UK NPAS discussion: thread Mk 2
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That's an interesting requirement of the post 
It sort of says, in not so many words, "You can only have a job with NPAS as long as you are "on board",
and don't go moaning about how the original spin of Improved efficiency
and reduced costs has actually turned into less efficient and more expensive etc etc etc.
Bet there's some more gems in the rest of the job description too
It sort of says, in not so many words, "You can only have a job with NPAS as long as you are "on board",
and don't go moaning about how the original spin of Improved efficiency
and reduced costs has actually turned into less efficient and more expensive etc etc etc.
Bet there's some more gems in the rest of the job description too
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After seeing the proposed observer shift patterns I can't believe many would have much good to say about NPAS.
Actually, if they do stick to the proposed shift pattern for the 19 hour bases they may struggle to retain observers at all.... whoever drafted that pattern seems to be under the illusion the observers live purely to come to work... And will never suffer fatigue!
Actually, if they do stick to the proposed shift pattern for the 19 hour bases they may struggle to retain observers at all.... whoever drafted that pattern seems to be under the illusion the observers live purely to come to work... And will never suffer fatigue!
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Having seen some of the neighbourhood policing shift patterns, I'll stick with the NPAS 19 hour one thanks, I'd rather be happy with job satisfaction and tired than undervalued, overworker and tired!! Oh and I know I will be finishing on time with ASU.
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It depends on the personal situation and your force shift patterns you will return to, personally, I have a family and I know me being at work 7 days/ nights in a row on the npas pattern will not go down well at all at home!
There are some good points raised on the Polka forum in the rosters topic... Such as the current resourcing being so frugal there is insufficient cover for everyone to take their leave, and reverting to 7 days on duty goes against all advice on staff health and well being.
There are some good points raised on the Polka forum in the rosters topic... Such as the current resourcing being so frugal there is insufficient cover for everyone to take their leave, and reverting to 7 days on duty goes against all advice on staff health and well being.
Just found out that TVP will be paying more under NPAS for 1 Aircraft than they did under CASU for 2 Aircraft
they may struggle to retain observers
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Just found out that TVP will be paying more under NPAS for 1 Aircraft than they did under CASU for 2 Aircraft
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Perceptions
Wagging, when a task comes up only one aircraft will be despatched.
TVP will be paying for just that response not 23 responses. Because of the central control system that aircraft will inevitably get on scene late, and not in a position to offer a resolution. The force will end up paying for transit times and will not benefit from the marvelous 'service' that the 2 TVP aircraft and the crews now give those forces, that area and the very important - public.
Your arguments are all 'politically correct' - blinkered, and not necessarily accurate, as were your observations about TFO's v neighbourhood policing. You will probably find no officer on the beat willing to stay an extra 5 hours collating digital evidence for no pay and no benefits other than, love of the job and the realisation that air support counts and brings in prisoners etc - results.
And that is - priceless, and that is going to be lost.....
TVP will be paying for just that response not 23 responses. Because of the central control system that aircraft will inevitably get on scene late, and not in a position to offer a resolution. The force will end up paying for transit times and will not benefit from the marvelous 'service' that the 2 TVP aircraft and the crews now give those forces, that area and the very important - public.
Your arguments are all 'politically correct' - blinkered, and not necessarily accurate, as were your observations about TFO's v neighbourhood policing. You will probably find no officer on the beat willing to stay an extra 5 hours collating digital evidence for no pay and no benefits other than, love of the job and the realisation that air support counts and brings in prisoners etc - results.
And that is - priceless, and that is going to be lost.....
Last edited by Gas Generator; 12th Aug 2012 at 09:15.
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If NPAS is doing 'borderless tasking' surely that means that TVP like all other forces is actually paying for 23 aircraft, not one?
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GG
Sadly that is very wrong, it was pricey not priceless, given the current cuts ongoing with the Comprehensive Spending Review and the next round of CSR coming that will be the same or worse cuts do you really think that Air Support would have survived in its current form?
I strongly believe that there are units out there that would not survive if it wasn't for NPAS. Your comment about only one aircraft being tasked is correct, but it will be the nearest aircraft (that may already be in flight) that will be sent from a pool of 23 possible options, if the local aircraft is tech then that would normally mean little or no air support.
It's time that some people took their heads out of the sand(or elsewhere for that matter) and realised change is coming, live with it or move on. The days of nice little private flying cubs are over, we will have to earn our money now. We don't need to worry about results, that's for someone else to consider.
As regards TFO's V Neighbourhood policing that is for each of us to decide, the grass is not always greener on the other side, it's just cut different.
I don't like to think of my comments as politically correct, just well considered and thought out, I prefer to work with fact rather than rumour, perhaps I'm in the wrong place.
And that is - priceless, and that is going to be lost.....
I strongly believe that there are units out there that would not survive if it wasn't for NPAS. Your comment about only one aircraft being tasked is correct, but it will be the nearest aircraft (that may already be in flight) that will be sent from a pool of 23 possible options, if the local aircraft is tech then that would normally mean little or no air support.
It's time that some people took their heads out of the sand(or elsewhere for that matter) and realised change is coming, live with it or move on. The days of nice little private flying cubs are over, we will have to earn our money now. We don't need to worry about results, that's for someone else to consider.
As regards TFO's V Neighbourhood policing that is for each of us to decide, the grass is not always greener on the other side, it's just cut different.
I don't like to think of my comments as politically correct, just well considered and thought out, I prefer to work with fact rather than rumour, perhaps I'm in the wrong place.
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but it will be the nearest aircraft (that may already be in flight) that will be sent from a pool of 23 possible options
Then how many out of the ones lift will be off line due to Tech issues?
Not a lot left to play with me thinks?
So the nearest Aircraft that may be flying (In the wrong direction) that could be sent to the task will more than likely be more than the 20 minutes flying time from the job in hand!!
Good planning, NOT
We don't need to worry about results, that's for someone else to consider.
Cheers, Wagging Finger, I don't quite know how to thank you.
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GG
It's time that some people took their heads out of the sand(or elsewhere for that matter) and realised change is coming, live with it or move on. The days of nice little private flying cubs are over, we will have to earn our money now. We don't need to worry about results, that's for someone else to consider.
It's time that some people took their heads out of the sand(or elsewhere for that matter) and realised change is coming, live with it or move on. The days of nice little private flying cubs are over, we will have to earn our money now. We don't need to worry about results, that's for someone else to consider.
Most of us have actually been working very hard and earning our money, and then some...
And I don't go with the old "we're all in it together" crap.
I've seen which units/depts have been ring fenced.
Some are more equal than others.
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This place is best for YOU
Wagging
You are in the right place, as long as your not in NPAS, or running it.
"Private Flying Clubs" - you are way,way out of order, as is your give away comment about not worrying about results. Virtually all of the proud and hard-working people in air support actually 'care' about the service to the public - that's what it is all about Wagging.
If you were running the Olympics Wagging, you would have paid for one song from Englebert and a packet of party poppers - because that was value for money and it was for 'someone else' to worry about the result.
You just don't get it do you?
You are in the right place, as long as your not in NPAS, or running it.
"Private Flying Clubs" - you are way,way out of order, as is your give away comment about not worrying about results. Virtually all of the proud and hard-working people in air support actually 'care' about the service to the public - that's what it is all about Wagging.
If you were running the Olympics Wagging, you would have paid for one song from Englebert and a packet of party poppers - because that was value for money and it was for 'someone else' to worry about the result.
You just don't get it do you?
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Sorry WF you don't seem to grasp the physics of Air Support. The helicopter is just like Hems it saves money every-time it's in the air due to its force-multiplier.
It won't be long before the cry for proper Air Support goes out again and another person will make his career by re-introducing it.
If you wanted real savings in Air Support, all it would have taken is one man and his secretary.
All I say is "mini-tender".
It won't be long before the cry for proper Air Support goes out again and another person will make his career by re-introducing it.
If you wanted real savings in Air Support, all it would have taken is one man and his secretary.
All I say is "mini-tender".
but it will be the nearest aircraft (that may already be in flight) that will be sent from a pool of 23 possible options
As for flying clubs.
Wagging Finger!
WF. Of all the crass and stupid comments that I have seen over the past 10 years or so reading pprune, your last comment just about takes the biscuit!
Firstly, you dismiss the hard working units that built UK Police Air Support from nothing in the mid eighties, to being a world beaters by 2004, calling them nothing more than flying clubs.
Then you parade "borderless" policing as being some new concept! Well I wrote my first paper on the subject of Police Air Support at Bramshill in 1984, and became increasingly involved in air support over the next 15 years until I retired from the service in 1999. During all of that time, I never came across a police air unit that refused to attend a serious incident in another county, or whilst during a chase or a search, came to a shuddering halt at an invisible boundry because they were going out of area. It is true to say that UK Police air units were an object lesson in inter force co-operation. For NPAS to to claim that they have introduced borderless policing is nothing short of an insult!
I'm out of it now, - (more's the pity but the years were rolling on). But I am proud of all those guys and gals too, who gave their everything to make air support work. And what did they get for it? A load of crap from some spotty faced youth in the Home Office and probably NPAS too, who decided that the air observer is not a front line officer and should not be paid accordingly.
No matter that the Observer is there to ensure that we all get the best bang for our buck out of that admittedly expensive piece of kit up there. The aircraft is only as good as its crew, and if you want to turn them into a dis spirited and unenthusiastic team, then you are going the right way about it.
This whole farce is the result of a chronic lack of leadership. HMG deliberately set up NPAS using people who knew nothing about the subject. They did it that way because they wanted to be in total control, which would have been challenged if they used experienced and skilled leaders.
Sadly we are now all starting to reap what they sowed. Confusion and disenchantment.
NPAS is here to stay, and I pray that it will soon start to become effective, but it cannot do that unless its leaders have the B***s to turn on their stupid leaders at the HO, and point out what a mess their policies are producing.
Someone needs to remember that "This is a front line Police resource" and should be operated and deployed accordingly. It is there to combat crime of all types, not just for pre planned and major events. It has a strong element of providing vital support and safety to officers on the ground. Its greatest weapon lies in its speed of arrival overhead the incident, and as a result any delay built into its method of deployment, has a far greater potential to waste money than almost anything else.
Sadly I write this knowing that no-one at NPAS or the Home Office will listen. They are set on their path towards ineffectiveness and I doubt that anything will shift them now. All attention is set on the next promotion or even the QPM. You don't get that for rocking the boat!
I don't know 'cos it was even before my time, but I guess it must be a bit like it was in the mid 1930's when the Gov't were intent on reducing the RAF. They wouldn't listen then either.
tigerfish
Firstly, you dismiss the hard working units that built UK Police Air Support from nothing in the mid eighties, to being a world beaters by 2004, calling them nothing more than flying clubs.
Then you parade "borderless" policing as being some new concept! Well I wrote my first paper on the subject of Police Air Support at Bramshill in 1984, and became increasingly involved in air support over the next 15 years until I retired from the service in 1999. During all of that time, I never came across a police air unit that refused to attend a serious incident in another county, or whilst during a chase or a search, came to a shuddering halt at an invisible boundry because they were going out of area. It is true to say that UK Police air units were an object lesson in inter force co-operation. For NPAS to to claim that they have introduced borderless policing is nothing short of an insult!
I'm out of it now, - (more's the pity but the years were rolling on). But I am proud of all those guys and gals too, who gave their everything to make air support work. And what did they get for it? A load of crap from some spotty faced youth in the Home Office and probably NPAS too, who decided that the air observer is not a front line officer and should not be paid accordingly.
No matter that the Observer is there to ensure that we all get the best bang for our buck out of that admittedly expensive piece of kit up there. The aircraft is only as good as its crew, and if you want to turn them into a dis spirited and unenthusiastic team, then you are going the right way about it.
This whole farce is the result of a chronic lack of leadership. HMG deliberately set up NPAS using people who knew nothing about the subject. They did it that way because they wanted to be in total control, which would have been challenged if they used experienced and skilled leaders.
Sadly we are now all starting to reap what they sowed. Confusion and disenchantment.
NPAS is here to stay, and I pray that it will soon start to become effective, but it cannot do that unless its leaders have the B***s to turn on their stupid leaders at the HO, and point out what a mess their policies are producing.
Someone needs to remember that "This is a front line Police resource" and should be operated and deployed accordingly. It is there to combat crime of all types, not just for pre planned and major events. It has a strong element of providing vital support and safety to officers on the ground. Its greatest weapon lies in its speed of arrival overhead the incident, and as a result any delay built into its method of deployment, has a far greater potential to waste money than almost anything else.
Sadly I write this knowing that no-one at NPAS or the Home Office will listen. They are set on their path towards ineffectiveness and I doubt that anything will shift them now. All attention is set on the next promotion or even the QPM. You don't get that for rocking the boat!
I don't know 'cos it was even before my time, but I guess it must be a bit like it was in the mid 1930's when the Gov't were intent on reducing the RAF. They wouldn't listen then either.
tigerfish
Last edited by tigerfish; 13th Aug 2012 at 16:00.