UK NPAS discussion: thread Mk 2
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Age: 71
Posts: 1,364
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The utterances of these people get more unrealistic pretty much every time they say anything about aviation.
I have no doubt that the police could also benefit from having Star-Trek style personnel transporters, but that also isn't going to happen any time soon.
I have no doubt that the police could also benefit from having Star-Trek style personnel transporters, but that also isn't going to happen any time soon.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Police helicopter in dramatic Doncaster river rescue - Local - The Star
Monday 1 October 2012
A couple of points from this;
1. The NPAS plan was to shut down Sheffield and if it wasn't for the almighty bun fight, they would have been.
2. Winsor doesn't consider air unit Officers frontline.
3. The Minister this very morning said that it 'simply wasn't true' that lives are being put at risk...well that Sir, as this incident shows, simply isn't true.
OK so thats 3 points, but we've all seen the Spanish Inquisition sketch :-)
Monday 1 October 2012
Police helicopter in dramatic Doncaster river rescue
The South Yorkshire Police helicopter was involved in a dramatic rescue last night after an angler fell in the river near Doncaster town centre.
The helicopter crew landed near the river bank at Milethorn Lane, Wheatley, and assisted in pulling the man out of the water.
Emergency services were called to the river just before 7pm when a man dialled 999 to say his friend had fallen into the water while they had bene fishing near the rear of Doncaster College’s Hub building.
He had jumped into the water to try and pull him out but was unable to so climbed onto the bank to raise the alarm.
By the time emergency services arrived the man had been swept down river because of the volume of water in the Don but the helicopter was able to spot him with its spotlights and camera.
The crew decided to land nearby and some of the crew were able to pull the man from the water and passed him to firefighters who kept him warm until an ambulance could take him to hospital.
The South Yorkshire Police helicopter was involved in a dramatic rescue last night after an angler fell in the river near Doncaster town centre.
The helicopter crew landed near the river bank at Milethorn Lane, Wheatley, and assisted in pulling the man out of the water.
Emergency services were called to the river just before 7pm when a man dialled 999 to say his friend had fallen into the water while they had bene fishing near the rear of Doncaster College’s Hub building.
He had jumped into the water to try and pull him out but was unable to so climbed onto the bank to raise the alarm.
By the time emergency services arrived the man had been swept down river because of the volume of water in the Don but the helicopter was able to spot him with its spotlights and camera.
The crew decided to land nearby and some of the crew were able to pull the man from the water and passed him to firefighters who kept him warm until an ambulance could take him to hospital.
1. The NPAS plan was to shut down Sheffield and if it wasn't for the almighty bun fight, they would have been.
2. Winsor doesn't consider air unit Officers frontline.
3. The Minister this very morning said that it 'simply wasn't true' that lives are being put at risk...well that Sir, as this incident shows, simply isn't true.
OK so thats 3 points, but we've all seen the Spanish Inquisition sketch :-)
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting point of view
In the light of today's fanfare this review/editorial highlights some very relevant points....
National Police Air Service – Launches today – Lies and spin | policeaircrew
National Police Air Service – Launches today – Lies and spin | policeaircrew
I told you so!
Hate to say this Guy's. But I have been telling you this for a couple of years now! It cost me my job, but I always knew that what I was predicting would come to pass!
Alex Marshall is full of spin. He is Tony Blairs disciple. He doesnt actually tell bare faced lies, but he does manipulate the truth.
Gather the evidence. Keep it safe, because one day he will be called to account, and it will be needed!
The promised savings will not be delivered. Not even closely! Efficiency will be lost. But one day questions will be asked.
tigerfish
Alex Marshall is full of spin. He is Tony Blairs disciple. He doesnt actually tell bare faced lies, but he does manipulate the truth.
Gather the evidence. Keep it safe, because one day he will be called to account, and it will be needed!
The promised savings will not be delivered. Not even closely! Efficiency will be lost. But one day questions will be asked.
tigerfish
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Watching the news this morning (NPAS day 2) I can't help thinking...isn't the shutting down of the Dyfed Powys Air Support Unit also part of the plan!
Another job for the Birmingham cab, after a 45 minute transit, and with the DP unit closed down, where can you get fuel during the early hours in West Wales?
Another job for the Birmingham cab, after a 45 minute transit, and with the DP unit closed down, where can you get fuel during the early hours in West Wales?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Found online.
'Scrapping Dyfed-Powys police helicopter would be a disaster'
Plaid MP Jonathan Edwards has written to Home Secretary, Teresa May, asking her to reconsider a policy which would see the Dyfed-Powys Police helicopter among several to be scrapped.
He wrote the letter after the force's helicopter was forced to transport 14-year-old Luke Somerfield from Cilyrychen Quarry, in Llandybie, to hospital in Swansea, where he died. The Wales Air Ambulance was on call in Monmouthshire during the incident on June 6.
The Carmarthen East and Dinefwr MP added removing the force helicopter could lead to "further disastrous consequences".
"The loss of such a young life has knocked the community for six and raises serious questions of the UK Government's decision to rationalise police air support services," Mr Edwards said in his letter.
Police chiefs to fight helicopter axe
If I may refer to my earlier post...
..."The Minister this very morning said that it 'simply wasn't true' that lives are being put at risk..."
Plaid MP Jonathan Edwards has written to Home Secretary, Teresa May, asking her to reconsider a policy which would see the Dyfed-Powys Police helicopter among several to be scrapped.
He wrote the letter after the force's helicopter was forced to transport 14-year-old Luke Somerfield from Cilyrychen Quarry, in Llandybie, to hospital in Swansea, where he died. The Wales Air Ambulance was on call in Monmouthshire during the incident on June 6.
The Carmarthen East and Dinefwr MP added removing the force helicopter could lead to "further disastrous consequences".
"The loss of such a young life has knocked the community for six and raises serious questions of the UK Government's decision to rationalise police air support services," Mr Edwards said in his letter.
Police chiefs to fight helicopter axe
They (Police Authority) argue a helicopter is more appropriate and accessible than an plane in covering Dyfed-Powys, which is half the size of Wales and the fourth largest police area in the UK.
A spokesman for the police authority said: "Dyfed-Powys includes over 350 miles of coastline, substantial mountainous terrain and many remote and rural communities.
"We recognise a fixed wing aircraft would be cheaper to operate than the helicopter and would give greater flight time.
"However, it would have a number of weaknesses, including the inability to land at a scene to arrest a person, locate a missing person or deal with a casualty.
"And it also has the inability to transport specialist officers such as firearms, dogs and negotiators."
Dyfed-Powys Police Authority chairman Gwyn Hopkins said losing the helicopter service was not a price worth paying.
A spokesman for the police authority said: "Dyfed-Powys includes over 350 miles of coastline, substantial mountainous terrain and many remote and rural communities.
"We recognise a fixed wing aircraft would be cheaper to operate than the helicopter and would give greater flight time.
"However, it would have a number of weaknesses, including the inability to land at a scene to arrest a person, locate a missing person or deal with a casualty.
"And it also has the inability to transport specialist officers such as firearms, dogs and negotiators."
Dyfed-Powys Police Authority chairman Gwyn Hopkins said losing the helicopter service was not a price worth paying.
If I may refer to my earlier post...
..."The Minister this very morning said that it 'simply wasn't true' that lives are being put at risk..."
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Just heard the search briefing on Sky, any questions?
(Something sounding like), Are we up in the air then or what?
Yea, obviously that's an obvious one, we'll give an update on that but there are 2 helicopters requested both here this morning.
Yea, obviously that's an obvious one, we'll give an update on that but there are 2 helicopters requested both here this morning.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Funny thing that. Getting TWO helicopters to the job.
NPAS forget in the all the spin, that we've been doing mutual aid AND BORDERLESS TASKING for frickin decades..!!
Perhaps it's a Hampshire thing, whereby they've had their head in the sand for the last 20 years and suddenly they think they've invented the wheel.
NPAS forget in the all the spin, that we've been doing mutual aid AND BORDERLESS TASKING for frickin decades..!!
Perhaps it's a Hampshire thing, whereby they've had their head in the sand for the last 20 years and suddenly they think they've invented the wheel.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Apart from 40+ hours in a Chipmunk and a few trips in a Robin 200, my fixed wing time is limited.
As this incident in Wales continues, I wonder if someone from NPAS would be kind enough to tell me, considering the weather (see aviation forecasts below) and terrain (note: high ground to the South of Machynlleth is 1,709ft, Northwest 2,188ft, with the road going off to the north leading to ground at 2,926ft), how much better would a fixed wing aircraft be in this environment than a helicopter......
TAF
EGDX (Haverfordwest)
020709Z 0209/0218 23015G25KT 9999 SCT030
TEMPO 0209/0212 7000 SHRA SCT020
BECMG 0212/0215 -RA BKN018 PROB30
TEMPO 0215/0218 7000 +SHRA BKN014CB
Haverfordwest weather
TAF
EGOV (RAF Valley)
020734Z 0209/0218 22018G28KT 9999 FEW018
TEMPO 0209/0218 -SHRA SCT018 PROB30
TEMPO 0211/0218 7000 SHRA BKN014TCU
BECMG 0215/0217 22028G38KT
.....despite what they have been told before
Police force to rebel against plans for centralising Welsh helicops - Wales News - News - WalesOnline
However;
As it is open source;
http://www.clevelandpa.org.uk/admin/...pendix%20B.pdf
As this incident in Wales continues, I wonder if someone from NPAS would be kind enough to tell me, considering the weather (see aviation forecasts below) and terrain (note: high ground to the South of Machynlleth is 1,709ft, Northwest 2,188ft, with the road going off to the north leading to ground at 2,926ft), how much better would a fixed wing aircraft be in this environment than a helicopter......
TAF
EGDX (Haverfordwest)
020709Z 0209/0218 23015G25KT 9999 SCT030
TEMPO 0209/0212 7000 SHRA SCT020
BECMG 0212/0215 -RA BKN018 PROB30
TEMPO 0215/0218 7000 +SHRA BKN014CB
Haverfordwest weather
TAF
EGOV (RAF Valley)
020734Z 0209/0218 22018G28KT 9999 FEW018
TEMPO 0209/0218 -SHRA SCT018 PROB30
TEMPO 0211/0218 7000 SHRA BKN014TCU
BECMG 0215/0217 22028G38KT
.....despite what they have been told before
Police force to rebel against plans for centralising Welsh helicops
Earlier this year, Dyfed-Powys Police Authority won the support of MPs after publicly speaking out against the plan, set to come into force in the area in 2014, voicing “grave concerns” about the suitability of a fixed-wing aircraft in its mountainous terrain.
In June the Government hit back – introducing a statutory instrument requiring police forces to sign up to the new service.
Earlier this year, Dyfed-Powys Police Authority won the support of MPs after publicly speaking out against the plan, set to come into force in the area in 2014, voicing “grave concerns” about the suitability of a fixed-wing aircraft in its mountainous terrain.
In June the Government hit back – introducing a statutory instrument requiring police forces to sign up to the new service.
However;
As it is open source;
Fixed Wing Trial – Dyfed
Powys
In June 2012 an initial fixed wing aircraft
trial was undertaken by NPAS in Dyfed
Powys. The trial was commissioned to
assess the air worthiness of a fixed wing
aircraft to provide air support to Dyfed
Powys post 2014 when the current rotary
aircraft is proposed to be removed from
service. Early feedback from the trial has
been very positive with further trials
expected in the future.
Powys
In June 2012 an initial fixed wing aircraft
trial was undertaken by NPAS in Dyfed
Powys. The trial was commissioned to
assess the air worthiness of a fixed wing
aircraft to provide air support to Dyfed
Powys post 2014 when the current rotary
aircraft is proposed to be removed from
service. Early feedback from the trial has
been very positive with further trials
expected in the future.
Now steady on!
Perhaps using Dyfed-Powys is a bad example especially on the grounds of actual 24/7 availability of that unit.
OK this time they were available but the main reason that NPAS managed to get a toe hold into this business was that there were too many inconsistencies in the set up..... nearly everything that existed until last year was not planned it 'happened' and it was those chinks in the armour that gave the NPAS team a reason to exist and modify.
If every element of the air support system was well thought through in the beginning and not wasteful there would have been less grounds for what just happened.
From Day 1....... and I guess we can go back to 1934 here..... Police Air Support was some Chief Constables whim..... in 1934 it was Trenchard and the CC of Leicester [name escapes me, Lynch-Blosse was it?] .... in 1995 it was Ray White of Dyfed [and others].... each with their 'toy' that grew up [or not]. That is why some units could not actually prove a right to survive and why some were miles off 24/7 availability in their county, or needed an ambulance to give them a reason to live and breath, and in some few cases hover on the verge of financial troubles in a time of cut cut cut .... that is until the new call to arms was declared and led to the various Police Authorities wanting to stand shoulder to shoulder against losing their badged aircraft.
But how long would it have lasted beyond November? NPAS has been brewing for 6 years and yet it still survived in the face of an apparent horde of enemies.
Maybe, perhaps, no one would have truly analysed reasons to do without police air support [and its very easy to find reasons in England and Wales with fog, rain and engineering downtime to prove you CAN do police work without it] but if it had collapsed here and there your 20 minute rule would have meant nothing.... a hole in coverage would be just that, a yawning gap along county lines. Hampshire was an example..... the first to die on the NPAS altar.
Its only a personal opinion based upon looking in from the sidelines and listening to everyones opinion but I think as a best job of a difficult situation NPAS may be the devil but there may well have been worse alternatives.
Perhaps using Dyfed-Powys is a bad example especially on the grounds of actual 24/7 availability of that unit.
OK this time they were available but the main reason that NPAS managed to get a toe hold into this business was that there were too many inconsistencies in the set up..... nearly everything that existed until last year was not planned it 'happened' and it was those chinks in the armour that gave the NPAS team a reason to exist and modify.
If every element of the air support system was well thought through in the beginning and not wasteful there would have been less grounds for what just happened.
From Day 1....... and I guess we can go back to 1934 here..... Police Air Support was some Chief Constables whim..... in 1934 it was Trenchard and the CC of Leicester [name escapes me, Lynch-Blosse was it?] .... in 1995 it was Ray White of Dyfed [and others].... each with their 'toy' that grew up [or not]. That is why some units could not actually prove a right to survive and why some were miles off 24/7 availability in their county, or needed an ambulance to give them a reason to live and breath, and in some few cases hover on the verge of financial troubles in a time of cut cut cut .... that is until the new call to arms was declared and led to the various Police Authorities wanting to stand shoulder to shoulder against losing their badged aircraft.
But how long would it have lasted beyond November? NPAS has been brewing for 6 years and yet it still survived in the face of an apparent horde of enemies.
Maybe, perhaps, no one would have truly analysed reasons to do without police air support [and its very easy to find reasons in England and Wales with fog, rain and engineering downtime to prove you CAN do police work without it] but if it had collapsed here and there your 20 minute rule would have meant nothing.... a hole in coverage would be just that, a yawning gap along county lines. Hampshire was an example..... the first to die on the NPAS altar.
Its only a personal opinion based upon looking in from the sidelines and listening to everyones opinion but I think as a best job of a difficult situation NPAS may be the devil but there may well have been worse alternatives.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
At least for the moment they have a helicopter that can join in with the search, as opposed to the NPAS plan to replace it with a fixed wing. In case it has been missed, at a time when this fixed wing would be needed most, like now, it would be no use whatsoever because of both the weather and terrain !!
Otherwise we'd be seeing a fixed wing down there NOW, which of course there isn't, because of the weather and terrain....point made!
Otherwise we'd be seeing a fixed wing down there NOW, which of course there isn't, because of the weather and terrain....point made!
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: In a world of my own!
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SS
This is proof of a lack of understanding. IF this sad incident occurred in the future and IF The rotary wing a/c is replaced with a fixed wing there would still be two rotary wing aircraft overhead. The fixed wing may have been deployed elsewhere to backfill the two rotary wings. This is proper border less tasking. This forum is full of doubters who shout and moan the loudest the think that comments like point made mean exactly that. Give it a chance, heaven forbid but it may just turn out to be the saving of air support in England and Wales. As PA says may just be the best of the set of options.
At least for the moment they have a helicopter that can join in with the search, as opposed to the NPAS plan to replace it with a fixed wing. In case it has been missed, at a time when this fixed wing would be needed most, like now, it would be no use whatsoever because of both the weather and terrain !!
Otherwise we'd be seeing a fixed wing down there NOW, which of course there isn't, because of the weather and terrain....point made!
Otherwise we'd be seeing a fixed wing down there NOW, which of course there isn't, because of the weather and terrain....point made!
Guest
Posts: n/a
To be brutally honest.
This incident is a poor example of how air support is utilised/judged.
This type of incident is in the one percent of high profile/high publicity type jobs, that with or without NPAS (without as it stands at the mo) a/c would be tasked to attend from wherever.
It's a sad fact, but true, that the a/c in attendance in wales are highly unlikely to find this child, whatever the circumstances are there. And it's down primarily to police work and boots on the ground to resolve it.
Yes there's a role for a/c, and yes the crews will be trying their utmost in the search. But we all know how difficult it's going to be.
The inefficiencies mentioned by PA should've been ironed out years ago. We need to judge the success of a unit, and in the future, NPAS, not just on how many searches are "attended".
Not how many incidents are "attended"...
But on actual results.
ie. direct ARRESTS
Vehicles LOCATED
Missing persons FOUND
not on how many boxes get ticked.
This incident is a poor example of how air support is utilised/judged.
This type of incident is in the one percent of high profile/high publicity type jobs, that with or without NPAS (without as it stands at the mo) a/c would be tasked to attend from wherever.
It's a sad fact, but true, that the a/c in attendance in wales are highly unlikely to find this child, whatever the circumstances are there. And it's down primarily to police work and boots on the ground to resolve it.
Yes there's a role for a/c, and yes the crews will be trying their utmost in the search. But we all know how difficult it's going to be.
The inefficiencies mentioned by PA should've been ironed out years ago. We need to judge the success of a unit, and in the future, NPAS, not just on how many searches are "attended".
Not how many incidents are "attended"...
But on actual results.
ie. direct ARRESTS
Vehicles LOCATED
Missing persons FOUND
not on how many boxes get ticked.
Tightgit
Sorry Morris, I don't agree with you on your judgement of success.
If you are tasked to search a particular area and you fail to find what you are looking for then either
You didn't search well enough
The person or item you were looking for was too well hidden or
The person or item you were looking for was never there when you arrived to commence the search.
Hopefully in all of those cases, what you did do was let the officers on the ground move on to the next task in their never ending list of tasks, satisfied that the area you searched has now been cleared. With the best will in the world, some containments fail before air support arrives. Arrests are a nice bonus but they are not and should not be a judgement of the success or failure of a task.
If you are tasked to search a particular area and you fail to find what you are looking for then either
You didn't search well enough
The person or item you were looking for was too well hidden or
The person or item you were looking for was never there when you arrived to commence the search.
Hopefully in all of those cases, what you did do was let the officers on the ground move on to the next task in their never ending list of tasks, satisfied that the area you searched has now been cleared. With the best will in the world, some containments fail before air support arrives. Arrests are a nice bonus but they are not and should not be a judgement of the success or failure of a task.
Last edited by handysnaks; 2nd Oct 2012 at 13:29.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
morris1
ROFLMAOWSTOTK
We need to judge the success of a unit, and in the future, NPAS, not just on how many searches are "attended".
Not how many incidents are "attended"...
But on actual results.
ie. direct ARRESTS
Vehicles LOCATED
Missing persons FOUND
not on how many boxes get ticked.
Not how many incidents are "attended"...
But on actual results.
ie. direct ARRESTS
Vehicles LOCATED
Missing persons FOUND
not on how many boxes get ticked.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Guys.
RTFQ.
I said ASUs shouldn't be judged "JUST" on incidents attended...!!
I agree with you totally about clearing open areas and allowing ground cops to move on. Bang on, I'm with you.
What I'm saying is.
You ALSO should be measuring the other stuff.. not ignoring it.
If there are big differences between units or teams within units then someone needs to ask questions.
So yes:
Measure the ticky box work..
But. "A L S O" ......
Don't lose sight of the fact that police work also means locking up bad guys.
And when we measure the success of NPAS we need to "A L S O" measure the arrests, vehicles, mispers etc FOUND by them. Not just how many empty fields were cleared.
Otherwise it may as well be G4S operating the a/c..
RTFQ.
I said ASUs shouldn't be judged "JUST" on incidents attended...!!
I agree with you totally about clearing open areas and allowing ground cops to move on. Bang on, I'm with you.
What I'm saying is.
You ALSO should be measuring the other stuff.. not ignoring it.
If there are big differences between units or teams within units then someone needs to ask questions.
So yes:
Measure the ticky box work..
But. "A L S O" ......
Don't lose sight of the fact that police work also means locking up bad guys.
And when we measure the success of NPAS we need to "A L S O" measure the arrests, vehicles, mispers etc FOUND by them. Not just how many empty fields were cleared.
Otherwise it may as well be G4S operating the a/c..
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Mmm, I guess like most I read your post...
...to read;
'The only jobs that count are the ones with solid results', because the box tickers, don't really count.'
I don't know about how others feel when doing one of your 'simple box ticking jobs', maybe a missing child or burglars in the country or runners from a job 20 mins old, but I tend to think and occasionally say out loud... 'The bobbies think they are down there somewhere, so lets find them!'
Sometimes the odd box ticker brings results!!!
On a different train of thought, the ability to tick the 'air support called' box, is better than that box not being there to tick!!
We need to judge the success of a unit, and in the future, NPAS, not just on how many searches are "attended".
Not how many incidents are "attended"...
But on actual results.
ie. direct ARRESTS
Vehicles LOCATED
Missing persons FOUND
not on how many boxes get ticked.
Not how many incidents are "attended"...
But on actual results.
ie. direct ARRESTS
Vehicles LOCATED
Missing persons FOUND
not on how many boxes get ticked.
'The only jobs that count are the ones with solid results', because the box tickers, don't really count.'
I don't know about how others feel when doing one of your 'simple box ticking jobs', maybe a missing child or burglars in the country or runners from a job 20 mins old, but I tend to think and occasionally say out loud... 'The bobbies think they are down there somewhere, so lets find them!'
Sometimes the odd box ticker brings results!!!
On a different train of thought, the ability to tick the 'air support called' box, is better than that box not being there to tick!!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Well you put your personal spin on it then.
It clearly reads "just".
You can cut and paste it and quote it as many times as you like. But it's still there. I just didn't underline it or put it in bold for those that may read past it.
One could read from your post that your encouraging your crew to fly unviable jobs and influencing the decision making of those that "should" be making the deployment decisions, and thus have brought down the efficiency of your unit and perhaps been part of the problem that has allowed NPAS to come in and units to be closed. One could read and ask, how many viable jobs have you missed out on when flying on week jobs with little or no chance of success. Yes we all get lucky spots every now and then. But that's the TFOs job to spot the viable flights rather than an excuse to blow the cobwebs off.
But you didn't write any of that. So that's not what I've read...!
The point was.
NPAS will be far removed from what we do now.
But let's not use that as an excuse to not measure it against how we perform now.
The goal here is to show the bean counters how effective we are as cops in helicopters. They'll need ALL the info. Not JUST the spin that NPAS will put out.
I wrote JUST in big letters, in case it got missed.
It clearly reads "just".
You can cut and paste it and quote it as many times as you like. But it's still there. I just didn't underline it or put it in bold for those that may read past it.
One could read from your post that your encouraging your crew to fly unviable jobs and influencing the decision making of those that "should" be making the deployment decisions, and thus have brought down the efficiency of your unit and perhaps been part of the problem that has allowed NPAS to come in and units to be closed. One could read and ask, how many viable jobs have you missed out on when flying on week jobs with little or no chance of success. Yes we all get lucky spots every now and then. But that's the TFOs job to spot the viable flights rather than an excuse to blow the cobwebs off.
But you didn't write any of that. So that's not what I've read...!
The point was.
NPAS will be far removed from what we do now.
But let's not use that as an excuse to not measure it against how we perform now.
The goal here is to show the bean counters how effective we are as cops in helicopters. They'll need ALL the info. Not JUST the spin that NPAS will put out.
I wrote JUST in big letters, in case it got missed.
Last edited by morris1; 2nd Oct 2012 at 17:20.