UK NPAS discussion: thread Mk 2
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SilsoSid, Planing permission for anywhere is like playing the lottery sadly, and not guaranteed.
Having looked at a map I found a little airfiled called Thurrock and having looked on Google earth no residential areas nearby. It is outside of all controlled airspace and near the border of Essex, Kent, and the Met.
Again planning permission would be needed but not impossible, with foul weather recovery to Southend if required.
Rent may also be reasonable as a small airfield compared to an established airport.
Downside would be that a lighting system would need to be installed for clear area and security a possible issue, but being on an international airport not guaranteed as well.
This can be done in slow time as Boreham still available.
Having looked at a map I found a little airfiled called Thurrock and having looked on Google earth no residential areas nearby. It is outside of all controlled airspace and near the border of Essex, Kent, and the Met.
Again planning permission would be needed but not impossible, with foul weather recovery to Southend if required.
Rent may also be reasonable as a small airfield compared to an established airport.
Downside would be that a lighting system would need to be installed for clear area and security a possible issue, but being on an international airport not guaranteed as well.
This can be done in slow time as Boreham still available.
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Alfie;
I'm guessing that you mean it is 3rd/4th hand information from someone who heard something from someone who wasn't there but is connected to the meeting, possibly in a somehow kind of way 
Sweeping
The only sweeping through the police ASU world it is doing, as you say, is here.....I would hardly call 2 direct replies to your post sweeping
Will I be slapping myself before, during or after the 4 'clock, 2 hour long task? 
This information/rumour came from someone in the ASU world connected to the NPAS meeting.
This at the moment is a rumour spreading through the police ASU world, that happens to also be on the Professional pilots Rumour network.
This at the moment is a rumour spreading through the police ASU world, that happens to also be on the Professional pilots Rumour network.
Sweeping
The only sweeping through the police ASU world it is doing, as you say, is here.....I would hardly call 2 direct replies to your post sweeping
But those that believe that any of the counties outside the met will see any air support after 03.00 hour, you need to slap yourselves.
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With you there Sid, arriving home around 05.00 from a base in East Anglia is a regular feature of my life at present and about to be around 06.30, and, yes, I do live within 45 minutes. Thurrock's a non starter. Rochester is a great little foward operating base that could be developed into the real thing, but I'm not sure the people of Essex would wear Kent taking 'their' ASU away. TOWIE!
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The 2 minutes. Under current operating procedures it starts from when the TFO/Observer says JOB! If we turn into a dispatch service like the ambulance or fire service it will be when the Npas controller tells us we're going. Of course it will help if future Base planners provide a door from the ops room directly towards the parked aircraft!
ALFIE, I believe all of what you say happens before the 2 minutes start.
Whoever thought 2 minutes was the figure has never:
Run to the aircraft, putting on helmet and jacket
Opened the door, got in, closed the door.
Switched on the battery whilst finding all five ends of a five point harness. Called ATC for start only to get no response for 20-30 seconds whilst they talk on UHF to a taxiing mil aircraft.
Switched on fuel and fadecs, waited for fadecs. started engines and waited for engines to idle, switched on avionics and tested hydraulics etc,
performed pre-takeoff checks and then taxiing to the take off aid/lights. Repeat back departure clearance to the ATC, take off in the wrong direction 50 % of the time before crossing the runway to turn towards the job.
Rant over!
ALFIE, I believe all of what you say happens before the 2 minutes start.
Whoever thought 2 minutes was the figure has never:
Run to the aircraft, putting on helmet and jacket
Opened the door, got in, closed the door.
Switched on the battery whilst finding all five ends of a five point harness. Called ATC for start only to get no response for 20-30 seconds whilst they talk on UHF to a taxiing mil aircraft.
Switched on fuel and fadecs, waited for fadecs. started engines and waited for engines to idle, switched on avionics and tested hydraulics etc,
performed pre-takeoff checks and then taxiing to the take off aid/lights. Repeat back departure clearance to the ATC, take off in the wrong direction 50 % of the time before crossing the runway to turn towards the job.
Rant over!
Last edited by Art of flight; 8th May 2012 at 10:43.
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The Npas mandate states that the aircraft will be at 126mph in the task direction 2 minutes after taskacceptance. This was how the deal was sold to Cambs police authority to lose their aircraft (google Cambs PA pdf).
I prefer direct clickable links and quotes
http://www.cambs-pa.gov.uk/user_file...ept%202011.pdf
The 20 minute flying time is calculated by including:
ground speed of the aircraft of 120 knots (2.3 miles per minute) and;
2 minutes to allow the aircraft to get airborne from the base.
ground speed of the aircraft of 120 knots (2.3 miles per minute) and;
2 minutes to allow the aircraft to get airborne from the base.
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"2 minutes to allow the aircraft to get airborne from the base."
This is assuming the heli is outside in a secure enviroment. At some of the proposed bases, e.g. Redhill, it will have to be hangered after each flight unless they are prepared to either build a fortress or provide guards. The hangar too will need some serious protection when staff go home.
This is assuming the heli is outside in a secure enviroment. At some of the proposed bases, e.g. Redhill, it will have to be hangered after each flight unless they are prepared to either build a fortress or provide guards. The hangar too will need some serious protection when staff go home.
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I believe East Mid's hangar there Aircraft in-between flights, how many more ASU's do the same?
I would like to meet the Pilot that can get out of the office and in to the air at 126mph in 2 minutes!!!!!
I would like to meet the Pilot that can get out of the office and in to the air at 126mph in 2 minutes!!!!!
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Lets not forget that 126 kts only applies to NPAS a/c.
No one else can go that fast. As was seen by the s.yorks figures. Their 902 was incapable of going more than 101kts on a transit flight whilst NPAS were doing 126kts.
Sadly their police authority swallowed all the fictional response times WITHOUT having them checked.
tut tut.
No one else can go that fast. As was seen by the s.yorks figures. Their 902 was incapable of going more than 101kts on a transit flight whilst NPAS were doing 126kts.
Sadly their police authority swallowed all the fictional response times WITHOUT having them checked.
tut tut.
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Sadly their police authority swallowed all the fictional response times WITHOUT having them checked.
of "Cost saving", "More effective service", ""Access to Air support 24 hours a day etc.
The bottom line however is that NPAS is going to happen,
because Mr. Herbert has said it will - whether anyone likes it or not,
whether it takes 2 minutes to get off the ground from "Task acceptance",
or a LOT longer,
and whether it ends up being more expensive, and less effective
Maybe it's time to accept that, bite the bullet, and work on ways to make the best of a bad job
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And another thing.
Coconutty, I totally agree it will be down to the crews to sort the mess out and make it work. However there is enough experience in the UK in all matters police Air Support for the final solution to be one that IS efficient, effective and not too expensive, unfortunately NPAS don't want to talk to those people because they will be told a few home truths.
And another thing if there are to be 24hr and 19hr bases then there will be a two tier pay scale, ie TFOs on the 24 hr bases getting extra hours 10%enhanced shift pay over the 19hr bases. Given that NPAS are not intending to have any selection process what so ever and to offer TFOs their existing place or other places if there is a vancancy, surely some TFOs are going to be disadvantaged.
And another thing if there are to be 24hr and 19hr bases then there will be a two tier pay scale, ie TFOs on the 24 hr bases getting extra hours 10%enhanced shift pay over the 19hr bases. Given that NPAS are not intending to have any selection process what so ever and to offer TFOs their existing place or other places if there is a vancancy, surely some TFOs are going to be disadvantaged.
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there will be a two tier pay scale, ie TFOs on the 24 hr bases getting extra hours 10% enhanced shift pay over the 19hr bases.
surely some TFOs are going to be disadvantaged
Fortunately these are still only proposals, and there is still time for the Police Federation, Chief Constables etc.
to make their views known to the Policing Minister and CC Marshall, that Police Air Observers / TFO's ARE considered to be specialists.
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cyclicstop
...and I would like to watch, from the ground, the pilot that can do that and be at 1000' in 3.5 !!!
Not saying you can't do what you say, just that I would like to watch !!!
I would like to meet the Pilot that can get out of the office and in to the air at 126mph in 2 minutes!!!!!
I have timed my starts to a scramble from sat in the office thumb up bum up to 126mph 1000ft this takes me 3.5 minutes with no ATC interference problems at our ASU!!!!!
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After some crap weather and being offline and reading this, I was sad enough to time our last responce. 3.2 from engine start to 126MPH. Thats in a 902 and a Helipad departure etc which takes time. So I dont know what is wrong with S Yorks machine perhaps they want to put more coal on the fire, kidding. Who the **** came up with this magical 126 MPH anyway.
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3.2 from engine start would see some of us on top of most jobs