Becoming a pilot & Aviation Industry in 2014 - a disgrace?
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Now that's the aviation today. Airplanes are getting more automated, making our (pilots) life lot easier, but those who spend their 80% of flight time doing nothing not only would get their payment for nothing they'd be a real threat for aviation. Can you imagine the traffic nowadays. You've got to be aware of situation all the time. Just like an anecdote "wife asking-what's it like to be a pilot, what do you do? He's answering" You make a coffee, right?you put the pot on the fire and watch until it boils,now imagine I'm putting 8pots on the fire and keep watching them for the next 8hours
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I am closer to the end of my aviation career than the beginning of it and have enjoyed the greater part of my career. However, I would do everything in my power to discourage any young person from entering the industry nowadays - unless via a cadetship with a flag carrier - and even then with caution.
It is not the job it once was. Unfortunately, by the time the new joiner realises this they are trapped into expensive bonds, p2f agreements etc and are invariably too old to start again in another career.
I'm not at all bitter and still enjoy my role in today's aviation industry but I would not like to be starting out in it today.
It is not the job it once was. Unfortunately, by the time the new joiner realises this they are trapped into expensive bonds, p2f agreements etc and are invariably too old to start again in another career.
I'm not at all bitter and still enjoy my role in today's aviation industry but I would not like to be starting out in it today.
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As with any profession people have to do their research and make informed decisions. Aviation today is at best a gamble, except that and live with the decisions after placing your bets. Yes, the rules of the game in this industry are unique, but we don't make the rules and for sure they won't change, too much hot air and nonsense talked about legislation, Christ it takes 20 yrs to decide where to build a new runway let alone deal with the nitty gritty of employment conditions etcetera.
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I think too much is made of the fact that you have to spend ex amounts of thousands to get qualified and land a job. Flying has never been a poor mans career choice, you have always (apart from the ones who have gone via the military route or have been fully sponsored in the decades gone by) needed access to money to get there.
It is a vocational career which getting a job requires a great deal of dedication and hard work, to constantly think of negatives about the job shows you have made the wrong choice by getting in. If you go on the forum of more or less every profession you will get the same sort of complaints that the job has gone down hill, its not just aviation its in all forms of work. But unfortunately that isn't going to change its really just the way things have gone.
Also bear in mind what some people have to do for a living, working in a warehouse, stocking shelves, cleaning toilets, then maybe you will realise that everyone who can fly for a living is fortunate, yes it is a job at the end of the day but it is a greater job than most have.
It is a vocational career which getting a job requires a great deal of dedication and hard work, to constantly think of negatives about the job shows you have made the wrong choice by getting in. If you go on the forum of more or less every profession you will get the same sort of complaints that the job has gone down hill, its not just aviation its in all forms of work. But unfortunately that isn't going to change its really just the way things have gone.
Also bear in mind what some people have to do for a living, working in a warehouse, stocking shelves, cleaning toilets, then maybe you will realise that everyone who can fly for a living is fortunate, yes it is a job at the end of the day but it is a greater job than most have.
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I basically agree with the initial post.
A great part of the job is doing either nothing or something you have done a zillion times before.
Most of the guys who deny that do get it mixed up imho, I am not saying it is an easy job, far from it. But we have to face the fact that the most challenging days are those either in the sim or during line checks, and the odd bad weather day. Rest is repetitive routine.
Additionally,most of the " intellectual " challenges we face is de facto learning by heart some idiotic numbers, totally fabricated useless nerd-bs by the usual aerosexuals every company has in their training departments.
All that interupted by the same small-talk, same gossip, same mediocre hotels, same same same..
That is flying today.
A great part of the job is doing either nothing or something you have done a zillion times before.
Most of the guys who deny that do get it mixed up imho, I am not saying it is an easy job, far from it. But we have to face the fact that the most challenging days are those either in the sim or during line checks, and the odd bad weather day. Rest is repetitive routine.
Additionally,most of the " intellectual " challenges we face is de facto learning by heart some idiotic numbers, totally fabricated useless nerd-bs by the usual aerosexuals every company has in their training departments.
All that interupted by the same small-talk, same gossip, same mediocre hotels, same same same..
That is flying today.
So now it's an alternative to shelf stacking? Yes, count your blessings!
I think a lot of people cling to the illusion because it defines them.
They'd be nothing if they didn't have that 'Big Job at The Airport' and the Gold Stripes to swagger around with (even while being played for fools by their bosses). Aerosexuals indeed. There's a lot of childish insecurity and self regard in this profession, yet another reason why it is in terminal decline.
In some places shelf stackers are paid more than Bae146 pilots. What's so 'great' about that?
I think a lot of people cling to the illusion because it defines them.
They'd be nothing if they didn't have that 'Big Job at The Airport' and the Gold Stripes to swagger around with (even while being played for fools by their bosses). Aerosexuals indeed. There's a lot of childish insecurity and self regard in this profession, yet another reason why it is in terminal decline.
In some places shelf stackers are paid more than Bae146 pilots. What's so 'great' about that?
Last edited by Killaroo; 7th Jan 2014 at 06:07.
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Ryanair DIDNT start pay to fly.
It was happening before Ryanair I should know I paid half my turbo prop rating for a now defunct Brit airline in the mid 90s......
For those round long enough before Ryanair there has always been an endless supply of wannabee pilots wanting that prized job who would do it for next to nothing.
I was one of them back then. Luckily for me I always got paid to fly an airplane and still am getting paid.
Lets not kid ourselves Ryanair changed anything in that respect.
All Ryanair did was saw an opportunity in the type rating market and took it. Just wish I had thought of it first............
It was happening before Ryanair I should know I paid half my turbo prop rating for a now defunct Brit airline in the mid 90s......
For those round long enough before Ryanair there has always been an endless supply of wannabee pilots wanting that prized job who would do it for next to nothing.
I was one of them back then. Luckily for me I always got paid to fly an airplane and still am getting paid.
Lets not kid ourselves Ryanair changed anything in that respect.
All Ryanair did was saw an opportunity in the type rating market and took it. Just wish I had thought of it first............
Last edited by Say Mach Number; 7th Jan 2014 at 06:20.
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The trend is still worsening terms. The only thing that will change this is terms becoming bad enough that even the dreamers realize that it's not worth it. Then a shortage will ensue and terms will have to come back up again until balance between supply and demand is restored. It's already begun, by people who are realists and can do math. Next up will be the nerds who think flying is a lifestyle. After that the rich kids who realize that even with dad paying everything, what's the point when you'll be working 15hr shifts with minimum rest and sleeping in airport hotels. Chronically fatigued and with a friend-count ticking down fast. Just try flying with some 60-year old captain on his ninth company and fourth wife, still flying to pay child support and scrape together some kind of pension. If you ever need a wake-up call, that'll do nicely.
Personally I'm working to get out and I have what most would call a pretty great job. Good pay, a pension, everything paid for and no commuting. But why are these things considered special? Things that are considered normal in other qualified jobs are somehow "perks" in aviation. It took me six years from setting foot at school to putting on my two airline stripes. It took me two more to lose all interest in the job. Upgrading to captain later helped some, but not for long. If you have any intellectual capacity this job will sandpaper your brain into a dull, one-trick pony machine if you let it.
I've met plenty of seriously sharp people who could do far better for themselves in other sectors or in their own business. Before I started flying I used to labor under the illusion that airline captains are exceptional beings. Upholders of impeccable standards. I've since found plenty who are mediocre, self-serving and small-minded. Eager to sell their dignity and stab their colleagues in the back for personal gains. Foul-mouthed, outspoken racists and chauvinists with the most shallow understanding of regulations, systems and operations. Mr VNAV/LNAV reading his golfing magazine and bitching about immigrants stealing all the women or explaining which cabin crew he would like to do what with.
No sir, not impressed. I have one life to live and I'll be damned if I spend it staring out the window of an airplane for a company trying to turn me into a contracting serf without rights.
Plenty would be willing to replace me for half the money. Plenty more would replace them for half again. Like I said, rock bottom has still not been reached, we are still free falling. Wait for the thud before there's any hope of improvement.
Personally I'm working to get out and I have what most would call a pretty great job. Good pay, a pension, everything paid for and no commuting. But why are these things considered special? Things that are considered normal in other qualified jobs are somehow "perks" in aviation. It took me six years from setting foot at school to putting on my two airline stripes. It took me two more to lose all interest in the job. Upgrading to captain later helped some, but not for long. If you have any intellectual capacity this job will sandpaper your brain into a dull, one-trick pony machine if you let it.
I've met plenty of seriously sharp people who could do far better for themselves in other sectors or in their own business. Before I started flying I used to labor under the illusion that airline captains are exceptional beings. Upholders of impeccable standards. I've since found plenty who are mediocre, self-serving and small-minded. Eager to sell their dignity and stab their colleagues in the back for personal gains. Foul-mouthed, outspoken racists and chauvinists with the most shallow understanding of regulations, systems and operations. Mr VNAV/LNAV reading his golfing magazine and bitching about immigrants stealing all the women or explaining which cabin crew he would like to do what with.
No sir, not impressed. I have one life to live and I'll be damned if I spend it staring out the window of an airplane for a company trying to turn me into a contracting serf without rights.
Plenty would be willing to replace me for half the money. Plenty more would replace them for half again. Like I said, rock bottom has still not been reached, we are still free falling. Wait for the thud before there's any hope of improvement.
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Some ex pilots that quit or that is going to,whats the need to show your enmity. Show some respect to an aviation. You should only blame some people that's making it look the way it is
ulugbek-pilot Some ex pilots that quit or that is going to,whats the need to show your enmity. Show some respect to an aviation. You should only blame some people that's making it look the way it is
Are you really an airline pilot? With that level of English? I think you're pulling our legs!
The trend is still worsening terms. The only thing that will change this is terms becoming bad enough that even the dreamers realize that it's not worth it. Then a shortage will ensue and terms will have to come back up again until balance between supply and demand is restored. It's already begun, by people who are realists and can do math. Next up will be the nerds who think flying is a lifestyle. After that the rich kids who realize that even with dad paying everything, what's the point when you'll be working 15hr shifts with minimum rest and sleeping in airport hotels. Chronically fatigued and with a friend-count ticking down fast. Just try flying with some 60-year old captain on his ninth company and fourth wife, still flying to pay child support and scrape together some kind of pension. If you ever need a wake-up call, that'll do nicely.
Personally I'm working to get out and I have what most would call a pretty great job. Good pay, a pension, everything paid for and no commuting. But why are these things considered special? Things that are considered normal in other qualified jobs are somehow "perks" in aviation. It took me six years from setting foot at school to putting on my two airline stripes. It took me two more to lose all interest in the job. Upgrading to captain later helped some, but not for long. If you have any intellectual capacity this job will sandpaper your brain into a dull, one-trick pony machine if you let it.
I've met plenty of seriously sharp people who could do far better for themselves in other sectors or in their own business. Before I started flying I used to labor under the illusion that airline captains are exceptional beings. Upholders of impeccable standards. I've since found plenty who are mediocre, self-serving and small-minded. Eager to sell their dignity and stab their colleagues in the back for personal gains. Foul-mouthed, outspoken racists and chauvinists with the most shallow understanding of regulations, systems and operations. Mr VNAV/LNAV reading his golfing magazine and bitching about immigrants stealing all the women or explaining which cabin crew he would like to do what with.
No sir, not impressed. I have one life to live and I'll be damned if I spend it staring out the window of an airplane for a company trying to turn me into a contracting serf without rights.
Plenty would be willing to replace me for half the money. Plenty more would replace them for half again. Like I said, rock bottom has still not been reached, we are still free falling. Wait for the thud before there's any hope of improvement.
Personally I'm working to get out and I have what most would call a pretty great job. Good pay, a pension, everything paid for and no commuting. But why are these things considered special? Things that are considered normal in other qualified jobs are somehow "perks" in aviation. It took me six years from setting foot at school to putting on my two airline stripes. It took me two more to lose all interest in the job. Upgrading to captain later helped some, but not for long. If you have any intellectual capacity this job will sandpaper your brain into a dull, one-trick pony machine if you let it.
I've met plenty of seriously sharp people who could do far better for themselves in other sectors or in their own business. Before I started flying I used to labor under the illusion that airline captains are exceptional beings. Upholders of impeccable standards. I've since found plenty who are mediocre, self-serving and small-minded. Eager to sell their dignity and stab their colleagues in the back for personal gains. Foul-mouthed, outspoken racists and chauvinists with the most shallow understanding of regulations, systems and operations. Mr VNAV/LNAV reading his golfing magazine and bitching about immigrants stealing all the women or explaining which cabin crew he would like to do what with.
No sir, not impressed. I have one life to live and I'll be damned if I spend it staring out the window of an airplane for a company trying to turn me into a contracting serf without rights.
Plenty would be willing to replace me for half the money. Plenty more would replace them for half again. Like I said, rock bottom has still not been reached, we are still free falling. Wait for the thud before there's any hope of improvement.
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Contrary to john i am someone who actually started the whole thing for love of flying. And guess what, the flying part of my job i still love. However, i can keep it that way mainly because i reduced my flying hours to around 300 to 400 a year while still earning a six figure salary as an FO (nearly three times the average income in my country). Yes, there is a lot of routine during our normal job, but that is the way with most jobs. I worked at one of the worldwide top biophysical chemistry institutes before as an IT professional and although it cannot get much interesting and diverse than that there was an equal amount of routine in that job, for quite a lot less income and less free time than i do enjoy now.
Yes, i did the whole thing, starting with model airplanes around six years, glider flying at 14 (minimum legal age over here) and then going on to engined flight and finally professional flying. However it is not a bad advise to get an university degree first and some professional experience before starting into the flying world. And of course not just getting a license either. My advise is always to start some program like lufthansa, swiss, BA future pilot and so on and if that doesn't work out do something else and fly for fun. Which usually keeps a lot more fun in flying.
As for worsening T&Cs, i guess that depends on the pilot group in question. I cannot complain at all, since the pilots in my company stood united we could actually increase our T&Cs considerably. Dunno how long it's gonna last of course, if the unmentionable airline from abu dhabi decides to no longer pump money our way all bets are off, but so far there are no signs of that.
Yes, i did the whole thing, starting with model airplanes around six years, glider flying at 14 (minimum legal age over here) and then going on to engined flight and finally professional flying. However it is not a bad advise to get an university degree first and some professional experience before starting into the flying world. And of course not just getting a license either. My advise is always to start some program like lufthansa, swiss, BA future pilot and so on and if that doesn't work out do something else and fly for fun. Which usually keeps a lot more fun in flying.
As for worsening T&Cs, i guess that depends on the pilot group in question. I cannot complain at all, since the pilots in my company stood united we could actually increase our T&Cs considerably. Dunno how long it's gonna last of course, if the unmentionable airline from abu dhabi decides to no longer pump money our way all bets are off, but so far there are no signs of that.
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(oh) Dear John
but really I got into the profession because it's a relatively easy way to earn a six figure salary.
I earn a lot of money, I have nearly ten weeks of annual leave a year.
This is exactly the claptrap that tempts people to ditch a real job and hock themselves up to the eyeballs in order to live the dream! FWIW I've been in aviation nearly 30yrs, have been in the LHS 18yrs and flying B737s in the UK for 14yrs and have never, ever earned a six figure salary or anywhere near.
I'm not alone either, check out Jet2, Flybe, FR, Cityflyer, Loganair etc etc and you'll find plenty of captains with many years experience earning reasonable, but not great money and certainly not a "six figure sum", many struggling to support a family and having to pay for childcare in order to mitigate the shift patterns and allow a second income from the spouse to help pay the mortgage!
Enjoy your good fortune John, but don't labour under the illusion that everybody in aviation is doing as well as you are and don't lead the uninitiated into temptation.
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Well I agree wholeheartedly with those bits John, but the "easy (pardon the pun) way of earning a lot of money" bit just perpetuates the myth!
I fly with a fair few 20 somethings who have gone from 200hrs to total disillusionment in about 18 months and I feel that they should be made aware before they start, by those in the industry that for many people, it isn't easy, and there ain't much money in it either.
I fly with a fair few 20 somethings who have gone from 200hrs to total disillusionment in about 18 months and I feel that they should be made aware before they start, by those in the industry that for many people, it isn't easy, and there ain't much money in it either.
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If you have any intellectual capacity this job will sandpaper your brain into a dull, one-trick pony machine if you let it.
Which is why I am always amazed at the continued high education requirements quoted on application forms. I say this having started in early 70's. The spiel was well educated, highly motivated, a leader, a team player, preferably university with maths and a science, good communicator etc. etc. I was told the airline did not recruit F/O's only future captains. Airline ambassadors and a manager of the whole cheebang. What clap trap as they treated you like school boys, even when captain, and had no interest in any suggestions about how to improve the operation. You were lacking the 'big picture'. And today the same tosh is still heard. No wonder there is such dissolution.
it is still a way to make a good salary and have a decent lifestyle, as long as you go in with your eyes wide open and accept that the job is just not that interesting or challenging.
That's the thing; it is not a career for the love of flying. You do that upside down every weekend at the local club paid for by a proper job. The airline is a way of life that happens to involve travel and be above the ground. It depends on who you work for and what a/c you fly. Even within the same company the way of life is determined by the a/c. and can be altered by choice if you are lucky. But you could end up in a life style you are not suited to. There is no such thing as being a pilot = what I always wanted to be. It depends on too many variables over which you have no control. Your pilot mate who suggested the job might have a luxury swan of a life compared to what your number the roulette wheel threw up. It's an enormous gamble and an expensive one. If you have a flag carrier seat in your hands you can predict reasonably what your future will be and make a reasoned choice. If you are in the open market, be prepared…….
Which is why I am always amazed at the continued high education requirements quoted on application forms. I say this having started in early 70's. The spiel was well educated, highly motivated, a leader, a team player, preferably university with maths and a science, good communicator etc. etc. I was told the airline did not recruit F/O's only future captains. Airline ambassadors and a manager of the whole cheebang. What clap trap as they treated you like school boys, even when captain, and had no interest in any suggestions about how to improve the operation. You were lacking the 'big picture'. And today the same tosh is still heard. No wonder there is such dissolution.
it is still a way to make a good salary and have a decent lifestyle, as long as you go in with your eyes wide open and accept that the job is just not that interesting or challenging.
That's the thing; it is not a career for the love of flying. You do that upside down every weekend at the local club paid for by a proper job. The airline is a way of life that happens to involve travel and be above the ground. It depends on who you work for and what a/c you fly. Even within the same company the way of life is determined by the a/c. and can be altered by choice if you are lucky. But you could end up in a life style you are not suited to. There is no such thing as being a pilot = what I always wanted to be. It depends on too many variables over which you have no control. Your pilot mate who suggested the job might have a luxury swan of a life compared to what your number the roulette wheel threw up. It's an enormous gamble and an expensive one. If you have a flag carrier seat in your hands you can predict reasonably what your future will be and make a reasoned choice. If you are in the open market, be prepared…….