Air France Safety report
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Did Air France's accident rate change with introduction of the AirBus (up or down)?
AF's hull losses in accidents were:
1940s - 22
1950s - 24
1960s - 9
1970s - 2 (one B747; one Caravelle)
1980s - 3 (one B747; one A300 caused by engine failure (GE CF6); A320 Habsheim)
1990s - 2 (one B747; one B737)
2000s - 3 (one Concorde; one A340 Toronto; one A330 Atlantic)
...data from Aviation Safety Network.
Assuming the number of flights was increasing over time, this shows a big drop in the rate of hull losses from the '70s on. So the period with Airbuses in the fleet has been the safest. Of course the accident rate since the '70s might have been equally good with Boeings instead of Airbuses.
Last edited by Leodis737; 28th Aug 2009 at 00:44. Reason: typo
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AF pilot unions had for a long time been a very powerful force within this company. Consequently, the management (either in the past public time or in the current private one) has never dared to clash with the pilots even when they were as black as coal. At the time of the privatization, management even played pilots again other categories of staff ...
Air France absorbed 2 other airlines with EXTREMELY different cultures in the span of 4 years, added to that a double digit growth leaving the compagny desperate for pilots. I can't say it had much of a choice as to the quality of the individuals involved and yes, we are now saddled with some people who would be much better off doing something else. Word from the top was " Get drivers for these newly acquired aircrafts parked outside and do not trouble me with your problems, I want those market shares". Fast growth also means..........fast promotions, so not much criticism from the ranks. I know I didn't complain.
Offenders are left untouched for fear of union retaliation. Given the multiple pilots union structure, there is a huge competition to keep / get members. This leads to pilots cherry picking according to their very individual needs. If this means defending the undefendable.............so be it.
Whatever you do, you'll always find a buckaroo willing to take up your case.
A culture which, even unwillingly, produces a feeling of unresponsability / unaccountability among few, leads to bad things happening.
There are also a wide majority who dispear at this state of affair. But as long as the airline top management won't have the balls to face the unions head on on non negociable issues , nothing will change.
I have also read a lot of bull from self appointed " French culture specialists " enough to make my ancestors turn in their grave. To live 7 years in France to come up with THAT is a bloody waste of the time you spent with us.
Air France cockpits are not made of God and his little maids and absolutly NONE of us speaks Korean, although it does sound like it ( sometimes )when we speak english.
To question the wisdom of your captain is not only accepted but encouraged. As long as you don't call him a tart.........you're fine. Captains have been put into early retirement after reports of conduct unbecoming from F/O's. So all in all, nothing very different from what I have seen elsewhere.
Pilots come from all walks of life, Air Force, Navy, cadets, regional carriers, ex doctors, bankers, even from other countries like japan, Sweden, Belgium, Italy, UK, Germany.
Yes, french is the official language spoken here and as much as it seems to upset a few , it's the way it will always be. Live with it !
However, I do admit that in a culture that promotes individualism as the french do, it is very easy to end up with everyone having a very personal pig headed opinion just about everything.
You know the story : take a boat and 20 Brits you end up with a boat and a crew.
Take a boat and 20 frenchmen, you end up with a boat.....................and 20 frenchmen.
Now, what led a 744 Captain to take off from Jo'burg without a radar some 10 years ago ????
Simple, just a simple stupid decision taken by an idividual idiot, by no means compagny culture or policy. More important, the FO's went along with it. I talked to one of them then and he was honestly fine with that. Another idiot. Not the least pressure from the compagny. From the, then station manager ???? HOODLE, but then, she was the first to get the chop. Again it was a very individual decision which appalled all of us. I was FO then and I know that I would never have gone along with such a lunacy. The MEL at the time didn't forbid to fly at night without a radar leaving it to the Captain's judgement. That's how he got away with it, by the " letter of the law " Not a very honourable way to save your toush. The question that arises and has been an ongoing debate " Do we have to write absolutly everything or do we hope Skippers will exercise a sound judgement ?? " It's been changed since then and I can tell you one thing, according to the actual MEL, AF 447 would never have been able / allowed to leave Rio with the radar on dispatch.
One can of course challenge that, being french, lazy, undsiciplined and chronical liers, zzeeeey sho'd blattant geallic contempt forrrrrrrrrr zuch a ztupid ruuuuuule. In which case, one would be advised to take some very much needed R&R's.
In this business, there is always a certain element of perceived pressure, more than often the pressure we pilots, put on ourselves. Who likes having to cancel a flight because his guts tell him this is the best decision ?? I know I don't but I don't think twice when it comes to deciding something unpleasant that ensures a safe outcome.
Not everybody reacts the same under pressure and to turn this into a Compagny or even national culture issue is enough to make a wooden horse buck.
Taking Asseline out of the closet doesn't bring much to this debate.
Last edited by Me Myself; 28th Aug 2009 at 10:54.
"To question the wisdom of your captain is not only accepted but encouraged. As long as you don't call him a tart.........you're fine. Captains have been put into early retirement after reports of conduct unbecoming from F/O's. So all in all, nothing very different from what I have seen elsewhere."
Well as I'm probably one of the "French culture specialists" you refer to can I at least thank you for your clarification.......
Well as I'm probably one of the "French culture specialists" you refer to can I at least thank you for your clarification.......
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What might be added to this list is the Fokker icing accident in Pau, even if this was "only" AF régional.
Same picture: type with known susceptibility to icing, right kind of whether - but why would they consider deicing?
Same picture: type with known susceptibility to icing, right kind of whether - but why would they consider deicing?
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[quote][Thus far, I think Me Myself has probably made the most pertinent contribution (though i'd say that union power is not inherently a bad thing - you only need look at the recent Colgan accident to see that letting management drive working conditions is bad for safety)./QUOTE]
Well Dozy I agree with you but when one talks about pilots union in France, one certainly walks on egg shells..............or threads on a Brown snake.
This profession cannot do without unions, however, the french do not have the discipline to stick to one union. The minute your exact and immediate needs are not taken into account or speedily satisfied, off walks the disstified pilot to another whell where he hopes his thirst will be quenched.
This airline is plagued by the number of unions leading only to making the entire population weaker and the few elected union Shogun feeling powerfull and important since they sit at the bargaining table, have days off their roster for that purpose, in short a real little porky perk.
Reaching an agreement here isn't really the point. To be a good union leader, you have to gutt your oponent like a fish. It's win or die. God, this sounds really like a mexican revolution !!!
The system was based on protecting pilots from unfair actions on the management's part and in essence, it is a very good system.
However, it has been completly abused and only serves the purpose of the very few who do not give a dung and hide behind it.
It is indeed a cultural problem and since the french are errr............french and are bound to remain..........french, I don't forsee anything changing any time soon. When and if it does, I will be eating the dafodills by the root.
Well Dozy I agree with you but when one talks about pilots union in France, one certainly walks on egg shells..............or threads on a Brown snake.
This profession cannot do without unions, however, the french do not have the discipline to stick to one union. The minute your exact and immediate needs are not taken into account or speedily satisfied, off walks the disstified pilot to another whell where he hopes his thirst will be quenched.
This airline is plagued by the number of unions leading only to making the entire population weaker and the few elected union Shogun feeling powerfull and important since they sit at the bargaining table, have days off their roster for that purpose, in short a real little porky perk.
Reaching an agreement here isn't really the point. To be a good union leader, you have to gutt your oponent like a fish. It's win or die. God, this sounds really like a mexican revolution !!!
The system was based on protecting pilots from unfair actions on the management's part and in essence, it is a very good system.
However, it has been completly abused and only serves the purpose of the very few who do not give a dung and hide behind it.
It is indeed a cultural problem and since the french are errr............french and are bound to remain..........french, I don't forsee anything changing any time soon. When and if it does, I will be eating the dafodills by the root.
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...(though i'd say that union power is not inherently a bad thing - you only need look at the recent Colgan accident to see that letting management drive working conditions is bad for safety).
Its ridiculous to have someone travel 1/2 way across the country, sleep fitfully between two chairs in a public hallway then be pronounced fit as a fiddle and fresh to take passengers out in a snow storm. Mandating some recognition of the draining power of pre-duty travel ACROSS THE BOARD makes it a level playing field for all and takes it out of the negotiating whim of unions and management.
..since they sit at the bargaining table, have days off their roster for that purpose, in short a real little porky perk.
LOL@PJ2 graph 
who really needs more than that?
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No further legislation is necessary. The FAA, as an administrative enforcement body, has the power to fix things as we speak. Congress passed the 'ennabling legislation' long ago. If the Unions get out of Bed with management and rub their eyes a bit, fatigue and abusive rostering would be history. More and better pilots would be safer, better paid, and the nature of the equation would be more balanced. If you think it's anything but 'Pressure' that's got the Industry into this mess, you are wrong. It isn't legislation that's needed, it's Honesty.
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No. If you have union representation, and if they (your union delgates) are to come from the pilot body, then they MUST have the ability to be PRESENT when negotiations take place -that HAS to, obviously, include roster flexibility (or would you rather have ALL negotiations wait until the logistical dance of all having pilot s time off coincides?)- you may well be anti-union, but the ability to represent your constituency is not a 'perk' but a vital part of the process.
Cessna, I'm not anti union, quite the contrary.
When I joined many moons ago, there was one union, the today AF ALPA. Many solar resolutions later where are at 5 !! All this for the same airline. Most of them don't total more than a hundred members for a total of 4000 pilots. Who or what do you think they represent ??? SQUAT !! Give it more time and we'll have 8 !!
Everytime some yobos do not agree with the majority, they break off and start their own little shop. I don't think this does a lot for the pilot's representation but it certainly gives their rep some valuable leisure time.
Give me Vereinigung Cockpit any time or even BALPA. Mind you, even the german pilots are embracing our bad habits with Verdi.
For the rest, I am absolutly with you.
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I think you strengthened my point
No further legislation is necessary. The FAA, as an administrative enforcement body, has the power to fix things as we speak.
(They've had 'the power' for a long time, including the ability to shut down/fine repeated safety violators: instead, FAA inspectors get censored , silenced or fired, and SouthWest Airlines continues to fly till bits get ripped off the plane at 30,000ft )
Congress passed the 'ennabling legislation' long ago. If the Unions get out of Bed with management and rub their eyes a bit, fatigue and abusive rostering would be history.
(They've had 'the power' for a long time, including the ability to shut down/fine repeated safety violators: instead, FAA inspectors get censored , silenced or fired, and SouthWest Airlines continues to fly till bits get ripped off the plane at 30,000ft )
Congress passed the 'ennabling legislation' long ago. If the Unions get out of Bed with management and rub their eyes a bit, fatigue and abusive rostering would be history.
We can wander around in a futile quest like Diogenes searching for an 'Honest Man' or we can enact (yes, yet another bloody law) but maybe with teeth to enforce what almost honest men will not
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cessnapuppy. Of course you are correct. You fall into the trap that catches all those who have no cynicism. I am God's own cynic. I call for honesty, not law. The Law is there, and another one won't help. The trouble is greed, dishonesty, and downright fraud. With all due respect, Congress is for those who are gullible enough to believe in it.
Aside. It is a Shame that the way out is to ask folks whose job it isn't, to do the work of others whose job it is, but are too craven and criminal to do it? If demanding work rules that accomplish safety and a better lot for the pilots also does what the FAA should be doing; is that a bad thing?
As a pilot and SLF, I think I prefer Damocles.
Aside. It is a Shame that the way out is to ask folks whose job it isn't, to do the work of others whose job it is, but are too craven and criminal to do it? If demanding work rules that accomplish safety and a better lot for the pilots also does what the FAA should be doing; is that a bad thing?
As a pilot and SLF, I think I prefer Damocles.
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If the discussion relates to the higher numbers of hull losses by AF, over the past 25 years, it is fair to look at the hull losses themselves before we can debate AF corporate culture / CRM / Airbus over Boeing / Training et al as contributing factors..
AF hull losses
Jun 2009 - A330 - undetermined.
Aug 2005 - A340 - Runway Excursion (Long touchdown & Overrun)
Jul 2000 - Concorde - FOD damage and fuel leak ignition
Mar 1999 - B747 - Nose Gear failure (landing)
Mar 1999 - B737 - Runway Excursion ( wind & poss. lack of c/l lighting)
Dec 1994 - A300 - Hijack & W/off due responsive action
Jan 1994 - A340 - H/pump O/heat & fire - not in service
Anyone else have any hull losses in past 25 years to add ?
AF hull losses
Jun 2009 - A330 - undetermined.
Aug 2005 - A340 - Runway Excursion (Long touchdown & Overrun)
Jul 2000 - Concorde - FOD damage and fuel leak ignition
Mar 1999 - B747 - Nose Gear failure (landing)
Mar 1999 - B737 - Runway Excursion ( wind & poss. lack of c/l lighting)
Dec 1994 - A300 - Hijack & W/off due responsive action
Jan 1994 - A340 - H/pump O/heat & fire - not in service
Anyone else have any hull losses in past 25 years to add ?
Last edited by Bruce Wayne; 28th Aug 2009 at 19:21.
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Will Fraser:
The FAA, as an administrative enforcement body, has the power to fix things as we speak ... If the Unions get out of Bed with management and rub their eyes a bit...
The FAA, as an administrative enforcement body, has the power to fix things as we speak ... If the Unions get out of Bed with management and rub their eyes a bit...
Back to the topic at hand - if the consolidation of the various French state-owned airlines into AF have caused the various impasses that Me Myself describes, and safety is being adversely affected as a result, then serious questions need to be asked within the unions and airline management, and a new accommodation must be reached.
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Jul 2000 - Concorde - FOD damage and fuel leak ignition
Oh, and the engineering problems with the wheel spacer.
Oh, and I forgot the tailwind "problem".............
Statistical power.
Given that the Conc and AF447 represent 66% of the sample since 2000, it is hard to avoid the conclusion that any estimate of the baseline rate of accidents based on a total of ONE data point is predestined to fail.
Further, if French culture is inimical to working with complex technology, how does the world's biggest nuclear power industry manage? Seems to work better than that in the UK, US, Russia, or indeed anywhere else.
Given that the Conc and AF447 represent 66% of the sample since 2000, it is hard to avoid the conclusion that any estimate of the baseline rate of accidents based on a total of ONE data point is predestined to fail.
Further, if French culture is inimical to working with complex technology, how does the world's biggest nuclear power industry manage? Seems to work better than that in the UK, US, Russia, or indeed anywhere else.
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Further, if French culture is inimical to working with complex technology, how does the world's biggest nuclear power industry manage? Seems to work better than that in the UK, US, Russia, or indeed anywhere else
N4790P
….and yet all the DGAC inspector pilots I’ve had the pleasure of dealing with over the years were Air France pilots also and without fail came across in a most positive, safety conscious and cooperative fashion.
The last few answers prompt me to kindly ask you to differentiate more between the French high tech safety culture and AF's one; if that make sense. Without concrete data, it seems the French TGV and Nuclear power stations are very reliable (knock wood). How do we explain that? On the other hand other nations with similar institutions tend to have a more balanced record.
Not sure if that makes sense?
I have theory for the AF but I dont' want to express it as yet.
Rwy in Sight
Not sure if that makes sense?
I have theory for the AF but I dont' want to express it as yet.
Rwy in Sight
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And why would you keep us in the dark ? That's a shame.
Then I'll put my 2 pence in :
- As I mentioned above, AF merged with 2 airlines in the 90's. One was UTA ( privatly owned ) a small outfit dating from the days where the french empire was split. UTA in west Africa and the Pacific, AF the rest of the world.
- Domestic ? In the 60's no one would deem himself to such a low job and it was left out until some ex navy admiral convinced the governement that something had to be done. And they did a superb job. In those days Marseilles was some 10 hours from Paris by train, suddenly with the Caravelle and later Mercure and A300, it went to just 60 minutes. Added to that their splendid on time record due to the automatic landing ( a first then ) Air Inter changed the face of the country by its price structure making suddenly possible to move from side to the other...........well through Paris, good old centralized state. Still.
However, their quality of service back in the cabin which was more of a cattle truck class really, was total crap. No seating, 5 francs ( which would almots be 10 euros today ) for an orange juice. ( No Mr fruitcake O'Leary, you didn't invent a damn thing ). Being the only mean of transport to the provinces, they were holding the governement by the balls and they squeezed more than a few times to get what they wanted not realizing the TGV was poping its nose.
Not really realzing there was no competition,or abusing this situation ( whichever ) led them to develop this culture toward the governement " We demand, you guys deliver " That was then their idea of collective bargaining which they brought along with them.
Air Inter grounded ? The country was chocking..........and everybody knew it.
In a way, they were like the aussie pilots of the late 80's. Look what happened.
The 1980's came as a bit of shock but it's not until the 1990's that they realized they some heat under the toushy and denial wasn't on anymore. For the most disconnected from reality knocking, they even thought they were going to fly to the french West Indies and make a bundle of money !!! When in fact, according to market laws, they were heading toward oblivion.
French were absolutly fed up by their numerous and ongoing strikes and TGV started offering some real alternatives.
The french governement however keen to ditch them, wasn't going to let the airline ( they owned ) go down and be worth less than toilet paper.They decided to merge them with AF, which by the way, was the only sensible idea they had had in a very long time. Air Inter should never have existed in the first place had AF not been so stupid and arrogant.
Most of the pilots joining Air Inter were those who had not been able to make it into AF or UTA, sometimes because Air Inter was the only one recruiting, some other times ( or most if I had a death wish ) because they didn't cut the mustard. Let's be fair and say that when given the choice, an homeopathic proportion chose to go to Air Inter. When not given the choice in times of harships, everybody, including me, wanted to join Air Inter.
A handfull chose to leave Air Inter when Air France started recruiting again in the 90's and started at the bottom of the seniority list, choice they were going to regret when the merger took place.
At any rate, this created a real culture of resentment toward AF that only grew with the years. A kind of Robin Hood culture.
Due to their short route structure and their collective agreement, Air Inter pilots were making a lot more money than Air France. You had A300 captains making more money than AF Jumbo captains who spent 20 days away from home then and were the laughing stock of Air Inter pilots calling AF L/H bunk pilots .............etc as opposed to them who saw themselves as the real deal. Not really full blown love and without the buffer and look alike civilized manners the anglo saxon culture offers.
These were the circumstances under which the merger occured and it did turn very bloody.
Not having given a hoot about long haul for years, Air Inter pilots suddenly demanded to be immediatly promoted so they could keep there salaries or at least keep the level of salaries they had before the merger.The AF S/H route structure with long routes like SVO or TLV, was indeed hammering them and the claim is they lost 20 % salary in the process.
Of all the indignities, they also had to be requalified with Air France SOP's, and this didn't go down too well.
In my view, Air France made a big mistake but as we all know, ironsight is very easy. We were in time of abundance and we could have paid them what they were earning ( roughly long haul salary ) before the merger. Today, they're all, or almost, on long haul anyway or have left. On the long term, the cost would have been very marginal and it would have eliminated the resentment they were feeling ( or maybe not ).
On the other hand, AF pilots were not about to let pass a 747 command having patiently waited 17 years to get there and it was ......errrr.......agreed that one Air Inter for ( not sure ) 4 Air France pilots would have access to long haul for a period of 8 years. After a few years, this system was creating such a huge resentment among Air Inter pilots that it was ditched all together and for once, AF management didn't consult AF ALPA, or if they did, they didn't give a damn about their disagreement and we went to a one to one basis which in turn, left a few AF pilots stranded on short haul for ever . These however, even screaming murder, went on faithfully ploughing not even stopping working for one second. Very different culture regarded by Air Inter, who regard themselves as the real testoterone pumped up blokes, as pussy's culture.
This brought a slight measure of peace, although some well known pains you know where, remained unamended pains you know where.
Just a slight side step here : There were 2 sets of attitudes. Those who said " Well, that's life, let's make the best out of it " and we never had a problem with them ( the majority ) and they are now happy long haul skippers and the others who decided they were to go down with the ship or even make the ship go down. Some left cashing loss of licence insurance money depleting the cash register in the process and those staying saw their premiums go up or their coverage go down. Thanks a bunch folks. Some younger stayed and started being pain in the toush and are now unhappy long haul skippers. They also are the noisest. I know, 15 000 Eur a month cruising the planet in a shiny 777, that really sucks. Who would want that, I'm asking you ?
It was refelected in all sorts of attitudes, from refusing to wear the AF uniform to clearly not giving a hoot in a thousand of ways.
In any airline, this kind of attitude would have been met by " Thank you but no thank you and let's call it a day ". Not the case here as everything got nasty and political.
On top of that AF was starting to look as a solid airline even attracting the interest of KLM. Social peace was indispensible and at ( almost ) any price. Flight managers could do all they wanted...............exept reprimand a stray away pilot, if they did..........they got hammered or locked in some dark closet having no respect from the top and absolutly SQUAT from the ranks. Among other habits, they also imported their very volatile union culture leading to the over bidding we are witnessing today.
Bear in mind all this happened in the span of almost 15 years during which, AF growing the way it was, was offering tremendous career opportunities to most.
Only a year ago, everybody was talking about all the new aircrafts ordered, people being picky about the type of course offered. Short haul command ??? Nay, I want to enjoy the tropics and my pinacolada's a bit more ; I've got time.
Today, the music has stopped and everyone has a huge hangover, more so after 447. The temptation to look for scape goats is huge and right now, seeing threads like this one, full in your face, with an almost centenial name tarnished.............well, yes, hurts.
But let's not stop at the booboo clinic and let's move on.
The devil hides in the best of intentions but my opinion is that in the hope to create this huge airline, social peace got paramount, even at almost any price and some basics got forgotten on the way. There was a huge elephant in the room no one wanted to see having such a grand time.
I'm not going to point the finger at anyone because, like many, I did gain from it, a lot and no one forced me to attend the party. However, clearly, things need to change and that's everywhere from top down.
AF 447 has adressed world wide, what airline training has become. We have in 12 months witnessed the best ( Sully ) and the most tragic ( 447 ) and these are the 2 sides of the same coin.
No flying an airliner isn't an easy thing to do and I say this to the beancounters, the journos as well as to some of our cocky young pilots full of cum who think they can cruise across the ocean watching DVD's thinking they're hot shots while granpa is resting in the bunk. You don't pay attention................you hurt.
No, you are not by birth right promised a short haul command in 7 years and a long haul in 10 and no granpa won't walk so you can have your whim satisfied. By the look of it, patience is going to become a very trendy vertue...................if you're lucky enough to keep your job.
No, aircrafts have not become so easy to fly that a monkey could fly them, in fact as we painfully know, the gap between normal and tricky has become wider.
We have to go from boredom to shear panic mode in seconds. That you must learn..............unless you're married to a neurotic which makes you an expert.
Finally, this job carries huge responsabilities and those who think they can do it in a cheap, slack, fast food manner need to be cut lose without the slightest hesitation.
Then I'll put my 2 pence in :
- As I mentioned above, AF merged with 2 airlines in the 90's. One was UTA ( privatly owned ) a small outfit dating from the days where the french empire was split. UTA in west Africa and the Pacific, AF the rest of the world.
- Domestic ? In the 60's no one would deem himself to such a low job and it was left out until some ex navy admiral convinced the governement that something had to be done. And they did a superb job. In those days Marseilles was some 10 hours from Paris by train, suddenly with the Caravelle and later Mercure and A300, it went to just 60 minutes. Added to that their splendid on time record due to the automatic landing ( a first then ) Air Inter changed the face of the country by its price structure making suddenly possible to move from side to the other...........well through Paris, good old centralized state. Still.
However, their quality of service back in the cabin which was more of a cattle truck class really, was total crap. No seating, 5 francs ( which would almots be 10 euros today ) for an orange juice. ( No Mr fruitcake O'Leary, you didn't invent a damn thing ). Being the only mean of transport to the provinces, they were holding the governement by the balls and they squeezed more than a few times to get what they wanted not realizing the TGV was poping its nose.
Not really realzing there was no competition,or abusing this situation ( whichever ) led them to develop this culture toward the governement " We demand, you guys deliver " That was then their idea of collective bargaining which they brought along with them.
Air Inter grounded ? The country was chocking..........and everybody knew it.
In a way, they were like the aussie pilots of the late 80's. Look what happened.
The 1980's came as a bit of shock but it's not until the 1990's that they realized they some heat under the toushy and denial wasn't on anymore. For the most disconnected from reality knocking, they even thought they were going to fly to the french West Indies and make a bundle of money !!! When in fact, according to market laws, they were heading toward oblivion.
French were absolutly fed up by their numerous and ongoing strikes and TGV started offering some real alternatives.
The french governement however keen to ditch them, wasn't going to let the airline ( they owned ) go down and be worth less than toilet paper.They decided to merge them with AF, which by the way, was the only sensible idea they had had in a very long time. Air Inter should never have existed in the first place had AF not been so stupid and arrogant.
Most of the pilots joining Air Inter were those who had not been able to make it into AF or UTA, sometimes because Air Inter was the only one recruiting, some other times ( or most if I had a death wish ) because they didn't cut the mustard. Let's be fair and say that when given the choice, an homeopathic proportion chose to go to Air Inter. When not given the choice in times of harships, everybody, including me, wanted to join Air Inter.
A handfull chose to leave Air Inter when Air France started recruiting again in the 90's and started at the bottom of the seniority list, choice they were going to regret when the merger took place.
At any rate, this created a real culture of resentment toward AF that only grew with the years. A kind of Robin Hood culture.
Due to their short route structure and their collective agreement, Air Inter pilots were making a lot more money than Air France. You had A300 captains making more money than AF Jumbo captains who spent 20 days away from home then and were the laughing stock of Air Inter pilots calling AF L/H bunk pilots .............etc as opposed to them who saw themselves as the real deal. Not really full blown love and without the buffer and look alike civilized manners the anglo saxon culture offers.
These were the circumstances under which the merger occured and it did turn very bloody.
Not having given a hoot about long haul for years, Air Inter pilots suddenly demanded to be immediatly promoted so they could keep there salaries or at least keep the level of salaries they had before the merger.The AF S/H route structure with long routes like SVO or TLV, was indeed hammering them and the claim is they lost 20 % salary in the process.
Of all the indignities, they also had to be requalified with Air France SOP's, and this didn't go down too well.
In my view, Air France made a big mistake but as we all know, ironsight is very easy. We were in time of abundance and we could have paid them what they were earning ( roughly long haul salary ) before the merger. Today, they're all, or almost, on long haul anyway or have left. On the long term, the cost would have been very marginal and it would have eliminated the resentment they were feeling ( or maybe not ).
On the other hand, AF pilots were not about to let pass a 747 command having patiently waited 17 years to get there and it was ......errrr.......agreed that one Air Inter for ( not sure ) 4 Air France pilots would have access to long haul for a period of 8 years. After a few years, this system was creating such a huge resentment among Air Inter pilots that it was ditched all together and for once, AF management didn't consult AF ALPA, or if they did, they didn't give a damn about their disagreement and we went to a one to one basis which in turn, left a few AF pilots stranded on short haul for ever . These however, even screaming murder, went on faithfully ploughing not even stopping working for one second. Very different culture regarded by Air Inter, who regard themselves as the real testoterone pumped up blokes, as pussy's culture.
This brought a slight measure of peace, although some well known pains you know where, remained unamended pains you know where.
Just a slight side step here : There were 2 sets of attitudes. Those who said " Well, that's life, let's make the best out of it " and we never had a problem with them ( the majority ) and they are now happy long haul skippers and the others who decided they were to go down with the ship or even make the ship go down. Some left cashing loss of licence insurance money depleting the cash register in the process and those staying saw their premiums go up or their coverage go down. Thanks a bunch folks. Some younger stayed and started being pain in the toush and are now unhappy long haul skippers. They also are the noisest. I know, 15 000 Eur a month cruising the planet in a shiny 777, that really sucks. Who would want that, I'm asking you ?
It was refelected in all sorts of attitudes, from refusing to wear the AF uniform to clearly not giving a hoot in a thousand of ways.
In any airline, this kind of attitude would have been met by " Thank you but no thank you and let's call it a day ". Not the case here as everything got nasty and political.
On top of that AF was starting to look as a solid airline even attracting the interest of KLM. Social peace was indispensible and at ( almost ) any price. Flight managers could do all they wanted...............exept reprimand a stray away pilot, if they did..........they got hammered or locked in some dark closet having no respect from the top and absolutly SQUAT from the ranks. Among other habits, they also imported their very volatile union culture leading to the over bidding we are witnessing today.
Bear in mind all this happened in the span of almost 15 years during which, AF growing the way it was, was offering tremendous career opportunities to most.
Only a year ago, everybody was talking about all the new aircrafts ordered, people being picky about the type of course offered. Short haul command ??? Nay, I want to enjoy the tropics and my pinacolada's a bit more ; I've got time.
Today, the music has stopped and everyone has a huge hangover, more so after 447. The temptation to look for scape goats is huge and right now, seeing threads like this one, full in your face, with an almost centenial name tarnished.............well, yes, hurts.
But let's not stop at the booboo clinic and let's move on.
The devil hides in the best of intentions but my opinion is that in the hope to create this huge airline, social peace got paramount, even at almost any price and some basics got forgotten on the way. There was a huge elephant in the room no one wanted to see having such a grand time.
I'm not going to point the finger at anyone because, like many, I did gain from it, a lot and no one forced me to attend the party. However, clearly, things need to change and that's everywhere from top down.
AF 447 has adressed world wide, what airline training has become. We have in 12 months witnessed the best ( Sully ) and the most tragic ( 447 ) and these are the 2 sides of the same coin.
No flying an airliner isn't an easy thing to do and I say this to the beancounters, the journos as well as to some of our cocky young pilots full of cum who think they can cruise across the ocean watching DVD's thinking they're hot shots while granpa is resting in the bunk. You don't pay attention................you hurt.
No, you are not by birth right promised a short haul command in 7 years and a long haul in 10 and no granpa won't walk so you can have your whim satisfied. By the look of it, patience is going to become a very trendy vertue...................if you're lucky enough to keep your job.
No, aircrafts have not become so easy to fly that a monkey could fly them, in fact as we painfully know, the gap between normal and tricky has become wider.
We have to go from boredom to shear panic mode in seconds. That you must learn..............unless you're married to a neurotic which makes you an expert.
Finally, this job carries huge responsabilities and those who think they can do it in a cheap, slack, fast food manner need to be cut lose without the slightest hesitation.
Last edited by Me Myself; 29th Aug 2009 at 15:56.