Ryanair & Positioning Pilots
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I think the point of the thread is being missed by some, this is not about commuting or the rights and wrongs of it, EASA FTLs etc. It is about pilots commuting in their own time in uniform by suddenly becoming part of the crew.
This allows them to use staff search (explicitly forbidden by the dft unless they are on the gendec as part of the operational crew or as supernumerary crew). If they are using this "loophole" then surely they must travel on the flight deck (can you be a supernumerary pilot in the cabin?) be on the pre departure paperwork at the brief and not just arrive on the aircraft and be added to the crew list just prior to departure AND it must count towards their FTL as they are now on duty and it is therefore a working day. I just don't see how this is legal (not withstanding the "perk" of free travel which I a sure the tax man would be interested in as a benefit in kind).
I am a commuter by choice (GLA - LHR) I have to buy a ticket (staff or full fare) and I have to use passenger search in accordance with dft rules, I would lose my airside pass if I used staff search (my company put out a notice about this last year warning it was a disciplinary offence).
I would be interested to know if any other airlines in Europe and specifically the UK allow their staff to travel in this way.
This allows them to use staff search (explicitly forbidden by the dft unless they are on the gendec as part of the operational crew or as supernumerary crew). If they are using this "loophole" then surely they must travel on the flight deck (can you be a supernumerary pilot in the cabin?) be on the pre departure paperwork at the brief and not just arrive on the aircraft and be added to the crew list just prior to departure AND it must count towards their FTL as they are now on duty and it is therefore a working day. I just don't see how this is legal (not withstanding the "perk" of free travel which I a sure the tax man would be interested in as a benefit in kind).
I am a commuter by choice (GLA - LHR) I have to buy a ticket (staff or full fare) and I have to use passenger search in accordance with dft rules, I would lose my airside pass if I used staff search (my company put out a notice about this last year warning it was a disciplinary offence).
I would be interested to know if any other airlines in Europe and specifically the UK allow their staff to travel in this way.
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A friend of mine who was a dispatcher on Ryanair flights out of a London airport says this commuting is extremely common. Sometimes as common as every other flight, he would have random flight deck crew, always in uniform, come to the departure gate and ask to be put on the loadsheet. They would not count in the TOB in pax paid heads, but they would be in the overall THOB count.
However, they never had any ticketed documentation, only uniform and their airline ID/airside pass.
In order to get airside they therefore went through a staff search channel. This is expressly prohibited at all UK airports unless you are actually on duty and working. These guys commuting are NOT working and are NOT on duty. This is therefore a breach of the DfT rules, unless there has been a discreet agreement made in the background.
An airside pass remains the property of the airport that issued it, can be revoked at any time and does NOT confer rights of access.
Airside IDs are only for use when on duty. These commuters are not on duty, else their commuting trips would count under FTL and they would also be on a ticket (whether full pax ticket or issued by airline for commuting purposes).
If any airport security officer decided to be clever one day, they could well ask these commuting staff if they can prove they are actually on duty and working. They would then be caught out...
However, they never had any ticketed documentation, only uniform and their airline ID/airside pass.
In order to get airside they therefore went through a staff search channel. This is expressly prohibited at all UK airports unless you are actually on duty and working. These guys commuting are NOT working and are NOT on duty. This is therefore a breach of the DfT rules, unless there has been a discreet agreement made in the background.
An airside pass remains the property of the airport that issued it, can be revoked at any time and does NOT confer rights of access.
Airside IDs are only for use when on duty. These commuters are not on duty, else their commuting trips would count under FTL and they would also be on a ticket (whether full pax ticket or issued by airline for commuting purposes).
If any airport security officer decided to be clever one day, they could well ask these commuting staff if they can prove they are actually on duty and working. They would then be caught out...
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I don't pretend to know all the rules and regulations. Duscussion is fine but if you are going to accuse others of illegal commuting then please back up your claim.
If your friend saw pilots in uniform in the cabin then they were probably regular voluntary commuters. I know many of those and as I already tried to explain above, it is not illegal at all nor is there any tax evasion. It is a standard approved written procedure. If you think it is somehow unfair, then ask your company to adopt those rules that so benefit Ryanair and other European pilots.
If your friend saw pilots in uniform in the cabin then they were probably regular voluntary commuters. I know many of those and as I already tried to explain above, it is not illegal at all nor is there any tax evasion. It is a standard approved written procedure. If you think it is somehow unfair, then ask your company to adopt those rules that so benefit Ryanair and other European pilots.
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Last time I went through aircrew security at LGW we had to provide a copy of the sign-in sheet, which was checked against our individual ID's.
I thought I remembered a similar story a couple of years back about STN, so, if Jumpseaters are going through Crew Search I assume a "local arrangement" has been made ? ? I remember this also used to impact heavily on those attempting to access the STN crew room for recurrent ground training which used to be held there (this is a few years ago now though )
In any case, if jumpseat Bods are going through Crew Search day in day out, the fact there are enough little jobsworths in that profession means it sure as hell isn't by accident
I thought I remembered a similar story a couple of years back about STN, so, if Jumpseaters are going through Crew Search I assume a "local arrangement" has been made ? ? I remember this also used to impact heavily on those attempting to access the STN crew room for recurrent ground training which used to be held there (this is a few years ago now though )
In any case, if jumpseat Bods are going through Crew Search day in day out, the fact there are enough little jobsworths in that profession means it sure as hell isn't by accident
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As a 17+ year retiree, I am utterly amazed that aircrew can be required to position on days off. Thank goodness my airline AirUK treated people better than that. I have enjoyed these past 17 years. I doubt that many current pilots suffering under such regimes (in effect, working on “days-off”) can look forward to such a pleasant retirement – many won’t live that long being exhausted by such an unfair lifestyle.
I have to ask: “What is the matter with you people that you placidly accept being treated so badly?”
Jack
I have to ask: “What is the matter with you people that you placidly accept being treated so badly?”
Jack
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Express one international, air contractors ,swift , EAT and the many other company's flying DHL freight have or had the online ticketing system that worked well for a while. There was the comfort knowing you were getting on specific flights to get there.
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Jack,
What is the matter with them?
They have no respect for themselves. When you have no respect for yourself. How are you going to expect others to have any respect for you?
What is the matter with them?
They have no respect for themselves. When you have no respect for yourself. How are you going to expect others to have any respect for you?
Join Date: Jun 2008
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PENKO,
So are you trying to insinuate that I do not know all the rules and regulations? I never claimed to know them 'all'
However, there is one rule that I, as well as all airside pass holders at UK airports know (as it is one of many statements signed on a security interview) which is that it is a very strict DfT requirement that to hold an airside pass that you do NOT use it unless on duty. It appears these commuters are however doing this, and therefore in the absence of any local agreement between Ryanair and the airport operating companies that this is at least in breach of regulations and at worst, what you so hastily liked to defend, could be 'illegal' although what law it breaches is unknown to me. It is more the fact you are breaching DfT requirements so your pass can be suspended, withdrawn and therefore your employment terminated.
First, I never used and never have used, the word 'illegal' so I do not have to back up any claims of what is and isn't legal or illegal. 
I am participating in the discussion here, and my original post was a mere statement of the facts as they stand and how it appears they are being breached.
And lastly I couldn't actually give a monkeys if Ryanair is the only airline doing this or all airlines do this, why should I, I'm not employed by one!
I don't pretend to know all the rules and regulations.
However, there is one rule that I, as well as all airside pass holders at UK airports know (as it is one of many statements signed on a security interview) which is that it is a very strict DfT requirement that to hold an airside pass that you do NOT use it unless on duty. It appears these commuters are however doing this, and therefore in the absence of any local agreement between Ryanair and the airport operating companies that this is at least in breach of regulations and at worst, what you so hastily liked to defend, could be 'illegal' although what law it breaches is unknown to me. It is more the fact you are breaching DfT requirements so your pass can be suspended, withdrawn and therefore your employment terminated.
Duscussion is fine but if you are going to accuse others of illegal commuting then please back up your claim.
I am participating in the discussion here, and my original post was a mere statement of the facts as they stand and how it appears they are being breached.
And lastly I couldn't actually give a monkeys if Ryanair is the only airline doing this or all airlines do this, why should I, I'm not employed by one!
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I doubt that many current pilots suffering under such regimes (in effect, working on “days-off”) can look forward to such a pleasant retirement – many won’t live that long being exhausted by such an unfair lifestyle.
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The pros and cons of 'commuting' is a complete and utter red herring here! These are the issues that will land people neck deep in the brown stuff:
1) Dressing in uniform, and using an airside ID, to access the secure area whilst NOT ON DUTY, is both a security breach and I'm fairly sure, in the UK is breaking the law!
2) Receiving a Benefit in kind, (free travel) without declaring it for tax purposes, is tax evasion.
3) Anyone listed as supernumary crew, is engaged ON DUTY which must count towards FTL limits. Failing to declare such duty time is definitely breaking the law, and is wreckless.
Which category are these FR pilots in?
This can't possibly end well!
These folks are extremely exposed!
1) Dressing in uniform, and using an airside ID, to access the secure area whilst NOT ON DUTY, is both a security breach and I'm fairly sure, in the UK is breaking the law!
2) Receiving a Benefit in kind, (free travel) without declaring it for tax purposes, is tax evasion.
3) Anyone listed as supernumary crew, is engaged ON DUTY which must count towards FTL limits. Failing to declare such duty time is definitely breaking the law, and is wreckless.
Which category are these FR pilots in?
This can't possibly end well!
These folks are extremely exposed!
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Do you know that to be the case? - I am told that is definitely NOT the case (floating 5/5 contractors aside, who just about would have a compliant roster, whether it was a day off or not), - But word I got was; its every night in your own bed - or is it just the contractors who are travelling out of base? What about accomodation/hotac when out of base? - If based crew are actually being REQUIRED to POSITION out of BASE on a day off, then I would agree that it is unacceptable, but Ive never heard of this for based/employed pilots.
I have met Ryanair employee pilots out of base, but it's rare. Company then becomes responsible for accommodation + transportation. I would assume your mate is on a Ryanair contract and thus his experience is 'every night in your own bed'. Contractors are sent all over the place. To clarify, those are contractors with assigned bases being rostered out of another base.
PS. Tried to send you a PM midnight cruiser, if interested could you change the settings to allow you to receive PMs.
Last edited by 172_driver; 11th Jan 2016 at 00:55.
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What Capt Playstation said....
" It DOES work, so, instead of coming on here stirring up something that works pretty well for the hordes of pilots commuting, usually because they cannot get a home base &/or are unwilling to relocate to the base given . . . . . can't you just put a sock in it & leave well alone
I have reason to question your motives here, and doubt they could be in any way intended to be for the benefit of those involved (which I would hazard a guess you aren't, & if you are , did you never hear the Anglo Saxon saying "don't s**t in your own nest" ) "
THIS IS WHAT HE SAID
Lets not question HIS motives, ( wanna be ryanair management )... like the tax situation, money bags, contracts, we question because it is so very questionable
Like almost everything else in Ryanair, it's questionable, their approach is something like ..... " lets see what we can get away with "
Their approach to the new EASA FTL's .... lets ignore them/ lets see what we can get away with, it's pretty clear that this is NOT legal.
They will call you on days off, before and after your standby, they will let you position when it would NOT satisfy legal requirements.
Ryanair say " always getting better " what they mean is " mostly getting away with it " I for one can't wait for the inevitable, when they get caught .
I have reason to question your motives here, and doubt they could be in any way intended to be for the benefit of those involved (which I would hazard a guess you aren't, & if you are , did you never hear the Anglo Saxon saying "don't s**t in your own nest" ) "
THIS IS WHAT HE SAID
Lets not question HIS motives, ( wanna be ryanair management )... like the tax situation, money bags, contracts, we question because it is so very questionable
Like almost everything else in Ryanair, it's questionable, their approach is something like ..... " lets see what we can get away with "
Their approach to the new EASA FTL's .... lets ignore them/ lets see what we can get away with, it's pretty clear that this is NOT legal.
They will call you on days off, before and after your standby, they will let you position when it would NOT satisfy legal requirements.
Ryanair say " always getting better " what they mean is " mostly getting away with it " I for one can't wait for the inevitable, when they get caught .
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As the SLF says, if the airport is OK with the process, why add to the hassle for the pilot (which hardly enhances flight safety, does it)?
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How would the airport know if a pilot in uniform is flying or not
That declaration is easily confirmed by a simple check of one's roster.
God help the first one checked, who's roster shows them to be on a day off!
I imagine the high security facility at Belmarsh might correctly be the destination for most airport workers attempting that?
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Even in the UK, I have been referred to staff channel when positioning off duty. Presumably because I had uniform and company ID. Should I have put them straight!?
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Hold on guys. There are tens if not hundreds of commuters who pass through security, identify themselves as commuters and follow all the rules as laid down BLACK AND WHITE in their operations manuals, which are signed by the managers and countersigned by all the relevant authorities. Why on earth some of you guys insist that it is all some sort of clandestine operation is beyond me. At best you can argue that there is an overlap between the different rules regarding FTL's, airside passes and common sense. In that case why not be thankful that airlines and the authorities are applying common sense regarding this issue?
Remember the Ryanair captain who rather unwisely allowed multiple commuters to sit in the toilet for takeoff? It was all over the news in the whole of Europe! Surely the authorities would have clamped down on commuting if it was illegal, following this incident.
Remember the Ryanair captain who rather unwisely allowed multiple commuters to sit in the toilet for takeoff? It was all over the news in the whole of Europe! Surely the authorities would have clamped down on commuting if it was illegal, following this incident.
Even in the UK, I have been referred to staff channel when positioning off duty. Presumably because I had uniform and company ID. Should I have put them straight!?
Certainly were I work we have fairly recently received a routine reminder of the consequences of using Staff search when not on duty, and the consequences of using a Staff ID to gain access to air side when not on Duty ...and it's pretty much as 4468 as described....(FWIW last time I looked even our positioning crews ex-base are banned from using the Staff process)
If the FR guys have local agreements best of luck to them.