Becoming a pilot & Aviation Industry in 2014 - a disgrace?
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: EU
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
shocked if the "promotion" bore any cost to the company
", nicer to be your own man on the day though, & better on the CV. . . see it for what it is, & GTFOOT ? ("get the flip out of there" ) 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 189
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Threads like this are important to provide a reality check to those with designs of a career in this industry.
Those with an interest in a career as a pilot need an accurate view of the situation with securing work within the industry. This is one of the very few sources of information from all sources. And this source has no financial gain to be had from the potential trainee/cadet.
Alternatively you could just listen to the sales patter from someone who has thousands of reasons to tell you one side of the story......
Those with an interest in a career as a pilot need an accurate view of the situation with securing work within the industry. This is one of the very few sources of information from all sources. And this source has no financial gain to be had from the potential trainee/cadet.
Alternatively you could just listen to the sales patter from someone who has thousands of reasons to tell you one side of the story......
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Polymer Records
Posts: 597
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
truckflyer
2 solutions
buy lots of lottery tickets/change career
2 solutions
buy lots of lottery tickets/change career
In another thread he referred to today's pilots as small-penised, daddy's boy zombies (did I miss anything TF?) so I suspect the real answer is Troll. And a rather verbose one at that.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Somewhere close to me
Posts: 742
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AF; not a troll, and you need to improve your reading skills!
Not 12 x 40 every month, was the peak month 40k, however what does that help? I have no time to enjoy it, getting holiday that conforms with family and my job, is close to impossible!
But it's true, I don't need the lottery, however I work damn hard and have had to sacrifice a lot, and it's clear the flying career can not sustain family life alone, and that is a questionable worry,I have very little debts due to flying, compared to many others, now a loan of £16K.
Not that other months is any of your business, but they would just be between 10 - 20k, if I was focused on it and not flying away all the time.
Regarding the other comment, you have taken ONE sentence out of its context, which is cheap shot, and nearly sounds like a Daily Mail journalist!
I don't hate the job, I dislike the attitude of the industry towards pilots, maybe you AF is the exception or you simply don't care if you get all rolled over and abused, that's your choice.
From responses to the thread, there just a minority of the stooges, and some might have invested interest to maintain the illusion of this career.
As in all walks of life, it depends on how much we value ourselves, obviously not all have equally high regard of themselves, and thereby you get what you think you deserve!
However as soon as the penis factor, look at me in this big jet syndrome wears off, other things like life quality starts to take more importance, unless of course you are one of those who ends up marrying mrs Airbus or Boeing, and abandon wife and children, or what we call family life.
No troll, stopped with that long time ago, as I discovered that was not very progressive or positive.
Don't hate the job, but pilots, not maybe me, but pilots in general deserve better conditions, however it is actually just getting worse and worse. Don't shoot the messenger, and a few regular posters here try to thread the middle way, which is neither one thing or the other.
This is a fact, that most of us know.
I try to tell it as it really is, like it or not, reality kicks in when you sit constantly thousands of miles away from what really matters in life, and you watch the clock goes tick tock, tick tock!
And you AF, don't have a clue what this is about! You are probably one of those Oxford kids, who had mummy and daddy help you with flight training, and you did it at the right time to get in!
Not 12 x 40 every month, was the peak month 40k, however what does that help? I have no time to enjoy it, getting holiday that conforms with family and my job, is close to impossible!
But it's true, I don't need the lottery, however I work damn hard and have had to sacrifice a lot, and it's clear the flying career can not sustain family life alone, and that is a questionable worry,I have very little debts due to flying, compared to many others, now a loan of £16K.
Not that other months is any of your business, but they would just be between 10 - 20k, if I was focused on it and not flying away all the time.
Regarding the other comment, you have taken ONE sentence out of its context, which is cheap shot, and nearly sounds like a Daily Mail journalist!
I don't hate the job, I dislike the attitude of the industry towards pilots, maybe you AF is the exception or you simply don't care if you get all rolled over and abused, that's your choice.
From responses to the thread, there just a minority of the stooges, and some might have invested interest to maintain the illusion of this career.
As in all walks of life, it depends on how much we value ourselves, obviously not all have equally high regard of themselves, and thereby you get what you think you deserve!
However as soon as the penis factor, look at me in this big jet syndrome wears off, other things like life quality starts to take more importance, unless of course you are one of those who ends up marrying mrs Airbus or Boeing, and abandon wife and children, or what we call family life.
No troll, stopped with that long time ago, as I discovered that was not very progressive or positive.
Don't hate the job, but pilots, not maybe me, but pilots in general deserve better conditions, however it is actually just getting worse and worse. Don't shoot the messenger, and a few regular posters here try to thread the middle way, which is neither one thing or the other.
This is a fact, that most of us know.
I try to tell it as it really is, like it or not, reality kicks in when you sit constantly thousands of miles away from what really matters in life, and you watch the clock goes tick tock, tick tock!
And you AF, don't have a clue what this is about! You are probably one of those Oxford kids, who had mummy and daddy help you with flight training, and you did it at the right time to get in!
Last edited by truckflyer; 13th Jan 2014 at 04:52.
I REALLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE
I'm a little puzzled about the use of the word "industry." It is being bandied about here as if the reason manufacturers build planes, airlines sell tickets and passengers fly is to provide pilots with jobs. I think a bit of a rethink is required in order to find the correct perspective. It starts with the passenger. Terms and conditions are NOT in a terminal decline - improvements are incremental and hard won by sober negotiation between employees/unions and management, not by diatribe on anonymous fora. Yes there are airlines where things are less rosy or more rosy but overall it is not a bad JOB, there are good companies out there if you know what you want and are patient and determined enough to get into them. Like most JOBS there are compromises to be made and this is where research comes in before you commit to joining the profession. If you don't like the compromises/benefit balance of the JOB then I am quite sure there will be some other profession which tickles your fancy. In spite of the various compromises the vast majority of my colleagues who I fly with would not do anything else.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
truckflyer = TROLL!
Truckflyer, man up, shut up or go do something else!
5 pages of pathetic, childish whining and like others...lost the will to live through most of your 'War and Peace' posts!
I've been around UK airlines for over 25 years and have had ups and downs like anyone else. I have weeks were I struggle to take it seriously; I meet management and wonder how on earth someone thought you'd be right for that post; i've met gobby, cocky cadets and low-houred pilots, been genuinely shocked at some of the tosh that comes from these kids and have serious concerns about the next generation; would I recommend it to someone? Probably not! And I pity those who have entered this job now or in the last few years...but, I love what I do, I work hard to do it 'right' and to a high standard and I won't be doing anything else...
It is what it is! It's not going to improve over night...live with it, adjust...or simply don't do it if it's making you that un-happy or you can't justify it. Fighting it and moaning is...well, just making you the person you are on here! Because, and I probably speak for a few, folk probably really don't want to work with you anyway!
5 pages of pathetic, childish whining and like others...lost the will to live through most of your 'War and Peace' posts!
I've been around UK airlines for over 25 years and have had ups and downs like anyone else. I have weeks were I struggle to take it seriously; I meet management and wonder how on earth someone thought you'd be right for that post; i've met gobby, cocky cadets and low-houred pilots, been genuinely shocked at some of the tosh that comes from these kids and have serious concerns about the next generation; would I recommend it to someone? Probably not! And I pity those who have entered this job now or in the last few years...but, I love what I do, I work hard to do it 'right' and to a high standard and I won't be doing anything else...
It is what it is! It's not going to improve over night...live with it, adjust...or simply don't do it if it's making you that un-happy or you can't justify it. Fighting it and moaning is...well, just making you the person you are on here! Because, and I probably speak for a few, folk probably really don't want to work with you anyway!
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: A
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Unions (pilots) need to toughen up and fight for their T&C's, fight to have pay to fly First Officer positions banned in their company, fight to have a proper scheduling agreement etc. Only then will things start to improve. I wonder how bad things will get first or if that will ever happen. We are all lead to believe that we should just be grateful to have jobs.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: lancs.UK
Age: 77
Posts: 1,191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We are all lead to believe that we should just be grateful to have jobs.
Truth is, there are too many pilots, too many aircraft and too many flights which are not making a profit.
Wake up!...look at any airlines' investment, see how poor their return on capital is, then ask yourself...
"Would I risk all those millions, when the money would be safer in some Merchant Bank and make a better return"
It's obviously escaped a lot of peoples' attention that most airlines are LOOSING MONEY....they are paying a subsidy to the shiny jet, the Pax and YOU, the crew....they do this in the hope that things will improve and they'll actually make a decent return...but, the longer they run at a loss, the longer it's going to take to recoup that loss , before a profit emerges
Many don't make it!...short memories here? bankrupt airlines with unloved, unwanted aircraft which rapidly deteriorate and depreciate to scrap value.
Yes, the odd operator does make a good profit (all together, now.... RYR !)
but they have been ruthless exploiters of the market place, to get there, keep there and be in good position to cash in when things get better.
All you whingers who think the Aviation industry owes you a living, .....easy solution....club together and buy an airline out of bankruptcy....you'll get an incredible bargain at someone -else's expense, then you can cash in as owners.
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Asia
Posts: 284
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with some coments above.
Truckflyer, why don't you quit flying as career ?
That's a real question Im asking you, because personnally I did it. Or maybe you can't for the moment ? sorry if it's the case...
I have a business now too, and am happier. And I fly of course on weekends (more than before).
I entered the industry a few years ago, and fortunately I was aware enough, and I have seen how the bad joke it was and how it will be...
The T&C will always decline for sure. In a few years, say good bye to Europeans carriers and say hello to Emirates, etc... working as slaves. No thanks.
I still keep my licence though and take news from here, we never know, and if Air France will hire again one day I will applicate but I think the company is sinking very slowly like the Titanic...here it's very bad.
To resume it's simple : if you can't do anything or change anything, then leave it.
Chose the life that you want.
It's easier to stay in a ****ty stuation because we know it than moving on. To move on, it requires courage, cause human being is always worried about the unknown.
Now, if I would recommend this career in 2014 ? no way. It's not a career. It's gipsy lifestyle in a lottery game. You can not climb the ladder with your hardwork only, you need luck and alot.
If people look for a real career where your work is rewarded and if you want to have a minimum control of your career path, then do something else.
Good luck.
Truckflyer, why don't you quit flying as career ?
That's a real question Im asking you, because personnally I did it. Or maybe you can't for the moment ? sorry if it's the case...
I have a business now too, and am happier. And I fly of course on weekends (more than before).
I entered the industry a few years ago, and fortunately I was aware enough, and I have seen how the bad joke it was and how it will be...
The T&C will always decline for sure. In a few years, say good bye to Europeans carriers and say hello to Emirates, etc... working as slaves. No thanks.
I still keep my licence though and take news from here, we never know, and if Air France will hire again one day I will applicate but I think the company is sinking very slowly like the Titanic...here it's very bad.
To resume it's simple : if you can't do anything or change anything, then leave it.
Chose the life that you want.It's easier to stay in a ****ty stuation because we know it than moving on. To move on, it requires courage, cause human being is always worried about the unknown.
Now, if I would recommend this career in 2014 ? no way. It's not a career. It's gipsy lifestyle in a lottery game. You can not climb the ladder with your hardwork only, you need luck and alot.
If people look for a real career where your work is rewarded and if you want to have a minimum control of your career path, then do something else.
Good luck.
Last edited by Greenlights; 13th Jan 2014 at 12:21.
Quote:
We are all lead to believe that we should just be grateful to have jobs.
Because that's the sad reality??
Truth is, there are too many pilots, too many aircraft and too many flights which are not making a profit.
Wake up!...look at any airlines' investment, see how poor their return on capital is, then ask yourself...
"Would I risk all those millions, when the money would be safer in some Merchant Bank and make a better return"
It's obviously escaped a lot of peoples' attention that most airlines are LOOSING MONEY....they are paying a subsidy to the shiny jet, the Pax and YOU, the crew....they do this in the hope that things will improve and they'll actually make a decent return...but, the longer they run at a loss, the longer it's going to take to recoup that loss , before a profit emerges
Many don't make it!...short memories here? bankrupt airlines with unloved, unwanted aircraft which rapidly deteriorate and depreciate to scrap value.
Yes, the odd operator does make a good profit (all together, now.... RYR !)
but they have been ruthless exploiters of the market place, to get there, keep there and be in good position to cash in when things get better.
All you whingers who think the Aviation industry owes you a living, .....easy solution....club together and buy an airline out of bankruptcy....you'll get an incredible bargain at someone -else's expense, then you can cash in as owners.
We are all lead to believe that we should just be grateful to have jobs.
Because that's the sad reality??
Truth is, there are too many pilots, too many aircraft and too many flights which are not making a profit.
Wake up!...look at any airlines' investment, see how poor their return on capital is, then ask yourself...
"Would I risk all those millions, when the money would be safer in some Merchant Bank and make a better return"
It's obviously escaped a lot of peoples' attention that most airlines are LOOSING MONEY....they are paying a subsidy to the shiny jet, the Pax and YOU, the crew....they do this in the hope that things will improve and they'll actually make a decent return...but, the longer they run at a loss, the longer it's going to take to recoup that loss , before a profit emerges
Many don't make it!...short memories here? bankrupt airlines with unloved, unwanted aircraft which rapidly deteriorate and depreciate to scrap value.
Yes, the odd operator does make a good profit (all together, now.... RYR !)
but they have been ruthless exploiters of the market place, to get there, keep there and be in good position to cash in when things get better.
All you whingers who think the Aviation industry owes you a living, .....easy solution....club together and buy an airline out of bankruptcy....you'll get an incredible bargain at someone -else's expense, then you can cash in as owners.
Perhaps pilots should work for nothing - the airlines can't afford the drivers of their multi million dollar money makers!
Fuel is pretty expensive too. Maybe they should get that free also.
And maintenance.
Are you for real?
It's all part of the cost of doing business matey. There's no shortage of poor little rich guys wanting to start airlines. Have you noticed the manufacturers order books are full?
Perhaps they too fall foul of the glamour and 'prestige' of owning an airline. They should think twice before getting into a business they can't make money at.
Just like the foolish drivers should.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: A
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'd sooner see some balance and if that meant fewer companies that have reasonable T&Cs then so be it. Rather that than pay to fly schemes and this continuous race to the bottom.
Sure, that would mean more competition for less jobs but at least they would be real jobs worth having, rather than what we have now, at least for new pilots. For example, type ratings provided in exchange for a bond, a fixed base, a salary, a reasonable roster etc. The selection process could then include other things than the person's ability to borrow vast sums of money. I think that would improve safety.
If the legislators could somehow ban pay to fly schemes then at least it would be a level playing field for all the operators and they would then have to find other ways to save or make money. It ain't going to happen though.
I have seen many very good pilots miss out on a start yet some very dubious individuals buy their way into airline flying. Training these guys has clearly shown me that they are not the best people for the job as far as safety and efficiency is concerned.
Sure, that would mean more competition for less jobs but at least they would be real jobs worth having, rather than what we have now, at least for new pilots. For example, type ratings provided in exchange for a bond, a fixed base, a salary, a reasonable roster etc. The selection process could then include other things than the person's ability to borrow vast sums of money. I think that would improve safety.
If the legislators could somehow ban pay to fly schemes then at least it would be a level playing field for all the operators and they would then have to find other ways to save or make money. It ain't going to happen though.
I have seen many very good pilots miss out on a start yet some very dubious individuals buy their way into airline flying. Training these guys has clearly shown me that they are not the best people for the job as far as safety and efficiency is concerned.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Somewhere close to me
Posts: 742
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
cockney steve :
"most airlines are LOOSING MONEY!"
What a complete nonsense statement, do you really believe that?
What incredible and absolute BS!
On the contrary, the airlines actively try to scam governments, employees, by social dumping. Not paying the applicable taxes for their employees, social benefits etc., they looking for every legal and illegal trick in the book, and the only reason they are getting away with it, is incompetence in to many public offices.
However awareness will eventually change this in the future.
If the airline is not sustainable by paying a decent wage and giving decent T & C's in line with the job that is being done, than I am sorry to say, that airline does NOT deserve to survive.
This is simple business, first balance the books, than see how much profit you can make, than see how much you can slim down on the expenses side to get the most possible profit.
Why is Southwest not having such issues? They were founders of LoCo's?
I subscribe to the view too, that rather have fewer airlines, but that provide decent T & C's, than have loads of companies, not able to survive if they pay all what they legally should do.
The question you must ask yourself, how much does the crew salary represent on an average ticket price?
Say if you as an FO made 5000 Euros a month, before tax, this would per year be 60.000 Euros, which imho is a fair pay for an FO.
Add such extra expenses that this employee will cost the company such as Sims, hotel, extras, let's say with pensions and all, this cost the airline another 20.000 Euros, for social contributions etc, so the FO would be costing the airline 80.000 Euros a year.
If he flies 900 hours a year, and the average sectors are around 2 hours, that makes it 450 sectors in one year. Each sector have an average of 130 passengers - now lets do the maths, what is the cost for the airline for this FO? Simple, 80.000 Euros / 58.500 Pax = 1.36 cents per ticket would it cost the airline to give a pilot a decent pay.
These figures can be studied in places like CAPA, if you care about aviation, instead of just sitting there watching the magenta line!
I revised the maths, you was right, did an error there. Sorry.
However have in mind this also includes the company paying proper social contribution, pensions etc. Of course this is over-simplified, the cost of a flight is a bit more complex. But it shows the flight crew is not the major cost of the flight, and if airlines can't provide a decent pay, because they are no making enough money, maybe it's better they go out of business.
"most airlines are LOOSING MONEY!"
What a complete nonsense statement, do you really believe that?
What incredible and absolute BS!
On the contrary, the airlines actively try to scam governments, employees, by social dumping. Not paying the applicable taxes for their employees, social benefits etc., they looking for every legal and illegal trick in the book, and the only reason they are getting away with it, is incompetence in to many public offices.
However awareness will eventually change this in the future.
If the airline is not sustainable by paying a decent wage and giving decent T & C's in line with the job that is being done, than I am sorry to say, that airline does NOT deserve to survive.
This is simple business, first balance the books, than see how much profit you can make, than see how much you can slim down on the expenses side to get the most possible profit.
Why is Southwest not having such issues? They were founders of LoCo's?
I subscribe to the view too, that rather have fewer airlines, but that provide decent T & C's, than have loads of companies, not able to survive if they pay all what they legally should do.
The question you must ask yourself, how much does the crew salary represent on an average ticket price?
Say if you as an FO made 5000 Euros a month, before tax, this would per year be 60.000 Euros, which imho is a fair pay for an FO.
Add such extra expenses that this employee will cost the company such as Sims, hotel, extras, let's say with pensions and all, this cost the airline another 20.000 Euros, for social contributions etc, so the FO would be costing the airline 80.000 Euros a year.
If he flies 900 hours a year, and the average sectors are around 2 hours, that makes it 450 sectors in one year. Each sector have an average of 130 passengers - now lets do the maths, what is the cost for the airline for this FO? Simple, 80.000 Euros / 58.500 Pax = 1.36 cents per ticket would it cost the airline to give a pilot a decent pay.
These figures can be studied in places like CAPA, if you care about aviation, instead of just sitting there watching the magenta line!
I revised the maths, you was right, did an error there. Sorry.
However have in mind this also includes the company paying proper social contribution, pensions etc. Of course this is over-simplified, the cost of a flight is a bit more complex. But it shows the flight crew is not the major cost of the flight, and if airlines can't provide a decent pay, because they are no making enough money, maybe it's better they go out of business.
Last edited by truckflyer; 13th Jan 2014 at 22:33.
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Stansted
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maths check. 58,500 passengers cost 80,000 Euros. I make that 1.36 Euros per ticket, not 73 cents. But hey, let's just round it up to 5 Euros on the ticket and pay FOs 295,000 Euros.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Somewhere close to me
Posts: 742
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Alycidon; yes of course, it was just a simplified calculation to see the crew cost, if company was to pay properly.
To oversimplify it a bit more, if you not able to work out that cost, say CPT would be double this, you would have 2.72 so a total of 4.08 Euros per flight towards the cost of crew.
The airlines are looking to make it as efficient as possible these days.
The LoCo's however are saving loads because they are cheating society by not paying any social contributions for the people working for them.
These numbers would be for a regular company. The LoCo in Europe would obviously have much lower numbers, to show they are getting more value for their money.
That's the aim of airlines today, to calculate and make sure, the get as much as possible from per employee or contracter.
To oversimplify it a bit more, if you not able to work out that cost, say CPT would be double this, you would have 2.72 so a total of 4.08 Euros per flight towards the cost of crew.
The airlines are looking to make it as efficient as possible these days.
The LoCo's however are saving loads because they are cheating society by not paying any social contributions for the people working for them.
These numbers would be for a regular company. The LoCo in Europe would obviously have much lower numbers, to show they are getting more value for their money.
That's the aim of airlines today, to calculate and make sure, the get as much as possible from per employee or contracter.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: lancs.UK
Age: 77
Posts: 1,191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Very silly post.
Perhaps pilots should work for nothing - the airlines can't afford the drivers of their multi million dollar money makers!
Perhaps pilots should work for nothing - the airlines can't afford the drivers of their multi million dollar money makers!
depreciation, cost of finance etc.....so, even when it's parked up, it's still burning money.
There's no shortage of poor little rich guys wanting to start airlines. Have you noticed the manufacturers order books are full?
so, really, it's an incestuous relationship.....Wannabe pilots prostitute themselves, every bit as much as deluded fools think an airline is the key to the contents of the strongroom.
You actually answer your own statement:-
They should think twice before getting into a business they can't make money at.
Just like the foolish drivers should.
Just like the foolish drivers should.
Apart from your accountancy skills, you've sidestepped the "crew" part of the equasion....so, you pay more to the FO...Captain sees his premium devalued, so he wants a rise....ditto through the cabin crew...suddenly, you're faced with needing an extra 10 bums on seats on EVERY flight,to give the revenue to pay these extra wages. If you really think the true cost of an employee is only 30% on top of their wage, you need to go back to school......been there, done it...try +80% as a minimum and you'll be close average is nearer +100% and the first tome a vindictive ex-employee tries the "industrial tribunal
route, you can start multiplying instead of adding....which is why, belatedly, they've introduced a fee ,to stop vexatious claims.
As I said before...a massive amount of capital and turnover is being punted around for a very small return ...I also said...if it's so damned lucrative, become a boss, then you'll have the penny and the toffee...oh, but wait, that entails risking everything and you don't want to do that, but just want the rewards..... envy!
The LoCo's however are saving loads because they are cheating society by not paying any social contributions for the people working for them.
"most airlines are LOOSING MONEY!"
What a complete nonsense statement, do you really believe that?
What incredible and absolute BS!
What a complete nonsense statement, do you really believe that?
What incredible and absolute BS!
They certainly aren't marching up to Boeing, banging a wedge of cash on the desk and asking for "a couple of those" (OK, maybe some of the Oil-rich countries do!
)They weigh up the cost of offloading present fleet , against the liability incurred in upgrading, versus the more economical fuel-burn and operating savings....upgrading is also a way of persuading the punter to buy a space on one of your flights, instead of the opposition's.
Apart from an Irish operator, a lot of Western airlines have gone, many are in a precarious position...if you think otherwise, why don't you borrow money, just like they do, and get an airline bought? (sorry , the greener grass is a blinkered illusion)
That's the aim of airlines today, to calculate and make sure, the get as much as possible from per employee or contracter.
Yup, welcome to the world of business...wether you're making new "Dreamliners" or plastic dog-turds, the same principle applies, you work your assets!
In your dream world, there would be fewer airlines, fewer aircraft, the job would carry it's former prestige, the Hosties would all be gorgeous and "goers"
the airline would invest a shedload of money in YOUR development, without any security that you wouldn't jump ship as soon as they finished paying for your T/R etc...massive pay, inflation -linked pension......AHHH.
Unfortunately, only the top 10% of the population would be able to afford to fly and there is a large percentage of those , who already have a personal jet.
Net result.....dramatic shrinking of the industry, loss of economy of scale that mass air travel bought in the 60's onwards....what makes you think it wouldn't be you getting chucked on the redundancy scrapheap.
flying is no longer elitist, it's mainstream, utility transport . Like a lot of other professions (solicitor, doctor, teacher, accountant....0 the Proles are allowed in now and the exclusivity has gone forever. suck it up or move out!
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Washington
Age: 43
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't do it
Anyone thinking of starting an atpl please don't, the industry is an embarrassment.
Paying crazy money for training with no guarantee of a job.
Ever smaller salaries which makes paying any loan off a serious problem.
About as glamorous as being a bus driver.
Never being at home at sensible times.
Working more and more hours for decreasing per diems.
Six monthly testing.
Many unlucky guys will have permanent worries if the airline will even survive or wether they will get paid that month.
And finally I can say after 7 years its seriously boring.
My advice is if you are bright enough to pass your ATPL get yourself into the city earn some decent money, get paid to train, go out for big lunches on the company credit card, and if traveling is your thing you will no doubt get plenty of opportunities to do it.
Think very carefully about joining the airline industry it's a decreasing industry with ever shrinking terms and conditions.
Paying crazy money for training with no guarantee of a job.
Ever smaller salaries which makes paying any loan off a serious problem.
About as glamorous as being a bus driver.
Never being at home at sensible times.
Working more and more hours for decreasing per diems.
Six monthly testing.
Many unlucky guys will have permanent worries if the airline will even survive or wether they will get paid that month.
And finally I can say after 7 years its seriously boring.
My advice is if you are bright enough to pass your ATPL get yourself into the city earn some decent money, get paid to train, go out for big lunches on the company credit card, and if traveling is your thing you will no doubt get plenty of opportunities to do it.
Think very carefully about joining the airline industry it's a decreasing industry with ever shrinking terms and conditions.
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 1,279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
most airlines are LOOSING MONEY!
Odd, BA are looking on track to make a £1.5Bn operating profit by 2015. Perhaps I should be working for free to 'help them out' as well.
I'm a professional and demand adequate recompense for the job I do, the unsociable hours and public holidays I work and the working conditions (night flights etc.) I have to endure.
Personally I get well paid so I can put up with it, I've put up with the bottom end as well. If you don't like it then leave, I've got an old flying buddy who is now a NHS manager, he loves it.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Somewhere close to me
Posts: 742
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
cockney steve;
I would rather say it is around 30 - 50%, not 100%.
These companies today are paying you p.... and expect you yourself to pay tax of the little money you get!
And for many, much to many, the profession is not giving even a decent life or lifestyle.
Yes Steve, I do know a thing or 2 or maybe 3 about running a business, and I did not need to go school to learn how. I used my life experience, and I have been very successful within all the business I have done in the past.
I am sitting everyday thinking of how much I am loosing, just to get paid a can of Beans, and it ain't even Heinz! (and loosing is not just about money, but obviously that is also a considerable amount)
There are companies offering good prices to passengers, and good conditions for their staff.
No permanent success will come from putting people in conditions where they can't thrive and be happy.
Short term the shareholders will make many, long term... they will be history.
I would rather say it is around 30 - 50%, not 100%.
These companies today are paying you p.... and expect you yourself to pay tax of the little money you get!
And for many, much to many, the profession is not giving even a decent life or lifestyle.
Yes Steve, I do know a thing or 2 or maybe 3 about running a business, and I did not need to go school to learn how. I used my life experience, and I have been very successful within all the business I have done in the past.
I am sitting everyday thinking of how much I am loosing, just to get paid a can of Beans, and it ain't even Heinz! (and loosing is not just about money, but obviously that is also a considerable amount)
There are companies offering good prices to passengers, and good conditions for their staff.
No permanent success will come from putting people in conditions where they can't thrive and be happy.
Short term the shareholders will make many, long term... they will be history.