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Modular V Integrated (Merged) - Look here before starting a new thread!

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Modular V Integrated (Merged) - Look here before starting a new thread!

Old 24th May 2012, 15:19
  #341 (permalink)  
 
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Most of the jobs are through word of mouth and people putting your CV on peoples desks at the right time.
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Old 24th May 2012, 16:08
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And 84k gets you CPL/IR/MCC/FI, a type rating and a car if you go modular
But no job.
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Old 24th May 2012, 16:18
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It has for 5 pilots in the last year that I have flown with new online. All sub 1000 hours and modular.
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Old 24th May 2012, 17:34
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I don't think many people will deny that your chances of employment post-qualification are higher if you go through CTC or OAA, simply because it is in their interests to place cadets over other pilots who haven't paid them grossly over the odds for an integrated course.

However, I struggle to justify the risk of being out of work and facing BBVA loan payments of £1k+ per month, even if it is only for a few months. There are no guarantees in this industry, and in 18 months time we could just as easily be in the midst of an even worse recession and banking crisis than we were in 2008, as we could be in the position where there are more jobs than there are low hours pilots to fill them.

If you have the means not to worry about that risk then lucky you, go integrated, but if you (and your parents!) are going to be royally screwed if you dont get placed for 6 months then I would seriously consider the wisdom of risking all that. Just my views!
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Old 25th May 2012, 14:41
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I'm all for people training on a modular basis, but I really question how you will get a job in the current environment.

Yes - there's MJ's outfit, but MJ - how many have gone onto jet aircraft later on?

RYR - very possible

Flybe - not at present - all tagged in recent years.

EZY/BA/TCX/Monarch etc. - don't touch modular.

With modular, it seems to be RYR or nothing.
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Old 25th May 2012, 14:56
  #346 (permalink)  
 
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"RYR or nothing."

Sadly, it's that mentality that is the reason so many 200hr modulars are unemployed.

----

Even if you just want to limit yourself to a jet there's a lot more on the horizon than RYR. A couple of months ago NAX were taking on fATPLs for their 737s, modular was accepted. Don't know why so many people are so eager to jump on a jet anyway, has nobody thought how boring it would get flying jets for a 40 year career? If you're 25 when you get onto a 737, come 45 you'll probably be bored of it.

And when you're bored you might want to explore other things like bush flying, but then you're faced with pretty bad pay if you want to support a family.

Have fun flying, do fun things. Instruct, aerial survey etc. When a family is on the horizon then hit the jets up and try to get better pay.

There are jobs out there for 200hr modulars but you just need to find them. And there are aerial survey jobs, instructing etc for newbies but they aren't advertised. You have to find them yourself.

Can't pay your loan back on an instructors wage? I wouldn't get into this industry in debt tbh, work and save up. If you live at home with no commitments you could work on minimum wage and have enough money for modular within 3 years.

This post is mainly aimed at those young guys who just want to go to CTC or OAA. Think guys! You probably don't have a family, go do some real flying! If you truly loved flying you'd explore all types of flying rather than just passenger jets. And modular is the way for doing all this.

But maybe some of you 18 year olds just want to show your Monarch uniform to your school teachers.

If you're a lot older than 18, than I can see why integrated is the better option for you. I just can't get my head round why teenagers are itching to go on a £100k course and fly a jet until they are 66 years old.

Last edited by pudoc; 25th May 2012 at 15:01.
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Old 25th May 2012, 15:58
  #347 (permalink)  
 
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Even if you just want to limit yourself to a jet there's a lot more on the horizon than RYR
Great - please list them to help new modular grads.

When a family is on the horizon then hit the jets up and try to get better pay
Explain that to the flybe guys!


"RYR or nothing."

Sadly, it's that mentality that is the reason so many 200hr modulars are unemployed
.

There are many reasons why mods are unemployed, but chief amongst them is that the vast majority of airlines don't take them on. That would be fine if the airlines required experienced pilots as the mods could work their way up, but they don't. They like 200 hr integrated pilots as they are very cheap but still can be perceived as lower risk.

pudoc - I agree with your posts for those simply looking to fly, but to join an airline in the current market is a lot harder for mods. I don't like that but unfortunately it seems to be reality.
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Old 25th May 2012, 16:18
  #348 (permalink)  
 
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My post wasn't really aimed at you FANS, only the first bit.

Regarding Flybe, yes your right it's not as black and white as I made out. I was just trying to get through to any young guys reading and deciding mod v int.

Even if you just want to limit yourself to a jet there's a lot more on the horizon than RYR
Great - please list them to help new modular grads.
I've actually deleted a lot of this. I didn't realise at the time but when I first posted this I gave away a lot of companies names. I haven't even got a job yet so until I do I don't want to increase my competition.

But basically, plenty of people get RHS on jets out of modular. It's all about making contacts and finding out who's hiring.

Last edited by pudoc; 25th May 2012 at 20:17.
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Old 5th Jun 2012, 09:12
  #349 (permalink)  
 
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everyone keeps talking about the british carriers has anyone thought of taking your application abroad to fly? where there is less competition, where they love british born pilots and where it will be a great opportunity to gain experience. Many countries over many continents all require pilots why put all your eggs in one basket?
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Old 16th Jun 2012, 17:46
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This is how I currently see it - you are paying up to £100,000 (incl. living) for the airline connections made for you by the FTO. The biggest question on my mind is really.. is this worth it???

I don't want to go integrated. I have nothing at all bad to say about the FTOs (apart from being turned off by the glossy, glossy brochures) but I just cannot justify spending such a vast sum of cash on what seems to be a slightly more advantageous position in terms of applying to a FO position on a jet, which, at the moment, appeals to me very little!

What worries me though is just how significant the extra 60k spent at OAA/CTC etc becomes later on. I would imagine an integrated pilot (lets say 200hrs, hired straight out of FTO X into carrier X) would experience a quicker progression in terms of salary, type etc, whilst I have been given the impression from a few modular-hired guys that its easy to get stuck in a low paying job with little room for a break into anything bigger. Whilst Modular is far cheaper, it doesn't work out cheaper if you don't earn anything for 2 years after completing it...

Apologies for this as I know it's been done to death - However thoughts v. much appreciated......i just cannot make my mind up!

Cheers

Last edited by Uniform267; 16th Jun 2012 at 17:47.
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Old 17th Jun 2012, 10:16
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Also stuck in this predicament. Before I was keen on Integrated at a certain type of FTO in Spain, but now I think is it worth it to spend over £85,000 where I can get training elsewhere much cheaper.

I've been thinking of training in Canada because it's way cheaper, roughly around £30,000+ but then there's also the problem of switching back to JAA etc.Does anyone have any information on what is needed to switch from CAR CPL to JAA CPL?

Looks like the only possible way is to find a tagged scheme or go modular if you don't want the heavy debts.
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Old 17th Jun 2012, 10:46
  #352 (permalink)  
 
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Its not worth it to be honest. Going the other way is alot easier.

You would still have to do all the theory exams and also the full IR course so would cost you the same again.
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Old 17th Jun 2012, 17:34
  #353 (permalink)  
 
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This is how I currently see it - you are paying up to £100,000 (incl. living) for the airline connections made for you by the FTO. The biggest question on my mind is really.. is this worth it???
Only you can decide that, but bear in mind a couple of other points. Certain FTO's don't simply have "airline connections" but more importantly they are contracted to provide cadet pilots for specific airlines cadet programmes. This can mean 16 months of ab-initio training, followed by an MCC course and that airlines specific type rating course (3 months). This is then followed by a six month "placement" with the airline. At the end of that placement period, the airline may offer a contract of employment.

During the "placement" the cadet is receiving no basic salary, but is receiving allowances and flight pay. On top of this there is a return of some of the training costs (bond) giving an income of around £2000 a month.

With a combination of good timing, the right placement company, effort and luck, the cadet can find themselves on a £40K plus allowances contract, 26 months after starting their ab-initio course. In some cases it is also possible for the majority part of their training course fees (bond) to be repaid from their future salary in a manner that has tax advantages. It is perfectly possible for the training costs to then be amortized over a period of 60 months (although 84 months would be the average.)

The airline placement for six months will likely result in around 500 hours on a modern aircraft type (A320 etc.) If the placement didn't dovetail into a contract, then the cadet would be in a reasonable position to apply for vacancies that did arise generally.

Some placement airlines will include the type rating as a part of the placement, others may charge an additional sum for that rating.

The flip side of course is the cost. A lot of people will not be able to raise the course fees. These courses are also selective, and require candidates to reach a standard where an offer of a course can be made. The courses are intensive, and a high standard of progression is required. Where this isn't achieved, there is a risk the course will be terminated. The candidate may not be offered a placement. The placement may be subject to additional training costs, or the candidate may be be dropped after the placement commences.

The dynamics of the airline recruitment market, mean there can be no guarantees of placement or employment or indeed the terms and conditions relevant to either. It is quite possible that upon successful completion of training, the airlines have either limited or indeed no requirement for additional cadets. This has happened in significant numbers over the last 5 years, resulting in large "holding pools" of people who in turn are commited to high levels of debt repayment. It should also be borne in mind that airline recruitment (even in good periods) is often seasonal and tends to take place when there is training capacity (usually in Winter and early Spring.)

Some people will advise you to "save your money" and "go modular." That is fine. However it is very unlikely to result in you being an A320 First Officer 24 months down the road. This route requires a series of "stepping stone" progressions through licence aquisition and then aerial work jobs (flying instruction, GA entry level opportunities,) and then as experience is aquired on to third and second tier commercial companies, and eventually on to airlines seeking First Officers through direct employment opportunities.

This market is a saturated one. Obviously for cost reasons alone, the vast bulk of hopeful aspirants are likely to found here. The jobs that exist are fiercely fought over and the attrition rate is high. Progress to the end goal (if first tier airlines are the end goal,) is normally very slow in comparison, and again the attrition rate is very high.

An increasing number of airlines are utilizing cadet programmes as a significant part of their recruitment process. For anybody with a realistic expectation of flying for an airline at ab-initio level, this is where those opportunities lie. Once again, those cadets are recruited through the established and recognised programmes.

There are no easy answers I am afraid. However there is a great deal of risk, and for many people a great deal of heartbreak and disappointment. I have said it many times, so I don't mind saying it again, but do your research carefully. If airlines are where you see your goal, then look at where those airlines recruit from. Look at the costs involved and work out your your own risk profile. On internet bulletin boards there a lot of comments that are simply wishful thinking, or downright delusional.

Last edited by Bealzebub; 17th Jun 2012 at 17:40.
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Old 18th Jun 2012, 20:50
  #354 (permalink)  
 
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Need some advice on Integrated vs Modular

Hi all, thought I would give a quick post on here as I am looking for some advice on pilot training. Heres the story so far;

I had a trial flying lesson a few months ago and loved it, I had always been interested in aviation but the lesson sealed the deal: I really want to be a pilot. On the 30th May I had an assessment day with an FTO and they offered me a place on an integrated course. The cost of the course is £81k. As I am only 19 I obviously have no chance of getting that money. Thankfully my parents are very supportive and they are willing to use their equity to secure a loan. I am also aware that I could go the modular route and get the same licenses/ratings for much cheaper, however it would take me longer.

The FTO have said numerous times about how the industry is going very well and lots of pilot jobs are out there, but obviously they will say that, they want my £81k. So basically I was just wondering what the industry is like atm? As I will be out of work in a few weeks now would be a good time for me to do the integrated course, but obviously I don't want to gamble my parents house and lifestyle without knowing that there is a good chance of employment at the end of the course.

One more thing. I see that a lot of airlines post in their recruitment ads that the candidate must already be type rated. Now im aware that this can be quite expensive. Are there many, or any, airlines that don't require you to pay for your type rating? If I was to go on the integrated course I don't think I/we could get more money on finance for the type rating.

After looking into it more I am personally leaning towards the modular side, it just seems less risky. However another part of me is thinking that I should do the course as I will be unemployed in a few weeks anyway, but again I don't think I could live with myself if my parents were to lose everything because of my silly mistake.

Thanks in advance for your time and help.
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Old 19th Jun 2012, 18:02
  #355 (permalink)  
 
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help on pilot traing

Hi I am new to this site so sorry if I have posted this inthe wrong place. I am going to start my pilot training to achieve my frozenatpl. I am going to do it through the module route as it is cheaper and I canstill work at the same time. I was just wondering what are the chances ofgetting a job with a airliner when I am finished as I am doing it the moduleroute and not though ctc or any of them organisations as they help you find aplacement when you are finished also do I need and school qualifications likeGCSEs or A levels before an airliner with be interested
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Old 20th Jun 2012, 11:45
  #356 (permalink)  
 
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Paying extra and going integrated puts you into a hold pool at the end of your training. How long you sit there waiting for a job depends on the market conditions at the time of graduation. I'd say you have a much better chance of getting a job after training with CTC as they seem to be feeding most of the hungry mouths at the moment.

You seem young so if I was your Dad I'd be telling you to do your GCSEs and A Levels before considering any type of training. There is no need to rush as the economy on a european level is on very fragile ground. Low cost airlines seem to have a promising future ahead of them so take a good look at the FTOs who have a good relationship with these. If you are interested in Ryanair then modular or integrated may suit you as their FOs seem to come from a wide spectrum of sources (OAA/FTE/SFC). EasyJet mainly gets FOs from CTC but there are a few MPL students coming in from OAA. They have also taken on a number of ex-airforce pilots also.

Modular is cheaper, you do have a chance of getting a job but it is smaller than the chance you will have from attending integrated.

Elitist comments don't help anyone.
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Old 20th Jun 2012, 11:57
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Paying extra and going integrated puts you into a hold pool at the end of your training
I can only see that in CTC Cadet route. I don't see any other schools that put you into a hold pool to my knowledge.
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Old 20th Jun 2012, 14:39
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First post so please don't bite!

I'm in my early twenties and I've recently looked into professional training. I've had a long standing interest but have never had the finances to seriously consider it. I trained as a seafarer and now work in the private yacht industry for high profile clients and am earning enough to make flying training a reality.

I've resoundingly read that modular is the way to go. I work a three months away/one month at home rotation pattern but am considering dropping back to a two on/two off (albeit for less money) and beginning training. The other option is I work for the next 24 months flat out and save a large sum and commit to an integrated/modular course with enough left over to do a type conversion and live comfortably for the duration. Whatever course I choose, debt is something I would like to avoid if at all possible.

My present work is very flexible and transient, I can take and leave work at relatively short notice. If I were to achieve an fATPL and struggle to find work straight away I can't see myself having too much trouble falling back on my maritime qualifications. I am hoping that as a self funded student who has earned the finances for their courses and worked in demanding environments before I should be in with a fairly good chance. I am used to working in an informal place where your reputation and networking are as important as what's on your CV.

I'm ultimately asking:

a) If you can afford integrated is it worth the extra money
b) If you chose modular, could you fit training around seasonal or part time overseas work
c) If you studied full time for a modular course instead of integrated what are the differences aside from one's residential?
d) How much of a benefit is it to have a few years life experience and responsibility when applying for your first position in the industry?

Any constructive feedback would be greatly appreciated. I haven't had a chance to read through the whole forum yet so sorry if I have asked something that has already been answered. I also have only a basic knowledge of the present aviation industry so any useful reference material, please send it my way.
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Old 20th Jun 2012, 21:52
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a) If you can afford integrated is it worth the extra money
- No, the European financial **** storm on the horizon is going to ruin integrated students lives just as badly as modular.

b) If you chose modular, could you fit training around seasonal or part time overseas work
- Yes, however when it comes to doing your CPL ME and IR I'd suggest you do these modules in one sitting i.e. take 4 weeks off to do the CPL, go back to work, a week to do the ME, back to work then a couple of months for the IR, back to work. I did the IR around full time employment and believe me it was a ball ache. Take the time off and give it 100% of your attention.

c) If you studied full time for a modular course instead of integrated what are the differences aside from one's residential?
- If you plan it well and work your arse off you will complete the modular course quicker than the integrated. I managed to get from zero to CPL ME IR in about £50K so it's a bit cheaper too but how much you value the 'apparent' increase in chances of getting a job is up to you.

d) How much of a benefit is it to have a few years life experience and responsibility when applying for your first position in the industry?
- It depends how mature you are to start with. Optimum age seems to be around the 25 mark (in my opinion).
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Old 21st Jun 2012, 04:37
  #360 (permalink)  
 
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Hi i was just wondering do you need any school qualifications before a airliner will be interesred in you.
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