UK NPAS discussion: thread Mk 2
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Just a couple of observations on your roster, where did the 1+8 come from for 24hr bases?
Have you factored in leave, sickness, courses, maternity leave, paternity leave..........
Have you factored in leave, sickness, courses, maternity leave, paternity leave..........
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Hiya Wagging Finger.
As per line one of my post, the 1+8 is for non 24hr rather than 24hr bases, and the figures were given by NPAS last week. As of writing I can't remember what the 24hr base staffing levels were. It's the age you know!
NPAS stated that they had calculated the 1+8 figures based on 30 days off per person per year. There was let us say some 'debate' over these figures and they added that this was a "starting point" and could be reviewed if found to be wanting. I would think that the 30 days off refers only to leave and does not take account of the other factors you mention.
NPAS have provided the figures and so, working with fixed staffing levels and a fixed number of rostered days off (given the shift length), I have not been able to factor in the items you mention, however I have given regard to them.
Because of the admin days, all the rosters provide 4 days of spare cover per week (208 per year) from within the TFO group, plus the base manager will be working 178 days per year (4 days per week, less the NPAS 30 days assumed leave, if they work a similar shift length and pattern to the TFOs). That totals 386 days cover per year to cover 240 days leave (8 TFOs times 30 days as the base manager does not need cover), which in theory works.
I appreciate that this is very simplistic and gives no account of the base managers other responsibilities that might prevent them flying, but if 208 days cover comes from within the TFO pool itself, then there should only be the need for the base manager to fly 32 shifts each year. There would however need to be some flexibility in the other TFO shifts to cover leave, as the person on admin/cover may not be able to work the actual shift that needs to be covered. Good will required!
Possibly not on a £6k paycut!
Once again I appreciate that these calculations may not survive the real world (no plan survives contact with then enemy and all that) and that they take no account of sickness, injury, courses, training etc. etc. That said you need to start somewhere and overtime (NPAS cry of "ouch" but still cheaper than another TFO) may need to be utilised to cover shortfalls on occasions, much as it is now. Unfortunately as already stated given a fixed staffing level and need to cover defined shifts, you can only come up with certain rosters, and have little latitude for taking account of anything.
All the above are not perfect, but they provide some resilience and a reasonable work life balance.
WP
As per line one of my post, the 1+8 is for non 24hr rather than 24hr bases, and the figures were given by NPAS last week. As of writing I can't remember what the 24hr base staffing levels were. It's the age you know!
NPAS stated that they had calculated the 1+8 figures based on 30 days off per person per year. There was let us say some 'debate' over these figures and they added that this was a "starting point" and could be reviewed if found to be wanting. I would think that the 30 days off refers only to leave and does not take account of the other factors you mention.
NPAS have provided the figures and so, working with fixed staffing levels and a fixed number of rostered days off (given the shift length), I have not been able to factor in the items you mention, however I have given regard to them.
Because of the admin days, all the rosters provide 4 days of spare cover per week (208 per year) from within the TFO group, plus the base manager will be working 178 days per year (4 days per week, less the NPAS 30 days assumed leave, if they work a similar shift length and pattern to the TFOs). That totals 386 days cover per year to cover 240 days leave (8 TFOs times 30 days as the base manager does not need cover), which in theory works.
I appreciate that this is very simplistic and gives no account of the base managers other responsibilities that might prevent them flying, but if 208 days cover comes from within the TFO pool itself, then there should only be the need for the base manager to fly 32 shifts each year. There would however need to be some flexibility in the other TFO shifts to cover leave, as the person on admin/cover may not be able to work the actual shift that needs to be covered. Good will required!
Possibly not on a £6k paycut! Once again I appreciate that these calculations may not survive the real world (no plan survives contact with then enemy and all that) and that they take no account of sickness, injury, courses, training etc. etc. That said you need to start somewhere and overtime (NPAS cry of "ouch" but still cheaper than another TFO) may need to be utilised to cover shortfalls on occasions, much as it is now. Unfortunately as already stated given a fixed staffing level and need to cover defined shifts, you can only come up with certain rosters, and have little latitude for taking account of anything.
All the above are not perfect, but they provide some resilience and a reasonable work life balance.
WP
Last edited by Windle Poons; 11th May 2012 at 08:20.
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Another consideration for NPAS will be to decide what is going to be done about Public Holiday ( "PHL" ) working, and renumeration.
Currently some ASU's work PHL's just like any other day, and share them out equally amongst all of the staff.
Some ASU's work reduced hours on PHL's.
The general rule is that Police Officers are entitled to take Leave on a PHL,
and if required to work, they will receive the enhanced payment at Double Time.
There are different renumerations for Pilots across the Country.
As I understand it, under Winsor proposals, Police Officers required to work a PHL
will still be paid at Double Time, but only Christmas Day will be classed as a PHL
Police Officers will be asked to nominate 7 other dates to be treated as their PHL's,
and if they do so, they can be required to work "normal" PHL's for Plain time
This is obviously intended to try and remove / spread the cost of Police Officers working PHL's
( as we know them now ), where they are paid Double Time,
by spreading the dates throughout the year - hoping that Birthdays, Anniversaries etc etc will be chosen,
and thus increasing the availability of Police Officers to work the "normal" PHL's for no additional payment.
I know of at least one group of Police Officers that are considering what would happen if
a complete Team did NOT nominate alternative dates, electing to stay with the "normal" PHL dates we have now
Under Winsor proposals, whether under NPAS or not, other than on Christmas Day, an Assistant Chief Constable
will have to authorise the working of a PHL at Double Time with less than 15 days notice.
Assuming all the staff on an ASU remained at the Default position and have not nominated alternative PHL dates, t
hen they would all be entitled to take Leave on those dates.
There would be no other staff available to work for Plain time.
Pre-NPAS ( if that proposal goes ahead ), individual force ACC's may need to decide
whether they want to have Air Support on "normal" PHL dates or not.
Under NPAS, maybe an ACC at West Yorkshire will need to make the same decision for the whole of the Country ?
It will be interesting to see how this one pans out.
If implemented, Police Officers will need to nominate their PHL dates for 2013 by the end of January 2013.
Currently some ASU's work PHL's just like any other day, and share them out equally amongst all of the staff.
Some ASU's work reduced hours on PHL's.
The general rule is that Police Officers are entitled to take Leave on a PHL,
and if required to work, they will receive the enhanced payment at Double Time.
There are different renumerations for Pilots across the Country.
As I understand it, under Winsor proposals, Police Officers required to work a PHL
will still be paid at Double Time, but only Christmas Day will be classed as a PHL
Police Officers will be asked to nominate 7 other dates to be treated as their PHL's,
and if they do so, they can be required to work "normal" PHL's for Plain time
This is obviously intended to try and remove / spread the cost of Police Officers working PHL's
( as we know them now ), where they are paid Double Time,
by spreading the dates throughout the year - hoping that Birthdays, Anniversaries etc etc will be chosen,
and thus increasing the availability of Police Officers to work the "normal" PHL's for no additional payment.
I know of at least one group of Police Officers that are considering what would happen if
a complete Team did NOT nominate alternative dates, electing to stay with the "normal" PHL dates we have now
Under Winsor proposals, whether under NPAS or not, other than on Christmas Day, an Assistant Chief Constable
will have to authorise the working of a PHL at Double Time with less than 15 days notice.
Assuming all the staff on an ASU remained at the Default position and have not nominated alternative PHL dates, t
hen they would all be entitled to take Leave on those dates.
There would be no other staff available to work for Plain time.
Pre-NPAS ( if that proposal goes ahead ), individual force ACC's may need to decide
whether they want to have Air Support on "normal" PHL dates or not.
Under NPAS, maybe an ACC at West Yorkshire will need to make the same decision for the whole of the Country ?
It will be interesting to see how this one pans out.
If implemented, Police Officers will need to nominate their PHL dates for 2013 by the end of January 2013.
Windle Poons / Senior Pilot:
I would suggest this post showing shift options is rather sensitive to dangle in a public domain - no? Way too much information to pour over and plan around.
Perhaps it needs to be removed?
Windle: are you new to the game?
I would suggest this post showing shift options is rather sensitive to dangle in a public domain - no? Way too much information to pour over and plan around.
Perhaps it needs to be removed?
Windle: are you new to the game?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
May I suggest that this sort of thing is discussed in the POLKA site.
After all, that's where the target audience is, or at least have access to.
After all, that's where the target audience is, or at least have access to.
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Richie
YES.....what on earth are you doing in a roster? I've only been at this for 13 years at 3 units, but in my experience base managers don't do rosters, but do like to grab a little OT on BHs. A case of caps fitting and not fitting perhaps, but mines off to you for leading from the front. Apparently a view shared by Npas.
I refer to my earlier comment of little Kingdoms being brought into a larger empire.....
YES.....what on earth are you doing in a roster? I've only been at this for 13 years at 3 units, but in my experience base managers don't do rosters, but do like to grab a little OT on BHs. A case of caps fitting and not fitting perhaps, but mines off to you for leading from the front. Apparently a view shared by Npas.
I refer to my earlier comment of little Kingdoms being brought into a larger empire.....
Last edited by Art of flight; 12th May 2012 at 08:53.
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Oh my gosh I've been 
, as I see that my post regarding possible shift patterns for the 20 hour bases has been removed.
I should like to point out that I took some while and thought before posting, but decided to do so as there are numerous reports, freely available online and including almost all police authority websites, that talk about 20 and 24 hour bases. One goes as far as to say which base in their region is going to be the 24 hour one, and states the others will be 20 hours, giving the staffing levels at each. Another talks about the base in their area reducing to 20 hours from 24, after the introduction of NPAS, even being so helpful as to give the proposed operating hours. I haven't linked to them here in case they're of use to anyone planning anything, even though they can Google it as easily as I did before posting my deleted post.
I agree that POLKA may well have been better to target a specific audience, but my post provided a lot less information than some of the public reports, and I wonder if the specific audience frequent here, or there, more. I took specific care not to mention which bases would be operating 20 hours, or include any of the start and finish times. In light of the information available on the police authority websites, or under an FOI application to the Home Office, I do not see how my post would be of use to anyone planning anything. Yes they might have known the "possible" shift pattern, but that is not of use in planning, as suggested. It's the hours of operation, and which bases operate which hours, that are relevant and the police authorities have covered that!
Sadly TC, with the exception possibly of bowls, at my age it's not often that I'm new to any game, including the game of air ops, which is what I presume you are referring to. If it's of relevance to you, I have over ten years service (almost 3000 hours) on air support, with several units/consortia.
If anyone would like the links to the reports I refer to, or copies of the shift patterns, then please PM me.
WP.
PS. No I haven't actually taken up bowls (yet), although I hear that it can be pretty combative and controversial.
, as I see that my post regarding possible shift patterns for the 20 hour bases has been removed.I should like to point out that I took some while and thought before posting, but decided to do so as there are numerous reports, freely available online and including almost all police authority websites, that talk about 20 and 24 hour bases. One goes as far as to say which base in their region is going to be the 24 hour one, and states the others will be 20 hours, giving the staffing levels at each. Another talks about the base in their area reducing to 20 hours from 24, after the introduction of NPAS, even being so helpful as to give the proposed operating hours. I haven't linked to them here in case they're of use to anyone planning anything, even though they can Google it as easily as I did before posting my deleted post.
I agree that POLKA may well have been better to target a specific audience, but my post provided a lot less information than some of the public reports, and I wonder if the specific audience frequent here, or there, more. I took specific care not to mention which bases would be operating 20 hours, or include any of the start and finish times. In light of the information available on the police authority websites, or under an FOI application to the Home Office, I do not see how my post would be of use to anyone planning anything. Yes they might have known the "possible" shift pattern, but that is not of use in planning, as suggested. It's the hours of operation, and which bases operate which hours, that are relevant and the police authorities have covered that!
Sadly TC, with the exception possibly of bowls, at my age it's not often that I'm new to any game, including the game of air ops, which is what I presume you are referring to. If it's of relevance to you, I have over ten years service (almost 3000 hours) on air support, with several units/consortia.
If anyone would like the links to the reports I refer to, or copies of the shift patterns, then please PM me.
WP.
PS. No I haven't actually taken up bowls (yet), although I hear that it can be pretty combative and controversial.
Last edited by Windle Poons; 12th May 2012 at 10:35.
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Now that this is Public knowledge, does anyone know if these costs have been factored in to the overall NPAS annual budget ?
Recruitment | West Yorkshire Police
Assistant Chief Constable
£90,726 - £105,849
car and comprehensive benefits package
We are currently looking for one Assistant Chief Constable, but with the strong prospect of appointing a second
as a result of West Yorkshire Police becoming the lead force for the National Police Air Service....
£90,726 - £105,849
car and comprehensive benefits package
We are currently looking for one Assistant Chief Constable, but with the strong prospect of appointing a second
as a result of West Yorkshire Police becoming the lead force for the National Police Air Service....
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Coco, now I wonder if there are any personalities already au fait with, and part of NPAS that would fit this role? Names on a postcard.
Last edited by Fly_For_Fun; 16th May 2012 at 12:37.
And where does this position sit in the marriage between NPAS and the Yorks constabulary then? And why does it need to be an ACC. Is this what he/she will be doing all day: monitoring Ollie and the Supt That's what the strategic board are for, no?
Unless they are preparing the way for hiring internallly and being able to offload the salary bill of one of their own, onto NPAS....
Here goes again - empire building and jobs for the boys.....tut tut.
That's what the strategic board are for, no?Unless they are preparing the way for hiring internallly and being able to offload the salary bill of one of their own, onto NPAS....
Here goes again - empire building and jobs for the boys.....tut tut.
Wagging Finger: If it's under the auspices of the AOC you are talking about, then the accountable manager can only be the license holder which is the CC, no? He/she cannot delegate this responsibility therefore putting a layer between him/her won't work.
I accept and understand that the NPAS team have to fall into line with the Yorks management system, but an ACC??? Walnut and sledgehammer come to mind. What's wrong with another supt?
I accept and understand that the NPAS team have to fall into line with the Yorks management system, but an ACC??? Walnut and sledgehammer come to mind. What's wrong with another supt?
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The other option, of course, would be to appoint someone who knows nothing about air support.
I fear that nepotism is already rearing its head in NPAS, as in most of police forces. We shall see.
Last edited by Fly_For_Fun; 16th May 2012 at 14:10.