UK NPAS discussion: thread Mk 2
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Kent`s bid for "Dispatch and Flight Following"
Apparently they are in competition with West Yorkshire for the job!
http://www.kentpoliceauthority.gov.u...%20Service.pdf
Apparently they are in competition with West Yorkshire for the job!
It is believed that the only competitor Kent Police has in relation to the provision of this function is West Yorkshire who are submitting a bid of their own.
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Two things to question with the Kent proposal....
1. The staff costs to NPAS are in the region of £890,000 per annum for the supervisors and controllers just to 'dispatch and flight follow the aircraft'?
2. If the Kent FCC are just dispatching the nearest aircraft, who's making the decision about the viability of the job in the first place? Do we assume the controller will not be vetting the jobs but just passing them on. If thats the case why not just have force control rooms offer the job up on the regional air to ground channel so the the nearest aircraft responds (works fine at the moment) and dispense with this additional expensive labour force?
Thought this was about saving money
1. The staff costs to NPAS are in the region of £890,000 per annum for the supervisors and controllers just to 'dispatch and flight follow the aircraft'?
2. If the Kent FCC are just dispatching the nearest aircraft, who's making the decision about the viability of the job in the first place? Do we assume the controller will not be vetting the jobs but just passing them on. If thats the case why not just have force control rooms offer the job up on the regional air to ground channel so the the nearest aircraft responds (works fine at the moment) and dispense with this additional expensive labour force?
Thought this was about saving money
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Waste
Art of flight, if your figures are correct it is frightening what the eventual staffing cost are ping to be,just to slow deployment down,. I find it astonishing that Alex Marshall (ACPO) in charge cannot see what a monster his project team have created. Art of flight does your figure take into account the NPAS HQ staff ie flight op's director salary in the region of £78k ?. I would not like to guess what the proposed salary will be for the head of NPAS.
Alfie, there is no head of NPAS, perse. OD and his counterpart, the supt answer to the C.C of the parent police force when it is all agreed (from an AOC perspective and then NPAS as an entity will go. The 'system' also answers to a management group consisting of reps across the board including a rep from the 'old police authority system'.
Has the parent police force been selected and established yet - anyone?
Has the parent police force been selected and established yet - anyone?
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Thomas, That is not how I read some documents, I was led to believe (happy to be corrected) that the current project lead will take the top roll , but will have to re apply for the job after 6 months, once up and running.
The parent force roll has been accepted by West York's and Kent and West York's are bidding for the dispatch roll.
I say dispatch roll as if you read the Kent proposal staff will be rotated on a regular basis therefore reducing their knowledge to filter out non air support job's
The parent force roll has been accepted by West York's and Kent and West York's are bidding for the dispatch roll.
I say dispatch roll as if you read the Kent proposal staff will be rotated on a regular basis therefore reducing their knowledge to filter out non air support job's
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ALFIE
My figure was only for the Kent proposed 36 controllers (£22,000 pa) and 5 desk supervisors (£25,000 pa). Salaries are a little lower than that when Winsor very soon takes away the Weekend and shift working enhancements from the civilian staff, but include emloyers 'on-costs' such as training, uniform, pension contribution of 13% etc....
That figure does not include salaries for FOD, Finance director, procurement chief, Head of training, 6 regional managers etc... say another £500,000 and all the extra aircraft hours being used on flying large (ish) distances to provide a 24 hour regional service from 19 hour units.
My figure was only for the Kent proposed 36 controllers (£22,000 pa) and 5 desk supervisors (£25,000 pa). Salaries are a little lower than that when Winsor very soon takes away the Weekend and shift working enhancements from the civilian staff, but include emloyers 'on-costs' such as training, uniform, pension contribution of 13% etc....
That figure does not include salaries for FOD, Finance director, procurement chief, Head of training, 6 regional managers etc... say another £500,000 and all the extra aircraft hours being used on flying large (ish) distances to provide a 24 hour regional service from 19 hour units.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Lots of things in that doc to pick up on, but as the topic of the moment is the staffing of the control room;
This could simply be a move by Kent to have a reason to keep their present staffing levels i.e. no redundancies due to additional responsibilities. I'm hearing 'Why didn't we think of that?" from forces around the country.
I would be surprised if there would be any recruitment going on in these times of cutbacks, just a whole lot of controller upgrading to Level 5. I take it that eventually every Kent controller will be level 5/air ops trained (LEVEL 5A) and become part of the 3 month rotation.
I do notice reference to C2, (Command & Control), shouldn't that be C3, (C2 + Communication)
If there is some recruitment needed, how long before we hear cries of 'Jobs for the South' again, and do you think CAA Flt Ops might have issues with para's 30 & 31?
FORCE CONTROL ROOM AIR OPERATIONS
24. Dedicated Control Room Dispatchers will be provided by Kent Police. They will receive initial training in air operations control and deployment and provide the Kent Air Ops capability at the FCR.
25. It is anticipated that providing the required level of cover for a country wide operation of this type will require 36 dispatchers and 5 supervisors.
26. These staff will be Kent Police employees who have attained Level 5 dispatcher capability within the FCR or in the case of supervisors are Team Leaders, (or police officer equivalents).
27. Staff will serve a 3 month tour of duty with Kent Air Ops before rotating back to their section.
24. Dedicated Control Room Dispatchers will be provided by Kent Police. They will receive initial training in air operations control and deployment and provide the Kent Air Ops capability at the FCR.
25. It is anticipated that providing the required level of cover for a country wide operation of this type will require 36 dispatchers and 5 supervisors.
26. These staff will be Kent Police employees who have attained Level 5 dispatcher capability within the FCR or in the case of supervisors are Team Leaders, (or police officer equivalents).
27. Staff will serve a 3 month tour of duty with Kent Air Ops before rotating back to their section.
I would be surprised if there would be any recruitment going on in these times of cutbacks, just a whole lot of controller upgrading to Level 5. I take it that eventually every Kent controller will be level 5/air ops trained (LEVEL 5A) and become part of the 3 month rotation.
I do notice reference to C2, (Command & Control), shouldn't that be C3, (C2 + Communication)
If there is some recruitment needed, how long before we hear cries of 'Jobs for the South' again, and do you think CAA Flt Ops might have issues with para's 30 & 31?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
My particular favourite part is;
Wouldn't a quick look at a 250k or even a 500k on a wall would be safer?
There may be hills, active danger areas, NOTAMS and other beasties out there that I suspect the mapping system might not take into consideration. Hazards that a 'trained eye' with local weather updates looking at a marked map would.
C4I (C3 + computers & intelligence)
23. The Kent ESRI mapping system shows the entire country down to a scale of 1:50,000 which is sufficiently detailed to identify the closest aircraft to an incident.
There may be hills, active danger areas, NOTAMS and other beasties out there that I suspect the mapping system might not take into consideration. Hazards that a 'trained eye' with local weather updates looking at a marked map would.
C4I (C3 + computers & intelligence)
Kent??!!
Interesting isn't it, That the Force chosen so carry out this very important, some might say vital function, - is the only major force in the country that never took the trouble to provide itself with Air Support.
For ages it refused point blank to have anything to do with air support, and then to avoid any major expenditure paid for a service from Essex!
Is it not surprising then, that one or two are a tad sceptical.
tigerfish
see, - I'm still here! Watching and listening!
For ages it refused point blank to have anything to do with air support, and then to avoid any major expenditure paid for a service from Essex!
Is it not surprising then, that one or two are a tad sceptical.
tigerfish
see, - I'm still here! Watching and listening!
Last edited by tigerfish; 27th Apr 2012 at 23:39.
FFF,
The problem with answering that question is that Chief Officers (ACPO) cannot progress through the 3 stages in one force. i.e. ACC,DCC and CC.
An ACC for example can do DCC in their force, but must then move to another force in order to get promoted to CC. Some, - called the "butterflies", move several times. So its not a simple question to answer. The problem with Kent, was that for years they had a long term CC who was diametrically averse to air support. Many of his staff learned their trade under that regime. That attitude stuck for years.
It has changed in more recent times, but the force has no in depth experience of operating aircraft. At one time they were keen on drones.
News tonight! At least one Chief Constable has got the B***s to stick to his guns and has resigned over the question of Police Commissioners. He was also known to be very concerned re the cuts to Police budgets! Well done him!
tigerfish
The problem with answering that question is that Chief Officers (ACPO) cannot progress through the 3 stages in one force. i.e. ACC,DCC and CC.
An ACC for example can do DCC in their force, but must then move to another force in order to get promoted to CC. Some, - called the "butterflies", move several times. So its not a simple question to answer. The problem with Kent, was that for years they had a long term CC who was diametrically averse to air support. Many of his staff learned their trade under that regime. That attitude stuck for years.
It has changed in more recent times, but the force has no in depth experience of operating aircraft. At one time they were keen on drones.
News tonight! At least one Chief Constable has got the B***s to stick to his guns and has resigned over the question of Police Commissioners. He was also known to be very concerned re the cuts to Police budgets! Well done him!
tigerfish
Who has advisedKent in this area? Where have they suddenly popped up from with all of this? As Tigerfish says: the buggers haven't the faintest idea about Air Ops and they think they can run the dispatch evolution without any previous experience. God help us all.
Flight following: pull the other one. Do they have a direct link via West Drayton or what?
So they launch the Cheshire cab to a job the other side of the Snowdon National Park @ night in bad weather because N Wales is busy in Cumbria...and Kent keeps an eye on these guys throughout???
The inmates are running the assylum.
Flight following: pull the other one. Do they have a direct link via West Drayton or what?
So they launch the Cheshire cab to a job the other side of the Snowdon National Park @ night in bad weather because N Wales is busy in Cumbria...and Kent keeps an eye on these guys throughout???
The inmates are running the assylum.
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Why have Kent suddenly piped up about air ops and gone for the flight following role?
Could this be the answer?
No doubt what FFF alluded.
Could this be the answer?
No doubt what FFF alluded.
Last edited by Vera City; 28th Apr 2012 at 09:19.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
FORCE CONTROL ROOM AIR OPERATIONS
24. Dedicated Control Room Dispatchers will be provided by Kent Police. They will receive initial training in air operations control and deployment and provide the Kent Air Ops capability at the FCR.
25. It is anticipated that providing the required level of cover for a country wide operation of this type will require 36 dispatchers and 5 supervisors.
26. These staff will be Kent Police employees who have attained Level 5 dispatcher capability within the FCR or in the case of supervisors are Team Leaders, (or police officer equivalents).
27. Staff will serve a 3 month tour of duty with Kent Air Ops before rotating back to their section.
24. Dedicated Control Room Dispatchers will be provided by Kent Police. They will receive initial training in air operations control and deployment and provide the Kent Air Ops capability at the FCR.
25. It is anticipated that providing the required level of cover for a country wide operation of this type will require 36 dispatchers and 5 supervisors.
26. These staff will be Kent Police employees who have attained Level 5 dispatcher capability within the FCR or in the case of supervisors are Team Leaders, (or police officer equivalents).
27. Staff will serve a 3 month tour of duty with Kent Air Ops before rotating back to their section.
I assume part of the 3 monthly package would be to actually fly the Kent controllers & supervisors with the different units in the different environments! By the time that's all done, it will be time to leave.
Training new and replacing 41 'experienced' staff every 3 months, sounds an awful waste of time, money and knowledge, let alone all the C4I issues.
What we learn from history, is that we don't learn from history!
"This is yet another example of a Government IT project taking on a life of its own, absorbing ever-increasing resources without reaching its objectives. The rationale and benefits of a regional approach were unclear and badly communicated to locally accountable fire and rescue services who remained unconvinced. Essential checks and balances in the early stages of the project were ineffective. It was approved on the basis of unrealistic estimates of costs and under-appreciation of the complexity of the IT involved and the project was hurriedly implemented and poorly managed. Its legacy is the chain of expensive regional control centres whose future is uncertain."
Amyas Morse, head of the National Audit Office, 1 July 2011
Amyas Morse, head of the National Audit Office, 1 July 2011
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Kent currently host the means (FCC) by which the 2 aircraft that serve Kent, Essex, Suffolk, Cambs and Norfolk communicate and are tasked. It works very well..... (I wait to be shot down on that comment
)...so at a guess they think they just grow a regional plan into a national one.
)...so at a guess they think they just grow a regional plan into a national one.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Kent currently host the means (FCC) by which the 2 aircraft that serve Kent, Essex, Suffolk, Cambs and Norfolk communicate and are tasked. It works very well..... (I wait to be shot down on that comment)...so at a guess they think they just grow a regional plan into a national one.
)...so at a guess they think they just grow a regional plan into a national one.
Given a different time of day, West Mercia, Staffs, West Mids, Leicestershire, Northamptonshire, Warwickshire, Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire are served by one helicopter tasked by means of telephone/radio call to the duty crew. It works very well.
Anyway, lets give it a whirl, it might just work;
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What's that you say Sid? 2 regions already doing the same thing.....take it your region are managing to provide the c2 at little extra cost, perhaps one of those forces could take the national idea on at less cost than the Kent proposal? From what I hear most nights, 'London Info' could handle the flight following job for us at no extra cost
As for the missing 'C', not a hope
As for the missing 'C', not a hope
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
What's that you say Sid? 2 regions already doing the same thing.....
On the other hand, the video highlights that if someone comes up with an idea that could be better for us, it shouldn't be dismissed without trying first. After all, to stop the wheel rolling over your foot, you subsequently invent the brake
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