Ryanair & Positioning Pilots
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I can certainly see why some would want this issue swept under the carpet. Hidden from view. DELETED! I very much hope the owning authorities are made aware of this issue, and provide clarity, where 'some' think there's a grey area, that they can exploit!
Then there'll be no need for opinions!
Join Date: Jun 2008
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4468 is spot in his recent comments!
We still haven't established if FR crews are using their airside IDs to access the restricted area of UK airports when they are not on duty.
So is it OK to just breach DfT rules and airport security for similar reasons such as just randomly going airside whenever you feel like it, whether that be to go shopping airside, plane spotting, meet your family/friends, steal luggage perhaps or maybe even jump on a random company aircraft for free to fly off to a random base?
Doesn't sound too good, if there isn't local agreements in place between Ryanair and UK airport operators. In the absence of any such agreement, what you are doing is a serious breach of DfT regulations.
Other low cost UK airlines do NOT participate in this practice and therefore why should FR, especially if in the process you are breaching DfT regulations and deserve to therefore have your airside pass withdrawn which in turn can lead to the non return of said pass and therefore ultimately termination of your employment.
As an airline, FR can do whatever the hell it wants WITHIN the regulations of its staff using their airside IDs. FR should not be compelling or inciting their staff to use their passes when not on duty. Why are they simply not provided with tickets (fare or paid/unpaid/staff rate) and then go through normal pax security. There would be no issue at all with that, and that is how all other UK airlines operate. So why are you guys at FR the exception???
We still haven't established if FR crews are using their airside IDs to access the restricted area of UK airports when they are not on duty.
So is it OK to just breach DfT rules and airport security for similar reasons such as just randomly going airside whenever you feel like it, whether that be to go shopping airside, plane spotting, meet your family/friends, steal luggage perhaps or maybe even jump on a random company aircraft for free to fly off to a random base?
Doesn't sound too good, if there isn't local agreements in place between Ryanair and UK airport operators. In the absence of any such agreement, what you are doing is a serious breach of DfT regulations.
Other low cost UK airlines do NOT participate in this practice and therefore why should FR, especially if in the process you are breaching DfT regulations and deserve to therefore have your airside pass withdrawn which in turn can lead to the non return of said pass and therefore ultimately termination of your employment.
As an airline, FR can do whatever the hell it wants WITHIN the regulations of its staff using their airside IDs. FR should not be compelling or inciting their staff to use their passes when not on duty. Why are they simply not provided with tickets (fare or paid/unpaid/staff rate) and then go through normal pax security. There would be no issue at all with that, and that is how all other UK airlines operate. So why are you guys at FR the exception???
Join Date: Feb 2000
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With respect ?
Closing down the thread equals sweeping it under the carpet. If you don't like it, don't read or participate. Gentlemen could you tell us why you want the discussion closed please ?
As an airline, FR can do whatever the hell it wants WITHIN the regulations of its staff using their airside IDs. FR should not be compelling or inciting their staff to use their passes when not on duty. Why are they simply not provided with tickets (fare or paid/unpaid/staff rate) and then go through normal pax security. There would be no issue at all with that, and that is how all other UK airlines operate. So why are you guys at FR the exception???
If it was just commuting to/from base on either side of a series of duties, I fear many airlines, particularly FR, would boot them off the flight.
In the case of the cabin being full, would they then be able to jump seat with a ticket?
Join Date: Apr 2003
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T250, it would not hurt to do a bit more research before posting blatant inaccurate accusations and threats. This thread is now really descending into needless and careless mud slinging. There is only so much detail one can post on a public forum, so I'll leave it this.
All I can say to some of you is: relax, if you want to 'run around airside whenever you want', then just buy any random 9 pound Ryanair ticket! It's much easier to do that than for a commuter to commute. Take care!
All I can say to some of you is: relax, if you want to 'run around airside whenever you want', then just buy any random 9 pound Ryanair ticket! It's much easier to do that than for a commuter to commute. Take care!
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We still haven't established if FR crews are using their airside IDs to access the restricted area of UK airports when they are not on duty.
The main issue about being 'on duty' is that it is at the behest of the employer. As such, it must be recorded for FTL purposes.
As fogie put it, the new EASA regulations seem to close any loopholes who might have existed so far. Rightly so, such loopholes give an unfair competitive advantage.
Join Date: Jun 2008
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T250, it would not hurt to do a bit more research before posting blatant inaccurate accusations and threats.
Who cares about that? Whoever is responsible for the aircrew security channels can deal with it, if he really thinks he is overwhelmed by people using that lane. I couldn't care less. Aircrew have my trust, whether they are on duty or not. We should stop making each others life difficult. If Ryanair crew can pax for free in uniform, good on them, they seem to have it hard enough in general.
I'm sure that ATC staff, managers and security staff overall have more trust than most other airside workers, however I doubt they disregard the DfT regulations as much as this FR commuters issue does.
It isn't the fact that we are making 'life difficult' is is merely all conforming to the same rules as each other, else like I said earlier, let's dispose of all the rules altogether!
What makes FR aircrew so special that they are the only airside workers and the only UK airline that disregards the rules?
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I am stating the facts which any FR employee with a UK airport issued airside pass should be aware of, and regardless if they are aware or not, is bound by. Is this inaccurate? It is as simple as grabbing your own airside ID, turning it over onto the reverse side, and the first line on the back states very clearly 'This card is for identification only and does not confer right of access'
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Yes? So they identify themselves as a commuter and security grants them access as per existing regulations at all airports.
Like 4468 previously said, if they identify themselves as commuting but OFF duty then they should be redirected to passenger search. Regardless of what security tell them or allow them to do, it is their pass that is on the line.
If they identify themselves as commuting but ON duty then by all means carry on, that is what the whole point of having airside passes and staff channels is about! Not to access airside off duty, therefore with no legitimate reason to be present airside.
To present it another way, how would it be different for example from the son of an FR pilot who happens to work at the airport in another capacity (cleaner, but holds an airside ID) who wants to fly with his father who is flying out of the airport. The son/daughter is not on duty, they are on a day off, but they go through staff security using their airside ID and then proceed to the gate where their father is the pilot of the flight and they gain access to the aircraft and depart with their father out of the airport.
Is that or isn't that a breach of DfT regulations? If it is, then it is also a breach regardless of who does it, be they aircrew, ground crew, shop staff or cleaners.
One of the most ridiculous threads I have seen on here (and it keeps getting worse). Wannabe´s and D(a)fT pundits.
There is clearly a reason UK Security procedures are among the worst worldwide.
There is clearly a reason UK Security procedures are among the worst worldwide.
Join Date: Mar 2014
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There are a few things implemented to make the whole aviation industry, and all it's regulations, a little simpler and make things go a little smoother without all the hassle security and paperbureaucrats are dumping down on us all these days...
I genuily feel that, as with the thread about ATC in the US, this thread is created by a "youngster" who may have missed the point here, and want to look at every sentence and comma in a book, and in the end make things even more absurd and coomplicated than they really are...
Our job is rather simple, moving people from A to B, and work together to be able to do it fast and efficient.... And we're all really good at it
Take it easy, enjoy the flow that keep things moving, and help work in that direction... Think about the implications of questions before asking them, you may well have shot yourself in the foot
I genuily feel that, as with the thread about ATC in the US, this thread is created by a "youngster" who may have missed the point here, and want to look at every sentence and comma in a book, and in the end make things even more absurd and coomplicated than they really are...
Our job is rather simple, moving people from A to B, and work together to be able to do it fast and efficient.... And we're all really good at it
Take it easy, enjoy the flow that keep things moving, and help work in that direction... Think about the implications of questions before asking them, you may well have shot yourself in the foot
Join Date: Oct 2004
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PENKO
So you're saying FR pilots are dressing in uniform, accessing the secure area with their ID, and listing themselves as operating (supernumary) crew, when they are actually OFF duty?
All purely and simply, to avoid purchasing a ticket, and just 'commuting' as a passenger.
That's correct isn't it.
I suspect a number of agencies ought to be very interested in this. Let's get the situation clarified, to avoid anyone putting themselves in a difficult position, eh?
T250, commuting as off duty crew is legitimate.
All purely and simply, to avoid purchasing a ticket, and just 'commuting' as a passenger.
That's correct isn't it.
I suspect a number of agencies ought to be very interested in this. Let's get the situation clarified, to avoid anyone putting themselves in a difficult position, eh?
Join Date: Jun 2007
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I actually think the element relating to the expectations of pilot to undertake duties at the behest of the employer on their days off is an important issue. We have seen may things change in a Period of time in the industry and what would have once been no way Jose becomes the norm, or it's okay, there is the proverbial race or the bottom. I am not in any way implying FR have created this (I'm sure there are varying opinions)however as professionals I'd like to think we can all agree that any employer not complying with flight time limitations to reduce the legally required rest/ days off of a crew member in order to increase productive of pilots/employees is not a good thing for any pilot ?
This is, IMHO an important issue which needs to be picked up by the relevant flight ops inspector to make things better for all involved (other than anyones who has a focus to squeeze more out of pilots for nothing in return).At what point does enough become enough, what if FR went transatlantic and the line of work originated in e.g. East Coast USA and you were expected to make your way there on your day off/rest period.... That might sound a little extreme, but 15 years ago if someone said what happens today would be happening the response would have probably been, no way ! It has to stop at some point, can't you all just hit the likes of chirp or the relevant regulator en mass, submit more reports than they know what to do with them ? A press campaign along the lines of what would happen to HGV drivers if they ignore their legal limits ?
Surely there is a will to stop this by the guys within FR ?
This is, IMHO an important issue which needs to be picked up by the relevant flight ops inspector to make things better for all involved (other than anyones who has a focus to squeeze more out of pilots for nothing in return).At what point does enough become enough, what if FR went transatlantic and the line of work originated in e.g. East Coast USA and you were expected to make your way there on your day off/rest period.... That might sound a little extreme, but 15 years ago if someone said what happens today would be happening the response would have probably been, no way ! It has to stop at some point, can't you all just hit the likes of chirp or the relevant regulator en mass, submit more reports than they know what to do with them ? A press campaign along the lines of what would happen to HGV drivers if they ignore their legal limits ?
Surely there is a will to stop this by the guys within FR ?
Join Date: Jan 2008
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The original post said
"I have several aquaintances.......who seem to......".
So I met a mate in a pub who knows a bloke ........
No one has been here to say he has done it and it happens/ed to me.
It's all hearsay.
Mods please put a stop to this, it is one of the stupidest threads I've ever seen on pprune.
"I have several aquaintances.......who seem to......".
So I met a mate in a pub who knows a bloke ........
No one has been here to say he has done it and it happens/ed to me.
It's all hearsay.
Mods please put a stop to this, it is one of the stupidest threads I've ever seen on pprune.
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Look ...
If you read the Ryanair/Brookfield thread in Terms and Endearment you might appreciate that I have a previous insight knowledge.
RYR had/have a 'floating' base type policy whereas one can work out out of, be off duty in, let's say, Stansted one week and appear on duty a few days later, with no positioning duty involved, in Hahn.
Regardless that I have a RYR agency background I also have a crew scheduling background and, in my world, at the point one goes off duty on a Friday afternoon is the same point that one comes on duty on a Monday morning.
Obviously RYR have a concession with the Irish authority so if one has a grievance take it up with the Irish authority, jumpseat travel is a staff concession, the more staff concessions the better, so I don't get that complaint!
If you read the Ryanair/Brookfield thread in Terms and Endearment you might appreciate that I have a previous insight knowledge.
RYR had/have a 'floating' base type policy whereas one can work out out of, be off duty in, let's say, Stansted one week and appear on duty a few days later, with no positioning duty involved, in Hahn.
Regardless that I have a RYR agency background I also have a crew scheduling background and, in my world, at the point one goes off duty on a Friday afternoon is the same point that one comes on duty on a Monday morning.
Obviously RYR have a concession with the Irish authority so if one has a grievance take it up with the Irish authority, jumpseat travel is a staff concession, the more staff concessions the better, so I don't get that complaint!
