UK NPAS discussion: thread Mk 2
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Well WF I work at a CASU unit that is going and proud to say that we always looked for excuses to launch and add something to an incident. I find your comments about units considering themselves as private flying clubs as very offensive.
So put your head above the wall now and tell us all which ASU is super duper that you can insults others
So put your head above the wall now and tell us all which ASU is super duper that you can insults others
I am a little confused as to why WFs statement that....
"The days of nice little private flying cubs are over...." is causing so much concern.
Those days are now over, that is a correct statement and it was one that could be levelled at a number of units in the past [no names no pack drill].
I would say that recent developments in setting up NPAS have rubbed out the last of the so called "flying clubs" but I can pinpoint a number of periods where certain UK operations were described as exactly that [by people on this thread].
If WF had made that statement in the present tense that would be a different matter.
Too sensitive by far!
"The days of nice little private flying cubs are over...." is causing so much concern.
Those days are now over, that is a correct statement and it was one that could be levelled at a number of units in the past [no names no pack drill].
I would say that recent developments in setting up NPAS have rubbed out the last of the so called "flying clubs" but I can pinpoint a number of periods where certain UK operations were described as exactly that [by people on this thread].
If WF had made that statement in the present tense that would be a different matter.
Too sensitive by far!
Sorry PA news!
Sorry PA News, but I don't accept your last post.
I can accept that several years ago ( And here I am talking mid 90's) there were a couple of units who owed their existance to a Senior officers whim, and as a result were less hungry for good arrests and good jobs than others.
But we didn't live in a closed silo, and units with that sort of mentality soon found themselves being shaken up, and had to work hard to earn their corn. By the start of the new century they had all been put under the microscope and in the main were pretty much on the ball. By that stage it had become my job to visit most of them on a commercial basis, and from my own observations I would state that there were very few that wern't hungry for action.
It is too easy to cast mud now that the die is cast, but explain if you can why some of the best were the ones to be taken down. I never got the impression that Merseyside or South Yorkshire were coasting. nor Chilterns North. Several of the others also under sentence of death were working hard too.
What was there was a good framework, not perfect by any means and even I would have made changes, but the body was capable of being revitalised. But now after the draconion bloodletting of about 30% of hardware & bases, and also the dreadful terms and conditions that are currently being forced upon the workforce, I am not as confident as you clearly are, that all in the garden will be lovely. New observers will still be beating a path to the door will they?
They were initially called Air Support Units, later it became fashionable to call them Air Operations Units. I rather think that that might just have been a mistake. We originally started the whole thing off to SUPPORT the officers on the ground who were having a pretty torrid time of it.
What really does worry me is this. With the advantage of rapid air support now denied to the officer on the ground, will moral remain as high? Will assualts increase? What will be the effect on Public disorder issues? The helicopter with its very effective camera was a deterent. You are obviously confident that NPAS will not reduce any of the advantages that we had. I wish that I was as confidant!
tigerfish
I can accept that several years ago ( And here I am talking mid 90's) there were a couple of units who owed their existance to a Senior officers whim, and as a result were less hungry for good arrests and good jobs than others.
But we didn't live in a closed silo, and units with that sort of mentality soon found themselves being shaken up, and had to work hard to earn their corn. By the start of the new century they had all been put under the microscope and in the main were pretty much on the ball. By that stage it had become my job to visit most of them on a commercial basis, and from my own observations I would state that there were very few that wern't hungry for action.
It is too easy to cast mud now that the die is cast, but explain if you can why some of the best were the ones to be taken down. I never got the impression that Merseyside or South Yorkshire were coasting. nor Chilterns North. Several of the others also under sentence of death were working hard too.
What was there was a good framework, not perfect by any means and even I would have made changes, but the body was capable of being revitalised. But now after the draconion bloodletting of about 30% of hardware & bases, and also the dreadful terms and conditions that are currently being forced upon the workforce, I am not as confident as you clearly are, that all in the garden will be lovely. New observers will still be beating a path to the door will they?
They were initially called Air Support Units, later it became fashionable to call them Air Operations Units. I rather think that that might just have been a mistake. We originally started the whole thing off to SUPPORT the officers on the ground who were having a pretty torrid time of it.
What really does worry me is this. With the advantage of rapid air support now denied to the officer on the ground, will moral remain as high? Will assualts increase? What will be the effect on Public disorder issues? The helicopter with its very effective camera was a deterent. You are obviously confident that NPAS will not reduce any of the advantages that we had. I wish that I was as confidant!
tigerfish
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At last a reasoned well thought out response, not one shot from the hip after a quick read of a post. thank you PAN.
I have lots of Police and ASU service and have seen these cyclical things come and go, but now is the first time in 25+ years that I have seen staff made redundant and departments closing, we are in a scary new world and we don't like it, myself included.
As I have said previously though, like it or not we have to live with it.
I have lots of Police and ASU service and have seen these cyclical things come and go, but now is the first time in 25+ years that I have seen staff made redundant and departments closing, we are in a scary new world and we don't like it, myself included.
As I have said previously though, like it or not we have to live with it.
Fortyodd2!
Good point! What I actually meant was I suppose the "Controllers" of NPAS, >"the suits" at the Home Office.
To them leadership is a lost art. Although I suppose even that is a misnomer because I doubt if many of them know what leadership is. They would not recognise it if it smacked them around the face with a wet kipper.
It used to be something the service valued. But today political correctness is much more important.
tigerfish
Good point! What I actually meant was I suppose the "Controllers" of NPAS, >"the suits" at the Home Office.
To them leadership is a lost art. Although I suppose even that is a misnomer because I doubt if many of them know what leadership is. They would not recognise it if it smacked them around the face with a wet kipper.
It used to be something the service valued. But today political correctness is much more important.
tigerfish
WF
I don't doubt that things are cyclical.
I don't doubt that it's a new world.
I don't doubt that many find it scary.
I don't doubt that this is the way that things will move.
I don't doubt that we will have to work in new ways.
I don't even doubt that NPAS will all eventually work out very well.
What I do doubt is that you will ever convince me that the men and women who have worked so hard in whatever capacity to make UK Air Support something of which we can all be proud, deserve to be told that they "don't need to worry about results, that's for someone else to consider".
That is an insult and this is my reasoned and well thought out personal response after a thorough reading and re-reading of your post.
You may know a great deal about Air Support, you may know all about NPAS and comprehensive spending reviews but you know nothing of the people who care so much about what they do every day to help protect not only the public they serve but the bobbies they support. I know how little you understand them because the one thing that I will never doubt is their commitment to providing the very best service that they are capable of within whatever framework they are required to operate.
I don't doubt that things are cyclical.
I don't doubt that it's a new world.
I don't doubt that many find it scary.
I don't doubt that this is the way that things will move.
I don't doubt that we will have to work in new ways.
I don't even doubt that NPAS will all eventually work out very well.
What I do doubt is that you will ever convince me that the men and women who have worked so hard in whatever capacity to make UK Air Support something of which we can all be proud, deserve to be told that they "don't need to worry about results, that's for someone else to consider".
That is an insult and this is my reasoned and well thought out personal response after a thorough reading and re-reading of your post.
You may know a great deal about Air Support, you may know all about NPAS and comprehensive spending reviews but you know nothing of the people who care so much about what they do every day to help protect not only the public they serve but the bobbies they support. I know how little you understand them because the one thing that I will never doubt is their commitment to providing the very best service that they are capable of within whatever framework they are required to operate.
Last edited by J.A.F.O.; 14th Aug 2012 at 10:30. Reason: To remove an incorrectly placed word.
Tigerfish,
I do not accept that kick back. It is plain English, the days of the flying club police aviation unit are over. Past tense. Thats what he said and whether it relates to 1970 [when they started], 1980 [when a few got out of flying club mode], 1990 [when more got into reality], 2000 or more recently that statement holds good as a peice of English recalling where many units passed through at some time in their development.
Nothing to do with the rest of your post .... but as you raised the point of 'torrid times' I think a little reality needs to be inserted here. Air support today has come on in leaps and bounds and capabilities and I guess we might claim without having to bite tongues too much that the air cover is available 24/7/365.
But it isn't is it? And never was, like the perfect dog search.
It got better as time went on and more units launched but when fuel ran low on that aircraft circling you because the weather was good and they could pick you out with the SX16 you returned to 'torrid times' and got on with the job alone secure in the knowledge that it was 2155hrs and they were off duty in five..... but suddenly you needed permission to go on overtime they were never going to get...
We survived, just as we did when the rain rained and the fog drew in.... or it was Sunday....
The first part of that last paragraph is universal even today and variations of 2155hrs are not yet dead and buried. Plod on the ground enters the 'Torrid Zone' at 0255hrs most days of the week somewhere in the UK today just as much as we did in historical times!
And I can still hear the disturbing rustles and padded feet in the undergrowth in the early hours as I 'surrounded' a wood.....
OK we are mainly talking history here but so was WF
I do not accept that kick back. It is plain English, the days of the flying club police aviation unit are over. Past tense. Thats what he said and whether it relates to 1970 [when they started], 1980 [when a few got out of flying club mode], 1990 [when more got into reality], 2000 or more recently that statement holds good as a peice of English recalling where many units passed through at some time in their development.
Nothing to do with the rest of your post .... but as you raised the point of 'torrid times' I think a little reality needs to be inserted here. Air support today has come on in leaps and bounds and capabilities and I guess we might claim without having to bite tongues too much that the air cover is available 24/7/365.
But it isn't is it? And never was, like the perfect dog search.
It got better as time went on and more units launched but when fuel ran low on that aircraft circling you because the weather was good and they could pick you out with the SX16 you returned to 'torrid times' and got on with the job alone secure in the knowledge that it was 2155hrs and they were off duty in five..... but suddenly you needed permission to go on overtime they were never going to get...
We survived, just as we did when the rain rained and the fog drew in.... or it was Sunday....
The first part of that last paragraph is universal even today and variations of 2155hrs are not yet dead and buried. Plod on the ground enters the 'Torrid Zone' at 0255hrs most days of the week somewhere in the UK today just as much as we did in historical times!
And I can still hear the disturbing rustles and padded feet in the undergrowth in the early hours as I 'surrounded' a wood.....
OK we are mainly talking history here but so was WF
PA News,
I think you are still missing my point. OK there may have been a time long ago that one or two units might have fallen under the heading of flying clubs. But by 2005 they had long gone and the UK Police Aviation scene was pretty much well on the ball.
Then came along Mr Hogan Howe, who produced a report which appeared to seek to address the ills of long ago. It was I think, originally an attempt to increase efficiency through a National Police Air Unit. But it was not adopted. Then later the Home Office looked at the report again, and realised that it provided an opportunity to save shed loads of money. To hell with increased efficiency! This was ALL about saving money. NPAS was the result!
Going back to the flying club theme, what would your reaction be if you saw your doctor tomorrow, and he said to you "You had high blood pressure 25 years ago and we really must do something about it now"
In relation to my comment about "torrid times" I was referring to the days when our Cities were suffering riots and general public order problems.
Air support played its part in stopping that cancer. Note, - I said played its part. I did not say that it was solely responsible. But I do know because I was there, that the pictures and video that we took over one of our major flair ups, did help to convict many culprits and did prevent further occurences.
Now the problem that I have with this Govt is that they like others before them, have very short memories. "Oh its quiet now the problem has gone away so lets get rid of all the expensive kit that gave us safety. the problem will never come back, & if it does, surely it will only take a couple of weeks to bring it all back".
Its the same bloody mentality that can say to our armed forces. Hey guy's you did a bloody good job out there, were really proud of you! We are going to weep real (crocodile) tears because of your suffering. - By the way here's your P45!
But I repeat what is needed now is Leadership! We are where we are. NPAS is a fact and it will not go away. It can work if it is seen to be fighting to preserve the terms and conditions that are in the interests of its operational crews. It can work if it points out to the Home Office and ACPO that what it is being forced to do is not condusive to a successful outcome. In short it can work if it discovers LEADERSHIP.
tigerfish
I think you are still missing my point. OK there may have been a time long ago that one or two units might have fallen under the heading of flying clubs. But by 2005 they had long gone and the UK Police Aviation scene was pretty much well on the ball.
Then came along Mr Hogan Howe, who produced a report which appeared to seek to address the ills of long ago. It was I think, originally an attempt to increase efficiency through a National Police Air Unit. But it was not adopted. Then later the Home Office looked at the report again, and realised that it provided an opportunity to save shed loads of money. To hell with increased efficiency! This was ALL about saving money. NPAS was the result!
Going back to the flying club theme, what would your reaction be if you saw your doctor tomorrow, and he said to you "You had high blood pressure 25 years ago and we really must do something about it now"
In relation to my comment about "torrid times" I was referring to the days when our Cities were suffering riots and general public order problems.
Air support played its part in stopping that cancer. Note, - I said played its part. I did not say that it was solely responsible. But I do know because I was there, that the pictures and video that we took over one of our major flair ups, did help to convict many culprits and did prevent further occurences.
Now the problem that I have with this Govt is that they like others before them, have very short memories. "Oh its quiet now the problem has gone away so lets get rid of all the expensive kit that gave us safety. the problem will never come back, & if it does, surely it will only take a couple of weeks to bring it all back".
Its the same bloody mentality that can say to our armed forces. Hey guy's you did a bloody good job out there, were really proud of you! We are going to weep real (crocodile) tears because of your suffering. - By the way here's your P45!
But I repeat what is needed now is Leadership! We are where we are. NPAS is a fact and it will not go away. It can work if it is seen to be fighting to preserve the terms and conditions that are in the interests of its operational crews. It can work if it points out to the Home Office and ACPO that what it is being forced to do is not condusive to a successful outcome. In short it can work if it discovers LEADERSHIP.
tigerfish
Last edited by tigerfish; 14th Aug 2012 at 07:16.
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Landed at a hospital HLS in Aintree recently. Because of the risk we have to have security on site when we land. Got talking to the bobby and was not surprised when he told me "we dont bother calling for the helicopter these days, it either didnt come or took too long to be any use". This is a bobby who works ...................... Norris Green, gun capital of Europe. 
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Mersyside would be a good place to collect data on the possible effects of NPAS.
They have lost an aircraft from Liverpool, and the others carry out cross border ops as a matter of course. It's almost a mini NPAS and it's pretty much running now.
How has the crime rate changed?
How effective has it been getting an aircraft on scene in time?
Do the boys on the ground even bother calling for air support?
Do they feel more or less confident in their air support?
Surely these questions can be answered fairly easily, if anyone cared to ask them, officially.
They have lost an aircraft from Liverpool, and the others carry out cross border ops as a matter of course. It's almost a mini NPAS and it's pretty much running now.
How has the crime rate changed?
How effective has it been getting an aircraft on scene in time?
Do the boys on the ground even bother calling for air support?
Do they feel more or less confident in their air support?
Surely these questions can be answered fairly easily, if anyone cared to ask them, officially.
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My quote
was well thought through and well considered by me before I wrote it. I still hold it true.
When Air Support is no longer tasked centrally every job will be a 'go' we will have no option to select jobs that we think we will get a result from(which is a basic tasking criteria). In which case our results will undoubtedly drop off.
As individuals at units we will just become like the beat bobby, radio goes we attend. That is where my much observed quote comes in, we will have to get to the point where we "don't need to worry about results, that's for someone else to consider" because if we don't we will drive ourselves mad. We will have to learn to live by this, for NPAS a result will be, our aircraft attended within the given time.
The Police service very rarely publish arrest figures, they just deal with response times, did the Police arrive on time that's all. So be realistic, do you really think that at Command level they really worry how many people are arrested each day other that the impact it has on custody? They are more worried about, did they make the 9's was the phone answered on time, or the main figure the public seem interested about, the detection rate.
I respect the views of ever poster here, my post with that quote has sparked a debate, that's what is missing with NPAS, there is no debate. Sadly on Pprune the debate only starts when more considered opinions come along. I did laugh at the Englebert and packet of maltesers comment though.
If you don't think the world has changed, turn on the news more. Watch a program like Newsnight, read a paper (a real one) or better still engage in a debate once in a while.
On a final note, I a not a Sir, I have been very careful throughout to not give away my gender, grade or race, it has a way of polarising a debate that I don't want to get into.
What I will say, is I will ( hopefully) be part of NPAS, though not a big part. I will turn up get changed, go to calls and go home. I will,work hard because that is what I am paid to do. I will not go home and worry that we did not get a result because I have matured enough to realise that they all 'will come again'
I look forward to the sensible debate, this post will create.
"don't need to worry about results, that's for someone else to consider"
When Air Support is no longer tasked centrally every job will be a 'go' we will have no option to select jobs that we think we will get a result from(which is a basic tasking criteria). In which case our results will undoubtedly drop off.
As individuals at units we will just become like the beat bobby, radio goes we attend. That is where my much observed quote comes in, we will have to get to the point where we "don't need to worry about results, that's for someone else to consider" because if we don't we will drive ourselves mad. We will have to learn to live by this, for NPAS a result will be, our aircraft attended within the given time.
The Police service very rarely publish arrest figures, they just deal with response times, did the Police arrive on time that's all. So be realistic, do you really think that at Command level they really worry how many people are arrested each day other that the impact it has on custody? They are more worried about, did they make the 9's was the phone answered on time, or the main figure the public seem interested about, the detection rate.
I respect the views of ever poster here, my post with that quote has sparked a debate, that's what is missing with NPAS, there is no debate. Sadly on Pprune the debate only starts when more considered opinions come along. I did laugh at the Englebert and packet of maltesers comment though.
If you don't think the world has changed, turn on the news more. Watch a program like Newsnight, read a paper (a real one) or better still engage in a debate once in a while.
On a final note, I a not a Sir, I have been very careful throughout to not give away my gender, grade or race, it has a way of polarising a debate that I don't want to get into.
What I will say, is I will ( hopefully) be part of NPAS, though not a big part. I will turn up get changed, go to calls and go home. I will,work hard because that is what I am paid to do. I will not go home and worry that we did not get a result because I have matured enough to realise that they all 'will come again'
I look forward to the sensible debate, this post will create.
WF, you have your opinion and I have mine; they need not agree, in fact that is the very essence of debate. I just hope that you don't find my views insulting and condescending. I am sure that time will tell that you have made a great number of very valid points but it would take a better person than I to discern them at present.
I think that we have had our debate and I wish you all the best for the future but am unable to share your model of the world.
I think that we have had our debate and I wish you all the best for the future but am unable to share your model of the world.
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WF. Just because you are of the opinion that a job is not worth attending does not make it a bad job, it just demonstrates an arrogance that is quite unhealthy. And after being told to attend a job not giving a hoot about the results of that job is, in my view, a dereliction of the responsibilities of the attending crew to the Bobbies on the ground. This is of course only my opinion and forms part of a larger debate I am sure.
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Fly 4 fun
I have never said that jobs are not worth attending, neither have I said that I will attend calls and not give 100%. What I have said is, I will not tear myself appart with worry that we didn't get a result.
We can debate this all day but it's like debating the sunrise, it's gonna happen.
I have never said that jobs are not worth attending, neither have I said that I will attend calls and not give 100%. What I have said is, I will not tear myself appart with worry that we didn't get a result.
We can debate this all day but it's like debating the sunrise, it's gonna happen.
Last edited by Wagging Finger; 16th Aug 2012 at 18:37.
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.... it's like debating the sunrise, it's gonna happen ....
Sure, it will still happen,
but it won't be anything like the beautiful sunrise that was forecast !
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
We can debate this all day but it's like debating the sunrise, it's gonna happen.
Uh umm, the Sun doesn't rise, the Earth rotates
