Ryanair & Positioning Pilots

[111boy]

Seriously Finncapt ?

" The original post said

"I have several aquaintances.......who seem to......".

So I met a mate in a pub who knows a bloke ........

No one has been here to say he has done it and it happens/ed to me.

It's all hearsay.

Mods please put a stop to this, it is one of the stupidest threads I've ever seen on PPRuNe. "

It's a very valid thread, there are far more stupid threads. I worked for Ryanair and saw this practice almost everyday. It will all have to come to a halt once EASA get their way. There was plenty of talk from management that without this undocumented crew duty there would be no way of crewing their flights.

I'm really surprised at the calls to close the thread down. Why please ?

[T250]

The original post said

"I have several aquaintances.......who seem to......".

So I met a mate in a pub who knows a bloke ........

No one has been here to say he has done it and it happens/ed to me.

It's all hearsay.

Mods please put a stop to this, it is one of the stupidest threads I've ever seen on pprune.

No let's not put a stop to this, just because it is actually an inconvenient truth that some people on here are bringing up into the open issues not only of how FR employees appear to be breaching DfT regulations, but also FTL and potentially tax and airport charges avoidance.

This commuting off duty does happen, and it is the mechanics and mechanisms around how it is allowed/got away with that is the issue here, amongst other things.

It is the case with 2 other UK airlines, one orange and one major charter operator, that whenever their staff are 'commuting' whether on or off duty, they are given a ticket and go through normal pax security and do NOT use their airside ID to gain access. As they have a ticket, they are complying also with airport charges and they are fully documented as using the airport. They have a legitimate reason to be airside as they are ticketed and departing on a specific flight.

The opposite is the case with this FR commuters issue.

1. Using airside IDs when not on duty is a breach of any UK airport's ID pass system and of a number of DfT rules.

2. It seems that the reason to breach the do not use your airside ID when not on duty is so that FR and it's employees can avoid providing proper ticketed boarding passes to their staff as that would mean paying airport taxes and also going through pax security.

3. If Ryanair aircrew are allowed to just do whatever they like when off duty with regards to airside access, then why can't absolutely anyone else with airside IDs. You are not superior even though you may like to think you are, when it comes to compliance with UK airport DfT procedures. After all, you all still have to go through a mandatory security search every single time you go airside, you are not and should not be exempt from any rules that any other airside worker is subject to!

[4468]

There was plenty of talk from management that without this undocumented crew duty there would be no way of crewing their flights.

In a nutshell. Thank you!

This is a very dodgy practice, from a certain operator, encouraging it's pilots to blur the lines, and risk their own livelihood in the process. For whose benefit??? Definitely NOT the pilots'!

And who is defending this dodgy practice? Complaining here that it's all being brought to light??? Calling for the thread to be deleted/shut down, in case it rocks the boat?

Not that operator, (AFAWK) but PILOTS! (apparently??)

You couldn't make this stuff up!!!

[Wageslave]

Originally Posted by PENKO

Let's look at it from a different perspective, why should an airline NOT facilitate its off duty crew to travel on empty seats if these employees can prove that they travel between their home and their aircraft? It is not as if these companies are handing out freebees, it's the nature of air transport that homes can be hundreds of miles away from base. So why do you object to airlines and regulators who find a way to accommodate commuters?

You miss the point entirely. No reason at all not to facilitate commuting, indeed it would be a particularly crass employer that didn't. But that is not the point being argued. Neither is envy over freebies, it had nothing to do with that either.

It is to do with Ryanair apparently gaining unfair commercial advantage by operating a typical Irish unwritten exemption to their FTL that effectively adds perhaps a day per week to the work they can get out of their crews. No one else has this advantage. It may well be that the company line is they you should declare these commuting days as duty and if you don't then you're not complying with the rules. But that would be a cynical fudge as they know crew can't afford to lose valuable duty days like that and simply won't declare them. That, if it is the case, would be a nice way for the company to weasel out of responsibility having engineered a system they knew damn well would work in a way that suits them. If that surmise is correct it would take only the most cursory audit of duty hours returns against end duty/start next duty locations and ticket sale records to reveal the scale of the scam. Crew go along with it because it is the only way to be/remain employed, and staying employed is the reason so few of the doubtless scores of their employees have followed this thread and not commented. The culture of fear is all-pervasive. Same reason they put up with no union and all the other crap they have to suffer as taxless, holidayless, pensionless, sick-payless self-accommodating nomads who have to pay for their own sim checks.

The rest of us have to abide by the law and buy staff travel tickets for a nominal sum (some get a few freebies) but all of these attract APT as a pax ticket has to. Why should just one have a system that allows them to circumvent this illegally, and to the company's massive commercial advantage?

Aviation is all about adherence to rules and blatant rule-breaking is usually regarded as unhealthy. That is why so many people are so irritated by this business. It is so blatant yet they continue to get away with it, and the IAA ain't gonna do a damn thing about it, of that you can be certain.

[RAT 5]

If all crew were declared employees, as they should be, then much of this blah blah would disappear. Commuting is not positioning. One is at the choice of the pilot the other at the company. If you are correctly given employee status then any positioning away from base would have to be rostered, organised & ticketed. Rules would followed for both duty times & use of ID's.
What the commuters do is another issue entirely. Personally, if you had to choose between various issues to resolve I would recommend that of employee should top the list.

[ICEHOUSES]

Maybe the handling agents should report this clear breach of dft security when they become aware of this abuse of security by FR crew, as surely they know whats going on illegally at the gate.

[Avenger]

Last month I decided on the spur of the moment to get a flight to UK directly after my duty, I was still in uniform with no bags or change of clothes. On arrival at a well known UK airport I was " ushered" to the crew channel, I explained I was just a PAX, they said " its OK Sir" no need to queue.. they were just being helpful and as far as I know this practice has been going on for years, not restricted to FR by a long shot. Now " outbound" UK or any European airport we should use PAX channels if not on duty as they need the obligatory mug shot to match at the gate computer if required when they scan the pass.. Why the OP picked on FR is a mystery and all this FTL stuff is smoke and mirrors to disguise a FR bash that's clearly not working and of little interest to " fellow pilots"

[111boy]

I'm not sure your experience is relevant, sorry.

Simply being ushered through crew arrivals, so What ? Being called Sir, now that's worthy of a mention, I would place money on the airport being somewhere other that Stn. But if you think 10 pages in a week ( 25 000 views )is not of interest to the pilot community then I would have to ask why you don't go on all of the many other threads with fewer interest and declare that no one cares about them either ?

I think you might have missed the point, sorry.

[LlamaFarmer]

Originally Posted by Depone

Haven't we?!

Commuting or positioning - it doesn't matter what you call it - is done because the employer requires you to do it. It's for the job. It's at their behest. It's not done for fun.

But it's not...

Commuting is travelling from your chosen home to your normal base. It is required to do your normal job, and is reasonable to require you to do it, but is not part of your job.

Positioning to somewhere other than your normal base is not commuting, it is relocating for the companies benefit. Therefore part of the job.

[xollob]

Avenger

Why the OP picked on FR is a mystery and all this FTL stuff is smoke and mirrors to disguise a FR bash that's clearly not working and of little interest to " fellow pilots"

I work for another airline and find this blatant abuse of FTL's very relevant, any pilot from any airline should also find it concerning. It's not an FR bash, but a topic that is being discussed about a common practise within FR. It wouldn't happen in the outfit I or other colleagues work for because their TU would be all over that and simply pilots wouldn't operate it if its not legal, safe in the knowledge they are protecting their licences and free from persecution.


This may well be a wide spread practise (positioning on rest days - not commuting and it not being recorded as duty period) in other airlines, that would be equally as bad, if you know of other airlines who do this also please share, only one I know of is FR. This will become if it isn't already an issue under EASA as it clearly states a pilot can only have one home base, so some of the sharp practise that certain other European operators used to do in the same way may not be undertaken (times in taxis counting as rest periods etc).


Why do I find it all very relevant, well because all of our employers seem to have an aspiration to strive to the lowest common denominator, if an outfit is getting away with something that is saving them money you can bet any other employer must be thinking "would be good if we could do that" and then T&C's come under attack. I liken it to a rampant disease that starts in your little toe can spread very quickly to other parts of the body unless you amputate it or get some very strong medication.


Perhaps you can explain why you believe pilots being required to undertake positioning duties in their rest periods/days off is smoke and mirrors and not a breach of FTL's please ?

[Say Mach Number]

Perhaps you can explain why you believe pilots being required to undertake positioning duties in their rest periods/days off is smoke and mirrors and not a breach of FTL's please ?

They are not 'required' people choose to accept a lifestyle to live where the planes are not and therefore do it by choice.

I live near the airport I fly from but I could equally live in another country. As long as I get to my base for my flight wether by air, sea or land is irrelevant.

The point that your missing is that if I travel by FR to work I am not a pax but recorded as crew! Hence on duty in theory.

Buy a ticket and the issue goes away!!

Thats the issue none wants to spend out and 'buy' a ticket to get to work because working for FR is sold on a free commute if you cant be based at home.

And FR sure as hell don't want you to count the hours of your commute.

[Avenger]

The OP questioned the basic mechanics of how this system of free tickets on FR can work with the "assumption" that the positioning pilot was " additional or Sn " crew.. then muddied with briefings etc etc .. later the OP asked about the aspect of FTLs.
The thread has largely ignored the first point that FR crews, along with many others, can get free staff travel and just turn up at the gate, maybe the difference is that the FR crews don't get a ticket but I am sure they are LMC on the load sheet.. other airlines issue a blank boarding pass..
As pointed out, if you self position for your own needs it is not duty and the company doesn't give fig, neither do the authorities... on the other hand if the question is, is it sensible before a duty to position across Europe, and are you rested enough.. that's another topic and one that was well ventilated about BA long haul crews living abroad. Personally, I can get more rest tucked away in the aircraft with headphones under a blanket than I can get trundling around the M25 and can arrive " rested" .
Dont a fair chunk of NLH live abroad? Along with many others on commute contracts ? or are we now saying Joe Bloggs is going to position across Europe after and before each duty? The reason I say fellow pilots are " not interested" is not the topic but the implication that once again, a small benefit of the job may be eroded by some red tape rubber stamp Jonny in whitehall.
IF the company ask you to position on an " OFF DAY" it is no longer an off day and is duty.. full stop.. positioning AFTER a duty is usually not duty if it can be accomplished within the normal FDP. It only effects rest required.
So in the Nutshell, pilots that choose to live away from base for their own lifestyle needs and take advantage of free travel or un-ticketed travel do so under their own responsibility, how can we possibly hold airlines to account for this?
As for airports allowing access through crew channels, this is up to the guy on the gate at the time, yes he/she may be breaking the rules by doing a favour..
Lastly, I bet my bottom dollar that we have all at some time had the call " I know you are off...but can you do us a favour... etc etc" the cloth cuts both ways

[111boy]

No, again sorry, you missed the point

But I thought you thought it was a bit too tedious ? The point you have noted simply do not address the issue, luckily EASA have not, come late Feb the " hard rules " kick in, the " soft rules " will also implicate Ryan.

Perhaps read the thread, if you can be bothered? It's pretty tedious, and not remotely what you are on about. The law has been broken. Defend that perhaps ?

But wrong, wrong, misinformed and wrong, was better before you were interested, but you aren't? And it isn't?

So ?

[llondel]

For those resident in the UK (and possibly elsewhere), isn't there a tax implication? I'm sure that if my employer provided free air travel, or even gave me a free bus pass to commute from home to my normal place of work, the Inland Revenue would be in touch to get their share of a taxable benefit. On the other side of that, if my local airport was designated my normal place of work and I drove there at my own expense before my employer flew me elsewhere, that would be tax free but for flight crew it would fall foul of the FTL rules.

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

Why do I find it all very relevant, well because all of our employers seem to have an aspiration to strive to the lowest common denominator, if an outfit is getting away with something that is saving them money you can bet any other employer must be thinking "would be good if we could do that" and then T&C's come under attack. I liken it to a rampant disease that starts in your little toe can spread very quickly to other parts of the body unless you amputate it or get some very strong medication.

Yes and it gives FR an unfair competitive advantage. If they are positioning as crew they should be getting paid for their time. If they're commuting they should have to pay for their ticket.

Neither of these practices is occurring.

[golfyankeesierra]

What is bothering you all? Jumpseating is common practice in aviation. In Europe we copied it from the other side of the pond. Where they probably have the same issues with airside passes, security and an IRS.
I applaud any initiative to stop unfair benefits for the company RYR, but this is not exclusively for RYR, it is for many pilots of many airlines all over Europe, and it works fine!

[captplaystation]

They used to have a wonderful system in Spain,where, like the system (pre 9/11 I guess ) in the USA, you showed your badge & were accommodated.

It still exists, but the companies have been forced by "Aunty EASA" (or maybe the Dept of Transport equivalent in Spain ) to try to interfere in cockpit jump seat occupation. . . . . feckin crazy, I bet if someone had been sitting on the jump seat of the Spanair Mad Dog in MAD back in 2008 it wouldn't have ended the way it did . . . . always astonished how many errors I spot from the jump seat, no pressure, no role to play . . . easy-peasy.


Anyway, drifting from the thread subject, back to stirring the brown stuff you bunch of happy campers (or did I misspell that last word )

[172_driver]

Perhaps you can explain why you believe pilots being required to undertake positioning duties in their rest periods/days off is smoke and mirrors and not a breach of FTL's please ?

They are not 'required' people choose to accept a lifestyle to live where the planes are not and therefore do it by choice.

Say Mach Number,


That is true only for those who choose to commute from home to assigned base. When you are sent to another base than your assigned base you are traveling there at the behest of the operator, on your OFF day, no duty time/min rest recorded. If you are in Ryanair, you know that's happening all the time!!!

The point that your missing is that if I travel by FR to work I am not a pax but recorded as crew! Hence on duty in theory.

I don't buy that. I've done hundreds of commutes in FR. Never once have these commutes been recorded on the Voyage report as crew. There has been no trail in my Duty Plan. My roster says OFF, except for the rostered deadheading to recurrent training. The only little trail is my crewcode on the loadsheet, but that's hardly proof of me being on duty.

[victorc10]

It is counted as duty time, NOT flight duty time (as per the operations manual) and therefore you are on duty but not likely to affect your FTL's. Details are recorded and have been for a number of years, previously not. The new regulations will require some changes and are currently being negotiated with IAA.

[LlamaFarmer]

Originally Posted by victorc10

It is counted as duty time, NOT flight duty time (as per the operations manual) and therefore you are on duty but not likely to affect your FTL's. Details are recorded and have been for a number of years, previously not. The new regulations will require some changes and are currently being negotiated with IAA.

But surely it will because it affects the local time you went ON duty.