MD Explorer
From the research that I have done for the MD 902 (Explorer) Pilots Manual that I have written:
Engine output: 6000 rpm
Main rotor: 392 rpm
NOTAR: 5412 rpm
AS 355 rotor rpm is nominally 393 and the BO 105 rotor rpm is nominally 424, I believe.
Engine output: 6000 rpm
Main rotor: 392 rpm
NOTAR: 5412 rpm
AS 355 rotor rpm is nominally 393 and the BO 105 rotor rpm is nominally 424, I believe.
Paddy, you need to get out more. I'd recommend a nice OU Summer School like the one I've just been to in Sussex 
. Only problem was this infernal 902 which kept pitching up and hovering over the campus for ages... Bloody police pilots, eh?
. Only problem was this infernal 902 which kept pitching up and hovering over the campus for ages... Bloody police pilots, eh?
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MD 902s grounded in NY for cracked upper Hubs
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/lo...ries-headlines
Choppers on the shelf
Officials say the aircraft were grounded due to cracked parts, but the manufacturer disputes the claims
BY RICK BRAND
STAFF WRITER
December 30, 2004
Two Suffolk police medevac helicopters -- purchased three years ago for just under $5 million each -- have been grounded because their financially troubled manufacturer is balking at replacing cracked parts.
Police officials say the loss of the two choppers, built by Mesa, Ariz.-based MD Helicopters, forced the county to shut down the air unit at Gabreski Airport in Westhampton earlier this month, adding 15 minutes to East End rescues.
The county's lone remaining A-Star B2 helicopter, made by Texas-based American Eurocopter, will stop operating out of Long Island MacArthur Airport on Saturday during a week or two of routine maintenance. As a result, the entire Suffolk aviation unit will be shut down for the first time in decades, according to police officials.
As an emergency replacement, state police have agreed to supply a medevac helicopter and pilot to the county for two weeks beginning this weekend.
County Executive Steve Levy blamed the problem on cracked rotor hubs and called the grounded choppers "clunkers." He said the county is investigating whether it can file a lawsuit to recoup its money.
"Helicopters that cost millions should have a shelf life of a decade or more, not just a few years," Levy said. "It looks like the state may have to pass a 'lemon law' for medevac helicopters."
The county legislature last week approved an emergency resolution to spend $3.1 million for a new helicopter. However, it cannot be delivered until at least May at the earliest due to county bid procedures. Levy said its "highly unlikely" Suffolk will buy the new aircraft from MD Helicopters.
Dale Christman, the MD Helicopters salesman who handled the Suffolk purchase, said his company is aware of the county's complaints. But Christman said MD Helicopters does not agree there are cracks in the rotor hubs.
Nevertheless, Christman said the company is trying to obtain replacement hubs for Suffolk, which will not be available from suppliers until after Jan. 1.
The county purchased the problem helicopters from MD Helicopters in 2001 for $4.9 million each. Levy said one of the MD 902 medevac helicopters has had continuing maintenance problems since he took office last January.
Police officials said the first aircraft was grounded in September when mechanics found hairline cracks on the rotor hub, which connect to the large blades that provide lift. Police officials took the second chopper off-line Nov. 22 for the same problem. "We've been sending the hubs back and forth to the company trying to get replacements," said Robert Anthony Moore, chief of department. "But they keep sending them back saying they are good."
The county then sent the cracked part to an independent laboratory, which not only confirmed the existence of two cracks that police mechanics found, but a third as well. Moore said the county has filed a complaint to the Federal Aviation Administration.
MD Helicopters, formerly part of McDonnell Douglas, has experienced continuing cash flow problems causing difficulty with suppliers, according to a report in Flight International, an aviation industry trade publication.
State police officials say they will send a medevac helicopter -- now stationed in Albany -- to operate out of Long Island MacArthur airport for the next two weeks. County police say a state trooper will pilot the aircraft.
Levy said it is an "open question" whether the problem helicopters can be used again.
And Legis. Angie Carpenter (R-West Islip), who sponsored the emergency measure for the new chopper, said, "I think it would be a good idea if the county just traded them in."
Choppers on the shelf
Officials say the aircraft were grounded due to cracked parts, but the manufacturer disputes the claims
BY RICK BRAND
STAFF WRITER
December 30, 2004
Two Suffolk police medevac helicopters -- purchased three years ago for just under $5 million each -- have been grounded because their financially troubled manufacturer is balking at replacing cracked parts.
Police officials say the loss of the two choppers, built by Mesa, Ariz.-based MD Helicopters, forced the county to shut down the air unit at Gabreski Airport in Westhampton earlier this month, adding 15 minutes to East End rescues.
The county's lone remaining A-Star B2 helicopter, made by Texas-based American Eurocopter, will stop operating out of Long Island MacArthur Airport on Saturday during a week or two of routine maintenance. As a result, the entire Suffolk aviation unit will be shut down for the first time in decades, according to police officials.
As an emergency replacement, state police have agreed to supply a medevac helicopter and pilot to the county for two weeks beginning this weekend.
County Executive Steve Levy blamed the problem on cracked rotor hubs and called the grounded choppers "clunkers." He said the county is investigating whether it can file a lawsuit to recoup its money.
"Helicopters that cost millions should have a shelf life of a decade or more, not just a few years," Levy said. "It looks like the state may have to pass a 'lemon law' for medevac helicopters."
The county legislature last week approved an emergency resolution to spend $3.1 million for a new helicopter. However, it cannot be delivered until at least May at the earliest due to county bid procedures. Levy said its "highly unlikely" Suffolk will buy the new aircraft from MD Helicopters.
Dale Christman, the MD Helicopters salesman who handled the Suffolk purchase, said his company is aware of the county's complaints. But Christman said MD Helicopters does not agree there are cracks in the rotor hubs.
Nevertheless, Christman said the company is trying to obtain replacement hubs for Suffolk, which will not be available from suppliers until after Jan. 1.
The county purchased the problem helicopters from MD Helicopters in 2001 for $4.9 million each. Levy said one of the MD 902 medevac helicopters has had continuing maintenance problems since he took office last January.
Police officials said the first aircraft was grounded in September when mechanics found hairline cracks on the rotor hub, which connect to the large blades that provide lift. Police officials took the second chopper off-line Nov. 22 for the same problem. "We've been sending the hubs back and forth to the company trying to get replacements," said Robert Anthony Moore, chief of department. "But they keep sending them back saying they are good."
The county then sent the cracked part to an independent laboratory, which not only confirmed the existence of two cracks that police mechanics found, but a third as well. Moore said the county has filed a complaint to the Federal Aviation Administration.
MD Helicopters, formerly part of McDonnell Douglas, has experienced continuing cash flow problems causing difficulty with suppliers, according to a report in Flight International, an aviation industry trade publication.
State police officials say they will send a medevac helicopter -- now stationed in Albany -- to operate out of Long Island MacArthur airport for the next two weeks. County police say a state trooper will pilot the aircraft.
Levy said it is an "open question" whether the problem helicopters can be used again.
And Legis. Angie Carpenter (R-West Islip), who sponsored the emergency measure for the new chopper, said, "I think it would be a good idea if the county just traded them in."
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I may be wrong and will accept the criticism if I am, but haven't we had similar problems with police 902s in the UK? I know that there have been rotor head cracking problems.... they may not be related????
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I have certainly known of cases with cracked Main Rotor Hubs, and I believe it is a "known issue".
From an engineering point of view if MD are saying that they are O.K, what is the problem. If the hubs are being returned as "cracked" on the paperwork I can't see what the problem is if MD assess them as being serviceable. Obviously I don't know the whole story or the details of the cracks, but that would be my initial reaction.
"Mad as a mooing fish!"
From an engineering point of view if MD are saying that they are O.K, what is the problem. If the hubs are being returned as "cracked" on the paperwork I can't see what the problem is if MD assess them as being serviceable. Obviously I don't know the whole story or the details of the cracks, but that would be my initial reaction.
"Mad as a mooing fish!"
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MD 902 drivers
Hi
Could any of you 902 drivers give me your impressions about the machine, i.e. what are the good & bad points both from a pilot's point of view & an engineers if possible.
If you don't like the 902, what machine would you prefer to fly?
Please email me if you don't want to bore the other ppruners.
Many thanks.
Could any of you 902 drivers give me your impressions about the machine, i.e. what are the good & bad points both from a pilot's point of view & an engineers if possible.
If you don't like the 902, what machine would you prefer to fly?
Please email me if you don't want to bore the other ppruners.
Many thanks.
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From an engineers point of view, the aircraft is great. There are few crappy jobs, but aren't there always!! 
The biggy is the time spent AOG for spares. MD, going though the troubles that they are, are unable to provide spares, and at present, no-one knows of a solution in the pipeline.
All the guys I've spoken to that fly them, have only praise, except when it is AOG!!!
"Mad as a mooing fish!"
The biggy is the time spent AOG for spares. MD, going though the troubles that they are, are unable to provide spares, and at present, no-one knows of a solution in the pipeline.
All the guys I've spoken to that fly them, have only praise, except when it is AOG!!!
"Mad as a mooing fish!"
Thud's "I've-got-an-opinion-on-everything" perspective:
I flew the 902 for 2 years, and now operate the 135. Pilot points can be summed up as follows:
902 has good cockpit layout, with no roof-panel switches and logical positioning for just about everything. Good, simple FADEC and manual engine control. Rotor brake works, and can be used without fear of bits coming off. As my instructor was wont to say, "the pilot was definitely in the office when the 902 cockpit was being designed" - Eurocopter probably sent theirs on leave. Large cabin with ample headroom & good access.
902 yaw control is not as good as the 135; easy to reach torque limits with pedal input, and downwind hover/ backwards orbit are often a handful. AFCS/ AP can be a hindrance in police work, but lovely for point-to-point stuff. Only one AHRS, a subject the UK CAA get very excited about for single pilot IFR. I can see their point - obviously I'm not going to notice deviations from my intended flight path as I sit there reading the newspaper or eating my breakfast during an IFR transit
Not qualified to talk from an engineers perspective (there are some in the company who'd query my ability to talk from a pilot's, come to think of it...). The 135 is definitely more solidly-built; cockpit windows and doors tend to stay in their intended position (ie on the aircraft) with the Eurocopter offering. Access is definitely better on the 135 - the 902's flimsy panels all have to be removed to work on the engine, and those Camlock fasteners on the 902 often used to give me opportunity to practice my Anglo-Saxon.
Despite Eurocopters claims, I can vouch that the 902 is the quieter of the 2 aircraft when they're operating overhead. Neither is as loud as tail-rotor aircraft though.
Overall? I'd love to go back to the 902 from a pilot's point of view, but the spares/MDHI situation sounds as if it's reached PNR.
I flew the 902 for 2 years, and now operate the 135. Pilot points can be summed up as follows:
902 has good cockpit layout, with no roof-panel switches and logical positioning for just about everything. Good, simple FADEC and manual engine control. Rotor brake works, and can be used without fear of bits coming off. As my instructor was wont to say, "the pilot was definitely in the office when the 902 cockpit was being designed" - Eurocopter probably sent theirs on leave. Large cabin with ample headroom & good access.
902 yaw control is not as good as the 135; easy to reach torque limits with pedal input, and downwind hover/ backwards orbit are often a handful. AFCS/ AP can be a hindrance in police work, but lovely for point-to-point stuff. Only one AHRS, a subject the UK CAA get very excited about for single pilot IFR. I can see their point - obviously I'm not going to notice deviations from my intended flight path as I sit there reading the newspaper or eating my breakfast during an IFR transit
Not qualified to talk from an engineers perspective (there are some in the company who'd query my ability to talk from a pilot's, come to think of it...). The 135 is definitely more solidly-built; cockpit windows and doors tend to stay in their intended position (ie on the aircraft) with the Eurocopter offering. Access is definitely better on the 135 - the 902's flimsy panels all have to be removed to work on the engine, and those Camlock fasteners on the 902 often used to give me opportunity to practice my Anglo-Saxon.
Despite Eurocopters claims, I can vouch that the 902 is the quieter of the 2 aircraft when they're operating overhead. Neither is as loud as tail-rotor aircraft though.
Overall? I'd love to go back to the 902 from a pilot's point of view, but the spares/MDHI situation sounds as if it's reached PNR.
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I've been flying the 902 in the Police & HEMS role for 6 years now, and love it to bits. From a pilots point of view it does exactly what it says on the box - easily.
The major problem is not the aircraft but the support from MDH. Their problems are well known and the cashflow difficulties really hit in two areas. Their ability to quickly develop fixes to known and ongoing technical problems by developing modded parts, and their ability to hold an adequate stock of spares.
If, and its a big if, the much promised refinancing of MDH happens and they support the aircraft properly then it should go from strength to strength.
Keep an eye out for announcements from MDH at HAI - maybe !!!!
The major problem is not the aircraft but the support from MDH. Their problems are well known and the cashflow difficulties really hit in two areas. Their ability to quickly develop fixes to known and ongoing technical problems by developing modded parts, and their ability to hold an adequate stock of spares.
If, and its a big if, the much promised refinancing of MDH happens and they support the aircraft properly then it should go from strength to strength.
Keep an eye out for announcements from MDH at HAI - maybe !!!!
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Many thanks for these replies & the private ones.
The overall opinion is that the 902 is a great machine with lousy back up & support. Unfortunately operators do need good back up, so lets hope this improves.
The overall opinion is that the 902 is a great machine with lousy back up & support. Unfortunately operators do need good back up, so lets hope this improves.
I thought once the MD900 series was sold off, the MD bit was kept by Mesa (McD).
The new owners from Holland (is it?)...don't they supply the spares now? If so..aren't they the fly in the ointment?
Today, one isn't allowed to call it the MD902, I've been told?
The new owners from Holland (is it?)...don't they supply the spares now? If so..aren't they the fly in the ointment?
Today, one isn't allowed to call it the MD902, I've been told?
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When Boeing bought McDonnell Douglas, they did not want to keep the civilan helicopter line, so they sold it to RDM Holdings, the Dutch company of which you speak. Boeing took over the Apache, but RDM holdings created MD Helicopters. It is not McDonnell Douglas and more, just MD. They kept the name MD for continuity, but they are not associated with the old McDonnell Douglas or Boeing. You are also correct in the fact that RDM has ran MD into the ground with lack of support, but all products are still refered to as MD's, i.e. the MD500 series, the MD600, the MD900 series, etc. Hope that clears it up for you. The ironic thing about the whole deal is that the U.S. Federal Trade Commission had no problem with Boeing buying up McDonnell Douglas and creating one of the world's largest defense contractors, but when Bell helicopter wanted to buy the MD civilian helicopter line from Boeing, the FTC said no way, it would create a monopoly. All it really did was weaken Bell, MD, and help Eurocopter gain more U.S. market share.
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From the Yorkshire Post
POLICE helicopters used by forces across this region are at risk of being grounded because the American manufacturer is in trouble and struggling to supply spares.
Helicopters are regarded as one of the most valuable tools police now have and the situation could create a huge embarrassment for senior officers who have spent about £3.7m on each aircraft.
About half of England's police forces operate the Explorer aircraft, built by Arizona-based MD Helicopters, including South Yorkshire, West Yorkshire, Humberside and Greater Manchester.
South Yorkshire's Explorer, unveiled in December 2003, has regularly been out of action, including one recent two-week stretch, because of a lack of spares.
Humberside and West Yorkshire police denied the situation had affected them.
MD Helicopters builds the Explorer specifically for police use. However the company has been unable to source spares from its suppliers, according to Bryn Elliott, editor of Police Aviation News.
The situation is so serious Dutch police have scrapped an order for eight aircraft.
South Yorkshire Police accept their aircraft has been in service for only 75 per cent of the time over the last three months, compared to an expected availability of 95 per cent.
Mr Elliott said that nationally, forces were experiencing availability between 50 and 80 per cent, way below the record for the other obvious choice of police aircraft – the Eurocopter – which has an availability record of about 98 per cent.
In South Yorkshire senior officers are trying to minimise problems by buying a stockpile of parts. But although they have set aside a six-figure sum to buy them, they are struggling to spend the money because items are impossible to source.
South Yorkshire Police Insp Clive Marsden said: "I am trying to negate events outside my control. The public pay for this and expect to see it in the air. It is a very, very important part of the whole policing picture.
"I cannot think of a single policing activity which would not be enhanced by the use of air support. MD is going through a period of change and that appears to be affecting parts supply."
British supplier of MD police helicopters is Police Aviation Services in Gloucestershire and a spokesman admitted MD had experienced parts supply problems.
They had now turned their primary attention from producing aircraft to supplying parts for the existing fleet and he insisted that the situation was improving.
"The South Yorkshire aircraft has been down for longer than any of us would like," he admitted.
US spare parts crisis could ground Yorkshire's police helicopter fleet
POLICE helicopters used by forces across this region are at risk of being grounded because the American manufacturer is in trouble and struggling to supply spares.
Helicopters are regarded as one of the most valuable tools police now have and the situation could create a huge embarrassment for senior officers who have spent about £3.7m on each aircraft.
About half of England's police forces operate the Explorer aircraft, built by Arizona-based MD Helicopters, including South Yorkshire, West Yorkshire, Humberside and Greater Manchester.
South Yorkshire's Explorer, unveiled in December 2003, has regularly been out of action, including one recent two-week stretch, because of a lack of spares.
Humberside and West Yorkshire police denied the situation had affected them.
MD Helicopters builds the Explorer specifically for police use. However the company has been unable to source spares from its suppliers, according to Bryn Elliott, editor of Police Aviation News.
The situation is so serious Dutch police have scrapped an order for eight aircraft.
South Yorkshire Police accept their aircraft has been in service for only 75 per cent of the time over the last three months, compared to an expected availability of 95 per cent.
Mr Elliott said that nationally, forces were experiencing availability between 50 and 80 per cent, way below the record for the other obvious choice of police aircraft – the Eurocopter – which has an availability record of about 98 per cent.
In South Yorkshire senior officers are trying to minimise problems by buying a stockpile of parts. But although they have set aside a six-figure sum to buy them, they are struggling to spend the money because items are impossible to source.
South Yorkshire Police Insp Clive Marsden said: "I am trying to negate events outside my control. The public pay for this and expect to see it in the air. It is a very, very important part of the whole policing picture.
"I cannot think of a single policing activity which would not be enhanced by the use of air support. MD is going through a period of change and that appears to be affecting parts supply."
British supplier of MD police helicopters is Police Aviation Services in Gloucestershire and a spokesman admitted MD had experienced parts supply problems.
They had now turned their primary attention from producing aircraft to supplying parts for the existing fleet and he insisted that the situation was improving.
"The South Yorkshire aircraft has been down for longer than any of us would like," he admitted.
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Whilst it is clear from various sources that there is a problem with supportability of the current Explorer fleet, as usual these types of reports tend to get facts wrong and make misleading statements and conclusions.
As far as I am aware the Dutch Police cancelled their order as a result of a long delayed performance increase and certification thereof.
What are the 50 to 80 % availability statements based on? I doubt that any force would accept operating an aircraft which is on average only available every second operational duty day that it is required!!!
And finally we have 'the obvious choice' which apparently is 'the Eurocopter' (EC225 perhaps??) but it would be coming from that source!!!
All in all more than a hint of a staged report by 'Le Bleu'
As far as I am aware the Dutch Police cancelled their order as a result of a long delayed performance increase and certification thereof.
What are the 50 to 80 % availability statements based on? I doubt that any force would accept operating an aircraft which is on average only available every second operational duty day that it is required!!!
And finally we have 'the obvious choice' which apparently is 'the Eurocopter' (EC225 perhaps??) but it would be coming from that source!!!
All in all more than a hint of a staged report by 'Le Bleu'
There are no limits
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Don't think I have ever seen Bryn Elliot say anything good about the MD 900. This may or may not have anything to do with the fact that Eurocopter are big advertisers in PA News!
Police aircraft are often grounded due to role equipment problems as well. The "recent two week stretch" (of downtime) could have been due to the upgrade of the Police Tactical Radio system, something that all police units in this country are looking forward to in the next year or two or three.
The MD900 is a much better aircraft than the EC135 in all respects. Sadly customers are being discouraged by the spares situation. Having said that, the supply of Eurocopter spares is not always as good as it could be.
Police aircraft are often grounded due to role equipment problems as well. The "recent two week stretch" (of downtime) could have been due to the upgrade of the Police Tactical Radio system, something that all police units in this country are looking forward to in the next year or two or three.
The MD900 is a much better aircraft than the EC135 in all respects. Sadly customers are being discouraged by the spares situation. Having said that, the supply of Eurocopter spares is not always as good as it could be.
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Hmmm remind me what happened to the technically superior video recording technology that Sony developed .
Unfortunately it is not always the best that survive.
Unfortunately it is not always the best that survive.
Unfortunately the report - not wholly accurately reported in that anything I said that was positive about the aircraft [as opposed to relating to the spares] was left out of the 10 minute conversation I had with the Yorkshire Post last week - was instigated by Mr Whitehouse.
It seems he was aware of the grounding from local sources before calling me. I guess they sort of missed the Explorer attending calls perhaps? But by then I think it was a story pretty much on the grapevine a week ago.
My information is that it was nothing to do with role equipment or radio upgrades but just down to the problem that we all know is there. Spares availability.
What Limits. If you you had read the Yorkshire Post article properly before going off in a blinding rage just because I was quoted you may have noticed that the South Yorkshire UEO was also quoted at greater length and it seemed to me he was not disputing any technical grounding and was less than pleased with the situation. Check your facts. Accuracy might help.
Eurobolkow accurately noted that the quote about the Dutch Police cancelling their order was as a result of a long delayed performance increase and certification thereof rather than the suggested spares problem. I do not know the Post author but I would guess that next week he will be reporting on a Womens Institute meeting... a traffic court case etc... so he at least is allowed to misunderstand the odd bit on this article.
The same general defence of his article can be applied to the thrust of the down time numbers and the 'Eurocopter' option .... this is a very concerned Yorkshire Post not Flight International.
What Limits .... 'Don't think I have ever seen Bryn Elliot say anything good about the MD 900. This may or may not have anything to do with the fact that Eurocopter are big advertisers in PA News!'.......... check your facts on both accusations. Accuracy might help.
B
It seems he was aware of the grounding from local sources before calling me. I guess they sort of missed the Explorer attending calls perhaps? But by then I think it was a story pretty much on the grapevine a week ago.
My information is that it was nothing to do with role equipment or radio upgrades but just down to the problem that we all know is there. Spares availability.
What Limits. If you you had read the Yorkshire Post article properly before going off in a blinding rage just because I was quoted you may have noticed that the South Yorkshire UEO was also quoted at greater length and it seemed to me he was not disputing any technical grounding and was less than pleased with the situation. Check your facts. Accuracy might help.
Eurobolkow accurately noted that the quote about the Dutch Police cancelling their order was as a result of a long delayed performance increase and certification thereof rather than the suggested spares problem. I do not know the Post author but I would guess that next week he will be reporting on a Womens Institute meeting... a traffic court case etc... so he at least is allowed to misunderstand the odd bit on this article.
The same general defence of his article can be applied to the thrust of the down time numbers and the 'Eurocopter' option .... this is a very concerned Yorkshire Post not Flight International.
What Limits .... 'Don't think I have ever seen Bryn Elliot say anything good about the MD 900. This may or may not have anything to do with the fact that Eurocopter are big advertisers in PA News!'.......... check your facts on both accusations. Accuracy might help.
B
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Don't think I have ever seen Bryn Elliot say anything good about the MD 900. This may or may not have anything to do with the fact that Eurocopter are big advertisers in PA News!
