Becoming a pilot & Aviation Industry in 2014 - a disgrace?

[SR71]

but I've been in this business for 35 years

&

Career aviation is for numbskulls.

The irony!

Everyone's a wizard in retrospect.

The reason behind the ongoing excess of supply over demand, is inspite of what Hullabaloo suggests, the perception is that the cost:benefit equation is still in favour of making the leap...for a whole host of reasons.

[Killaroo]

If you'd been around 35 years ago, you'd have entered this profession as either an airline Cadet (full training paid by the airline) or as a military pilot (full training paid by the State). There weren't many other options. This was the norm.

Then, you'd have started a career with what is now called a 'legacy carrier' - for there were few others. No LCCs back then. No Michael O'Leary's.

If you were lucky you might have had 20 years flying in that pretty decent environment, before the change set in, around the late 90's.

By that time I had the golden handcuffs on, and with my accumulated seniority I still had a decent lifestyle, even as it all fell apart around me. The junior guys were the ones taking the hammering.

I'm in semi retirement now. This is probably my last year in aviation.
It just amazes me that anyone still wants to get into this job.
I have to put it down to either ignorance or stupidity.

[ulugbek-pilot]

The one should try to understand. How could he/she be so "stupid" like you say, not even having idea about. It's a pity you're finishing your career having such ideas, anyways I wish you to enjoy the rest of your life with your family

[top9un]

smithy

You said...

"I'm not too sure which part of

Firstly, I do not enjoy flying. I wouldn't encourage anyone to get into the industry now

and

For anyone considering getting involved in flying: I still wouldn't recommend starting off now. The risk for the potential reward is too high. The chance of ending up with huge debt and no job is too great.

was unclear..."


It's unclear why you'd be bothering to post on here if you really

do not enjoy flying

however your advice is sound, anyone thinking of paying a large amount of money and spending a considerable period without income for the dubious reward of a job with a Lowcost is quite clearly nuts.

[Alycidon]

Good point topgun, add up the income lost over the 18 months training period assuming £40k pa and you are looking at a loss of £60k pre tax to add to the £90k that you pay the school.

Could be why accountants run the airlines and only mugs fly the aircraft.

[SOPS]

Agree Killaroo, I'm about to say goodbye to this industry after 36 years, why anyone wants to get in to it now is beyond me.

[Bealzebub]

If you'd been around 35 years ago, you'd have entered this profession as either an airline Cadet (full training paid by the airline) or as a military pilot (full training paid by the State). There weren't many other options. This was the norm.

I was, and that isn't accurate. To be fair I don't know where "Sunny Bay" is, but that might well have been the case in that part of the world. In the UK the airline recruitment make up, was satisfied by only a very small proportion of cadets, and even then restricted to less than a handful of airlines. The military leavers filled about a quarter to a third of vacancies, and the rest were all "self improvers" who had worked their way up through the GA/Air taxi/third level airline system. These "self improver" civilian pilots, even 35 years ago, were the bulk of the airline recruitment portfolio.

These days the "cadets" have expanded and squeezed into both of the career change markets, that is military leavers and civil airline career changers. That has made it much harder for either of the two latter groups to find F/O opportunities in any of the prime airlines with their own cadet programmes.

The growth in the last 15 years has been, (and if you peeked behind the hoardings) continues to be, in the cadet programmes. That is why I recommend that todays wanabees look seriously at this market.

Then, you'd have started a career with what is now called a 'legacy carrier' - for there were few others. No LCCs back then. No Michael O'Leary's.

The few cadets would, but the majority would have still worked their way up through the system. Government imposed regulation in those days meant that "low cost" was simply a pipedream to the operators, however there were still many companies that operated on a shoestring line between profit and loss.

It just amazes me that anyone still wants to get into this job.
I have to put it down to either ignorance or stupidity

I fly with cadets who have their type ratings paid for by the airline and they start on a salary of circa £41K basic plus around £10k in allowances. That rises within a year to £51K basic plus £10k in allowances. In other words within a year of joining they are on a salary equating to US$100K (HK$770,000!)"Ignorance?" clearly not! "Stupidity?" I doubt they (or certainly I) would think so! Plus, they have pension schemes, private medical, loss of licence, Permanent health insurance, etc. etc.

Is that going to be the experience of the majority? Certainly not. It isn't going to be the experience of all but a small minority, but the opportunities are still out there, and there are a few better than this. Outside of these schemes there are still the "stepping stone" jobs. There were "stepping stone" jobs 35 years ago. These days the main difference is that a lot of those jobs are now on jet equipment. Using the "stepping stones" to advance a career has always been the norm, however these days it is more difficult to find those stones for all the reasons I have already described.

You can tell people this, and I do. Whether it makes any difference I cannot say. However if you want a fasttrack shot at the big league (without any guarantees,) you need to take a serious look at where that league is recruiting from, and then take a big gulp!

[MTOW410]

Unfortunately our profession is about to be dramatically changed in regards to technological advancements. We will be designed out of the cockpits. There will be one of us that has the sole responsibility to sit there in order to assure the flying public that there still is a human that could potentially take over or influence the machine. Once the generational rotation is accomplished, e.g. time has passed, the new generations will be comfortable with automation, there will most probably be no pilot in large passenger transport airplanes.

I have 35 years to go, I fly commercially for eight years now and I work for a very large major airline. My personal analysis is, that my generation is the last generation to fly two (wo)men crew throughout their career. A vague possibility is that I might even fly single at the end of my career. Therefore I cannot recommend to enter the profession without an additional academic education. That is why I attended university while I was flying commercially (as suggested above). I feel privileged having joined a major airline and having realized the dream (with 35 years to go), but looking ahead at our/my future, our future pilot generations, I see the industry, as some posters above, on a further decline in working conditions and remuneration due to automation and industry cost pressure.

To all 15-25 year olds reading this :-) Do not abandon your dreams because of this post but know that this job will further change..

[ulugbek-pilot]

If it was possible they'd remove people from the cockpit tens of years ago,don't worry,you're not going to be alone in the cockpit not in a passenger plane

[FANS]

We're getting a little lost on the drones debate.

The point is that technology will continue to reduce the core hand flying bit of the job, and the job is and will become more about managing and overseeing systems. Airline flying is safer and cheaper and done a lot more than 30 years ago, and hence this trend will continue.

They key thing is that people go in with their eyes wide open and that the dream of line flying does not turn into a nightmare after 2 years. I think threads like this can help to some extent.

I struggle with where the industry is going for new entrants, but as long as there's airlines offering BA T&Cs, there's a glimmer of light.

My biggest issue is that people still do not recognise that it is a materially different job/environment/£/status etc to joining an airline 25 years ago.

[Jetdriver]

A reminder of the thread title:

Becoming a pilot & Aviation Industry in 2014 - a disgrace?

[Artie Fufkin]

The OP claims to earn £40k a month from other interests, has to commute away from family and quite blatantly hates the job.

If people like him/her decide to continue to do the job, there really is no hope!

[SEAMASTER]

I don't post very often anymore on topics such as this I'm sick and tired of reading about people's woes blaming it all on the industry because they haven't quite reached the dizzy heights they thought they would have when they entered aviation as a pilot. Just to put a little more perspective on things, I work for a UK outfit based where I live and desire to be, I fly both long and short haul, yes three months in summer can be busy but on my current roster I will do 3 short haul trips and a week long haul trip to India earning a vey decent wage in the process for 5 days flying in a month. I do not sit in traffic 5 days a week in rush hour, I take my kids to school almost every day, the only days I don't are when my wife is not working and she wants to take them or I'm working. There are at least 3/4 days in a 7 day week where myself and my wife have the opportunity to go out for lunch and enjoy quality time together, just like we have done today !! Next winter I will put all my winter leave together, 5 weeks of it and probably go to aus on holiday with the family. I have the security of paid schemes such as loss of licence insurance, private health insurance, death in service insurance and a very good company pension £ 1200/ month going in, possibly £1800/month next year and I will probably hit the life time limit of 1,250,000 quite some time before my retirement. The job allows me to do things I really enjoy doing as well ie playing golf, football, buying and selling cars etc. My wife however does sometimes complain that I work less than she does albeit she is only part time working 2 days a week, for a quarter of my pay after tax. So there are jobs like this available in the UK today, yes it is competitive I know but to moan because this hasn't happened to you and to blame it on the "industry" today doesn't wash very well at times. Since I joined my company 250 new pilots now lie below me on the seniority list, why has one of these jobs not become yours ?? I don't know ask yourself ??? I'm not suggesting that my life as a pilot is perfect and i am not writing this with a "look at me, my life is great " attitude. I am fully aware things could change in the future but if you get into the right company you can lead a highly desirable lifestyle in 2014 working as a pilot in the UK, new pilots are joining my company right now !!

[Greenlights]

yep Jetdriver, let's back to the subject...

Personnally I would not say it's a disgrace, but it depends....
Now, when I talk to people or friends during a BBQ or party. When you say you're pilot, some people were more informed and replied to me
"oh, what about the income ? it's low now ? and you work hard like Ryanair ?"
Before when we talked about the job, people think about flag carriers conditions.
NOw, everything is related to Low cost.
Even some friends who are not pilot at all, bought the book about Ryanair by Fletcher.
I would say it's not a disgrace for being pilot BUT it's a disgrace how the industry has become. And accepting such conditions , yes it's a disgrace.
wannabe and cadets are pilots just for making video on Youtube and persuave themselves that they do the "best" job in the world, which is in reality far from that. IN the video, they do not show how mich they pay for uniforms, medical, hotels, food, OPC, LPC, the public transportation from/to airport etc...just nice pictures to make others envious and saying "oh, great video mate! i want to become pilot too".

Pilot is not a disgrace but for sure just a job like any, and in any case not above of others jobs.
I am passionnate but if I had to chose, I would prefer, now, working in the management of an airline than being a pilot.
In a LCC, pilots are just a piece on a chess game... I would prefer being the player than the piece.
Investing such money for being a piece ? no thanks. I'd rather, today, enjoy flying for myself and not for the others. (if we can call it "flying".....).
I had quit and have plans for this reason.
For any wanabe, it's still nice if you go direct in a flag carriers. Otherwise, it's really another aviation and spirit of it.

[Greenlights]

Seamaster, of course there are still good positions.
But the thing is, companies like yours tend to disappear for sure (the TC's).
Your career you're living will not be like this for the new joiners.
Talking about it in present is nosense. The conditions you have are the last one.
A new pilot aiming for your position, need to climb the ladder for 10 or more years (if he can!!!) ? So in the futur how will be the TCs ? certainly not the same.

[Mikehotel152]

i am not writing this with a "look at me, my life is great " attitude. I am fully aware things could change in the future but if you get into the right company you can lead a highly desirable lifestyle in 2014 working as a pilot in the UK, new pilots are joining my company right now !!

I am amazed at how many people in aviation live in a bubble. Seamaster, you are in an enviable position which most of us have no hope of reaching. Even the cadets joining your own airline probably won't. And yet we all fly the same machines in almost identical ways, to very similar standards. Most of us work far harder for less reward.

For every pilot joining an airline such as the one employing Seamaster, maybe 10 or even 20 join operators who will never offer such generous terms to their employees. Even in my 4 years with my current operator, wages for new captains have dropped by 35%.

[Greenlights]

Mikehotel152,
Even in my 4 years with my current operator, wages for new captains have dropped by 35%.

In mine, it was 30% just in one year (the next contract). Seem that 35 or 30% drop is the norm...

[SEAMASTER]

I appreciate the above however new joiners get exactly the same T&C's as I do, same salary scales same everything !!

[Bealzebub]

I am amazed at how many people in aviation live in a bubble.

You would be even more amazed how many people seeking out those bubbles, settle for pumpkins in the hope that a magic wand will make them turn into Cinderella's chariot!

[hec7or]

Since I joined my company 250 new pilots now lie below me on the seniority list, why has one of these jobs not become yours ??

I'm guessing it's because your company probably doesn't recruit that many new pilots.

meantime, EZY and FR will be hoovering up 600 to 700 new recruits between them this year.

your post reads very much like those internet ads scamming people into big earnings while working from home!