro or more.
You are working in a company that probably have relative good standards, and good ethos, and you can not comprehend the frustration shared by very many.
As you say, very few will have the pleasure to experience those kind of conditions. My point is that we are not all looking to be in the top bracket, but please give us a chance to survive and live a little.
It has to be repeated again, to many pilots I have seen are just system monitors, pushing certain buttons, going trough the motions of the SOP's demands - like a robot day after day after day after day.
Of course on certain days, with various nasty weather conditions they earn they pay, and get to have maybe more stress then they would appreciate. But end of a day of up to 12 - 13 hours, the biggest fight is how to stay awake!
Artie Fufkin - you do not have a clue, it is all about personal experience, all we can do is do our best, and hope for the best - I don't believe you with your "sunshine background" really have much knowledge about this situation. Than again I do not neither envy you or begrudge you for simply being ignorant, as your situation can not be compared to what many are experiencing in 2013 / 14. Yes it's true, in one month I took holiday, stayed at home and did my own old business, and this was the pretty close to the figure I made.
So when the s... piles up high enough in front of me, and I see nothing more positive left, I guess I will just leave midway during turnaround somewhere in Europe, and catch a fast train home!
For me personally, I would be happy to work full time summer season, and rest of the year I could be part time, shining of my boat on my off days.
I contrary to many others also value my free time, time is money, but many companies want to own all your time, and give you the privilege to have 6 - 7 days off a month. If you want to own my time, pay me for it, that's what I say. But to many people are accepting BS contracts - because we are all led to believe this is the way to the golden goose!
Also the mentality of different regions of the world is very different, and from more similar cultures are better. Imagine sitting on a 2x 5 hour flight, where every 10 minutes you sit wondering if the other pilot is alive or not! And if you try to do your own flight, there are only noise and barks of commands, NO NO NO, just leave the AP / AT and let aircraft follow its own profile, sweet and fun, and of course what joyous day.
So for some who say, I must be a nightmare to have in the LHS, you can't imagine the nightmares some of us FO's get to see in the RHS.
The joy of getting back home to UK and European civilization again, can not be described enough.
This is all again back to the management and how a company wishes to operate and tolerate. There is an intolerable attitude on many levels, and add a fear factor of trust nobody - it's pretty great working conditions and gives of course a great pleasure to live and work under such conditions, so yes, some of you sitting in your golden castle, only know a small part of the reality, and pretend you can come with all the answers.
For many, the only way to have a half ok life, is that they have second jobs etc., if that is the way pilot's want to go in the future, then I say good luck, and good riddance to the industry, as it is heading towards a very dark and dangerous place.
Of course there plenty of us numbskulls who accepts this conditions with pleasure, and would give more than half our body to get these jobs, I even met very experienced guys desperate for these jobs, but wait, until these guys have been more than 18 months in these companies, and go and ask them what they think about their jobs, and the life of being a pilot, and what prospects they might have, even after several thousands of hours on 737 or A32x - not a pretty sight, than again as I said before, lower your expectations, the companies will make sure you get exactly what they feel you deserve - yes dear colleagues of mine, it is a disgrace!
Last edited by truckflyer; 10th Jan 2014 at 00:50.
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The irony is that the senior position gained in my past career is owed to the fact that there was a major downturn in the aviation industry. It wasn't a choice but it's defined what I am today.
Thanks
Thanks
Last edited by Superpilot; 10th Jan 2014 at 07:35.
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Truckflyer (and all of the various incarnations of username that you have used before.) This has been a recurring theme since day one. No matter what anybody says to you, if it doesn't fit in with your narrow viewpoint of the world, you simply launch into one of your "poor me" tirades. You did this when you were training, you did this when you were looking for a job, you did this when you found one. You did the same when you started work, and now surprisingly unhappy with your lot, you are back doing it again!
Fine! Tell it as you see it. However you were offered plenty of advice over the years which you decided to ignore. That isn't my fault. It isn't anyone else's fault. Your choices are your decision. If long winded whining sessions on here are therapeutic, then they must serve a useful purpose. It was you, not me, that proclaimed that your chief pilot was already telling you to "wind your neck in" when you had only been in employment for 10 minutes. I wonder why? You shout from the rooftops how "shambolic" training, selection procedures, cadets, regulations, and almost everything else is, ad nauseum. Hardly surprising when you refused to listen to anything other than your own opinion and often tortured logic, year in and year out.
If you don't like it, then find something better. If you can't do that, then consider going to back to training tigers or flogging watches or whatever brings in the big bucks for you. I don't think I have ever read the tortured ministrations of somebody so singularly unhappy with their lot, as you seem to have displayed on these forums, and for such a long time.
I cannot decide whether these ranting replies are a justification for a decision you are about to make, or are having made for you? However I can tell you that for all the realities, for many young pilots (and old ones) there are still good careers to be found. So no, it isn't a disgrace. However for the X-factor generation of Getta licence, wanna Job, reality is often going to be messy. You can't always avoid the pitfalls, but being in pure denial about them cannot be the best travel plan.
You ask a question and now you have answered it yourself. Mere rhetoric, and no different from almost every other post since you started training.
Fine! Tell it as you see it. However you were offered plenty of advice over the years which you decided to ignore. That isn't my fault. It isn't anyone else's fault. Your choices are your decision. If long winded whining sessions on here are therapeutic, then they must serve a useful purpose. It was you, not me, that proclaimed that your chief pilot was already telling you to "wind your neck in" when you had only been in employment for 10 minutes. I wonder why? You shout from the rooftops how "shambolic" training, selection procedures, cadets, regulations, and almost everything else is, ad nauseum. Hardly surprising when you refused to listen to anything other than your own opinion and often tortured logic, year in and year out.
If you don't like it, then find something better. If you can't do that, then consider going to back to training tigers or flogging watches or whatever brings in the big bucks for you. I don't think I have ever read the tortured ministrations of somebody so singularly unhappy with their lot, as you seem to have displayed on these forums, and for such a long time.
I cannot decide whether these ranting replies are a justification for a decision you are about to make, or are having made for you? However I can tell you that for all the realities, for many young pilots (and old ones) there are still good careers to be found. So no, it isn't a disgrace. However for the X-factor generation of Getta licence, wanna Job, reality is often going to be messy. You can't always avoid the pitfalls, but being in pure denial about them cannot be the best travel plan.
You ask a question and now you have answered it yourself. Mere rhetoric, and no different from almost every other post since you started training.
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This is no poor me tirade, I don't have issue with this, there is no self-pity in my eyes. I am actually one of the few that have been lucky, most will not achieve this.
Besides there are some things in your post, that you are referring to that I have not a clue what is about, whatever that is, think you are mixing me up with someone else.
Still matter of fact is that the industry is in serious decline, and look around yourself, unless you are in one of the few companies left with fair conditions, there is not much left to smile about.
Now I am in the lucky situation that I can make double captain salary working as a FO part time, if I chose to do that, however most are not that fortunate!
A quick question, you seem to have many theories of why everything is like it is, but you don't seem to have much to say about how it could improve, you prefer just to go with the flow, whatever happens will happen, regardless - so pilots might as well just cave in, and accept that the job is continuing it's massive downward spiral for the majority, while there remain a few privileged that can gloat of their 6 figure salaries.
Than again 6 figure salaries are also relative, I mean 6 figure salaries in Brazil, is not exactly the same as a 6 figure salary in the UK or EU land.
However these few, just need to wait until they also have to bite the bullet, look at SAS, Austrian etc.
I would prefer some progressive thoughts, instead of the constant hamster wheel replies from certain posters!
Do you honestly think I am some kind of ****, who have against all odds achieved what I have achieved in relative short time? Seriously, some seem hellbent on killing the topic, instead moving forward, or is it definitive, we accept it is doom and gloom!
Besides there are some things in your post, that you are referring to that I have not a clue what is about, whatever that is, think you are mixing me up with someone else.
Still matter of fact is that the industry is in serious decline, and look around yourself, unless you are in one of the few companies left with fair conditions, there is not much left to smile about.
Now I am in the lucky situation that I can make double captain salary working as a FO part time, if I chose to do that, however most are not that fortunate!
A quick question, you seem to have many theories of why everything is like it is, but you don't seem to have much to say about how it could improve, you prefer just to go with the flow, whatever happens will happen, regardless - so pilots might as well just cave in, and accept that the job is continuing it's massive downward spiral for the majority, while there remain a few privileged that can gloat of their 6 figure salaries.
Than again 6 figure salaries are also relative, I mean 6 figure salaries in Brazil, is not exactly the same as a 6 figure salary in the UK or EU land.
However these few, just need to wait until they also have to bite the bullet, look at SAS, Austrian etc.
I would prefer some progressive thoughts, instead of the constant hamster wheel replies from certain posters!
Do you honestly think I am some kind of ****, who have against all odds achieved what I have achieved in relative short time? Seriously, some seem hellbent on killing the topic, instead moving forward, or is it definitive, we accept it is doom and gloom!
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truckflyer
2 solutions
buy lots of lottery tickets/change career
I am so used to my expectations being unfulfilled in this industry that I did something really radical. . . . . . I opened my eyes, & I looked at the rest of the world outside of the world of aircraft driving.
And, guess what ? the rest of the world (unless you are into politics/financing/property scams . . .well, certainly in Spain usually all 3 simultaneously seems to be best) is being anally penetrated as roughly as us.
I love flying, but am woefully dissapointed in the general level of respect this profession commands. The general "prostituting" of ourselves that P2F etc etc has promoted this last 15 years has certainly done nothing to give cause for respect, but the seeds have been sown many years ago.
How many companies I have worked for where most pilots were pathetic little self serving mice.
Teamwork/leadership/good moral character . . .Yeah, great "keywords" for your BA interview, but, regretably when you try to translate it into a"real world" situation, encompassing sticking together to object to & reject ridiculous management propositions , pilots in general are "chocolate teapots".
Inbetween this, & the invariable influence of a management/Union that are intertwined together in a "trusting partnership" that includes the dubious synergy of enjoying a pint in the "lodge", is it any wonder that we have (as an industry) just sat back & watched ourselves being shafted ever deeper each year.
Thank Christ I do STILL actually enjoy the task of taking a piece of tin from A to B, there is nothing much else in our profession I could commend to any potential entrant.
2 solutions
buy lots of lottery tickets/change career
I am so used to my expectations being unfulfilled in this industry that I did something really radical. . . . . . I opened my eyes, & I looked at the rest of the world outside of the world of aircraft driving.
And, guess what ? the rest of the world (unless you are into politics/financing/property scams . . .well, certainly in Spain usually all 3 simultaneously seems to be best) is being anally penetrated as roughly as us.
I love flying, but am woefully dissapointed in the general level of respect this profession commands. The general "prostituting" of ourselves that P2F etc etc has promoted this last 15 years has certainly done nothing to give cause for respect, but the seeds have been sown many years ago.
How many companies I have worked for where most pilots were pathetic little self serving mice.
Teamwork/leadership/good moral character . . .Yeah, great "keywords" for your BA interview, but, regretably when you try to translate it into a"real world" situation, encompassing sticking together to object to & reject ridiculous management propositions , pilots in general are "chocolate teapots".
Inbetween this, & the invariable influence of a management/Union that are intertwined together in a "trusting partnership" that includes the dubious synergy of enjoying a pint in the "lodge", is it any wonder that we have (as an industry) just sat back & watched ourselves being shafted ever deeper each year.
Thank Christ I do STILL actually enjoy the task of taking a piece of tin from A to B, there is nothing much else in our profession I could commend to any potential entrant.
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In Ryanair, anyone opting for Line Training Captain /TRE etc certainly paid own transport to training location, & own hotel. I imagine that the "cost" of upgrade to Capt (thinking particularly Sim ) is probably borne by the Candidate. I joined as a Capt so don't know 1st hand, but would be shocked if the "promotion" bore any cost to the company.
Regretably, I think that the day you dread to speak of has already arrived, & the cream on the cake is that a "new" Capt in FR, will in fact earn no more than he had as an FO on an "old Brookfield Contract", he has merely purchased a more effective "get out of jail card".
Regretably, I think that the day you dread to speak of has already arrived, & the cream on the cake is that a "new" Capt in FR, will in fact earn no more than he had as an FO on an "old Brookfield Contract", he has merely purchased a more effective "get out of jail card".
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Thanks, I didn't realise things had sunk to that level yet. I still enjoy the job but I hate the industry. Just working on a plan to get out early, while I still have my health, family etc. I really pity those starting out now and hope that people think twice before paying to fly.