Judging The Flare

[aidanf]

Advice again chaps! I'm currently trying to nail the circuit in my early stages of flying - have had different instructors on different days, each with slightly different opinions of how to judge the flare on landing. Have any of you guys got any alternate ideas which you've found work? At present I've got - flare at about 5 feet and then hold-off - wait for that sinking-feeling in the stomach - wait for the end of runway to come above the engine-cowl - among others!!! I guess it's going to come down to experience eventually, but until then I'd appreciate what works for you!
Cheers

[Mr Wolfie]

aidenf:

My instructors advice was to reduce power, flare just above the runway, keep eyes looking ahead to end of runway, and then as it sinks, keep pulling back just enough to keep it flying, then when it sinks a bit more, pull back a little further, etc. etc. Basically his advice is to try and keep the thing in the air as long as possible until it settles itself on the mains with the stall warner just starting to sound.

The "try and keep the aircraft flying" rather than "force it unto the runway" advice certainly helped me in getting my landings to start to "click."

Mr.Wolfie

[Circuit Basher]

Aidanf - the flare's the easy bit

Just Stuka dive towards the deck until you see your instructor reach for the controls. THEN you know it's time to flare!

[Who has control?]

Trying to keep the same instructor helps too!

[long final]

aidanf

IMHO 5 feet seems far too high. 1 foot or so should give a nice smooth landing (talks like he knows what they are )

I find leaving a little power on throughout the flare helps greatly in producing a good landing, the extra control gained helps stability - though instructors seem pretty well split on teaching this method.

Regards,
LF

[FlyingForFun]

I have to admit I have no idea how high I am when I flare. I could probably make a guess, but it's certainly not something I think about when I'm flying.

What I do is this: as you start to ease back on the yoke, make a concious effort to look off into the distance - the end of the runway is usually a good place to look. Then, gradually ease back, keeping focused on the end of the runway, and trying not to let the 'plane sink. If there's little or no cross-wind, that's it - easy

Cross-winds complicate things a little - it sounds like you're probably at the stage where you're not ready to tackle cross-winds yet, but, for completeness:

If there's a cross-wind and you're using the wing-low method, you'll find you also need to increase the aileron and rudder as they become less efective. Again, keep your attention focused on the end of the runway, and just use whatever control it takes to keep the aircraft going in a straight and pointing down the runway.

The de-crabbing method takes a little practice to know when the aircraft is about to settle down, so you can de-crab just before. Depending on the type, you might be able to make this easier by choosing a nice nose-high attitude to land in which isn't necessarilly with the yoke all the way back, and just holding the yoke when you reach that attitude... that way, you decide the exact moment you touch down, rather than just waiting for it, which makes the de-crabbing easier. In types which don't like being landed with the yoke or stick anything other than all the way back, such as the Super Cub, don't use the de-crabbing method, stick to wing-low! But it works extremely well in the Europa, which doens't normally land with the stick full-back in any case.

Having said all that, everyone has their own way of flaring. The real trick is to speak to as many people as possible, try out all the ideas, and then stick with the one that works. Read all the replies here, and also read some students' diaries on Yahoo.

Good luck - and don't forget to have fun!

FFF
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[StrateandLevel]

F for F

That sounds like prety good advice. Having instructed for many years I haven't a clue what height I flare at, it is simply not relevant.

For cross-winds, the method is determined by where the wings are, you cannot fly wing-down to the flare with a low wing aeroplane.

As for leaving power on, I have to disagree, the throttle should be closed when you touch the ground.

[FlyingForFun]

Strate,

Glad you agree with most of what I said. I suspect others won't, but, like I said, as long as what you do works for you, that's the only thing that really counts.

Confused by your comment about the throttle though. I agree with you (on some types it's nice to keep a bit of throttle until the flare, but probably close it during the flare, and certainly when touching the ground) - but I can't find anyone else who's mentioned the throttle, so who are you disagreeing with??? Or has someone deleted their post?

I don't agree about not landing wing-down in a low-winged aircraft though. I've used this technique successfully in a PA28. There are certain types where it won't work - I won't use it in the Europa because of the stress it puts on the outriggers. But every type is different, and I don't think you can make general statements like not landing wing-down in a low-wing.

FFF
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[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Trust me - one day it will just 'click'. And then you'll wonder what all the fuss was about.

SSD

[Circuit Basher]

FFF - I think Strateandlevel was referring to the comment by Longfinal:

I find leaving a little power on throughout the flare helps greatly ......

I personally tend to use slightly different technique, depending on:

A/c Type Some types tend to lose elevator / rudder effectiveness at landing speed / in the flare and a tad of power just helps provide a bit of control responsiveness

Conditions With a gusty crosswind, I prefer to keep some power on to cope with sudden lulls in airflow over the tail unit

Runway Length If I've got plenty of runway to play with and negligible crosswind, I'm happy to use the throttle just to provide a bit of a cushioning effect

My Approach If my approach and flare has been a tad short / slow, then the throttle just helps extend my flying time to reduce vertical speed / delay the stall!

Flaps Selected If I've got full flap, the whole airframe is really draggy and trying to get below stall speed really quickly - if I've got enough runway, a bit of power just cushions it a bit.

Agree that for a standard 'uncomplicated' flare, then power off and keep the runway just in sight over the nose (unless tailwheel!) works for me.

[long final]

This is the thing re. Instructors. I was mainly taught no wing down in low wings and no power. Since then, through a CPL, I was taught, and now use (landing distance permitting) wing down (pa28) and a little power. Each to their own, but a low wing will happily sit one wheel for landing and power on landings can be very helpful.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

When ever the flair height and where to look discussion comes up it never ceases to amaze me at how few Instructors understand the subject.

If you are not capable of accurately judging the flare height and the hold off height you are guaranteed to have poor landing skills.

The biggest problem in teaching landings is looking in the wrong area to judge height..... it is as simple as that.... if you cannot accurately judge your height above the runway you are not landing you are arriving.

And it is not possible to accurately judge height above the runway by looking at the far end...... period ......

I know this is the private pilot thread, however that does not mean that private pilots should not understand how to land properly.


The problem of course is poor instructors.

Cat Driver:

[jonathang]

I had the same problem, think many peeps do,

My FI solved the problem by setting the a/c up in the flare just off the runway and feeding in power to keep it flying from one end of the runway to the other.

Game me a chance to slow the process down and help get the feel of the correct attitude etc.

After that no problems.

hope this helps.

Also a good idea if the runway is long and no xwind lol.

Jonathan

[big.al]

In my early circuit days, judging the flare was the bit I found most difficult. I was either flaring too high (like a 737) and causing the instructor to reach for the throttle to avoid a sudden catastrophic sink from 15ft, or flaring to low and making my instructor think I was trying to land on the nosewheel.

Curiously I found that because the runway was so long where I was learning (6000ft) I found it difficult to concentrate on the far end of the runway whilst starting the flare. I actually found it easier to look at a fixed point around half-way down the runway, imagining that to be the runway end, as if I was doing short-field landings. That way it suddenly 'clicked' as others have said. Then to my delight, upon my first 'real' short field landing (600ft of damp grass) I nailed it right on the numbers. Still have much to learn as I swear that every landing is different, but then every flight is also a learning experience....

(and before anyone says it, no I don't think that half of 6000ft is a 'short field' - 3000ft is still a pretty damn big runway compared to what I'm now used to....)

[Chuck Ellsworth]

big.al:

To properly judge flare height you " MUST " use the area of the runway where you plan to flare as your center of sight point.

By keeping the planned flair point as your aim point during the final approach it will be your most accurate method of flairing in the proper place.

You must use the same point on the runway that you used for the approach to properly judge the correct flare height.

Any instructor who teaches you to look at the far end of the runway does not understand the correct method to judge height and or distance during the most critical part of the approach and landing.

The landing flare and hold off is the most difficult to re teach of all the bad habits that I find when re training pilots in my advanced flying program.

And there should be no reason for pilots to be taught voodoo type garbage such as look at the far end of the runway, because it just plain is not correct. The farther you look from the area where you wish to flare and land the less accurate your judgement of height above the runway will be.

Nothing annoy's me more than sloppy approaches and landings.

Cat Driver:

[Flyin'Dutch']

Hi Chuck et al;

You rightly say that if people can not judge the height about the runway that they are going to make arrivals not landings and that most people that struggle may well find that this is due to poor instructing.

However you fail to indicate how you do it or how you instruct your pupils.

While I happily admit that with experience it is perfectly possible to land without using the looking in the distance and watch the angle of approach change method; for those in the early stages of learning the game it seems to be the method that works best.

The problem is that contrary to popular belief you only use stereoscopic view to judge distances of less than 2 meters. For distances over this we use experience.

However the method which relies on looking into the distance we use our ability to judge angles. Humans are a lot better at that than judging dept.

So what I usually do when folk find judging the flare different is just to let them say out loud look in the distance a few times during the latter stages of the approach. Works a treat.

Oh yes and when do you change from looking at the aiming point to looking in the distance? When you are about to overfly your aiming point.

Someone on here mentioned that it is best to stick with one instructor. Agree that it would be bad to have a lot of changes but a bit of variety later on will teach you different things and if ever you feel that you are not progressing I think a change of instructor is an excellent idea. At worst he/she will confirm that taking up fishing would be a good plan but quite often a new set of eyes and a different approach is just what is needed to get going again.

As always, MHO of course

FD

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Flying Dutch:

O.K. I will try and describe how I teach correct height judgement for the flare and height judgement after the flare.

First the flare:

I use a definiable point on the runway as the flare point, usually the first big hash marks and runway numbers. This is the aim point on final, during the last fifty feet in a small airplane the aim point will start to grow in size and also appear to spread out in your vision, at about twenty feet the picture will become quite clear that you are about to fly into the runway. It is at this point that I start the flare with most light bug smashers.

Note:

Rather than describe to the student what I am seeing I have them memorize what they observe at the flare point, this avoids any missunderstanding of what I am trying to describe. By using this method the student will quickly imprint the picture that she / he is seeing.

Once the flare is started you then look straight ahead down the runway to the point where apparent movement of the runway markers stop.

What is................... " Apparent movement of the runway " ..........

There is a point ahead of the airplane where the eye will pick up the movement of the runway towards the airplane. This point will change with the speed of the airplane.

For little Bug Smashers that approach in the 50 to 70 knot speed envelope the apparent movement of the runway,,, runway marks, will be approximately five hundred feet ahead of the airplane.

That is the distance ahead of the airplane that your center of sight should be aimed at. This will give you the proper picture that will allow you to best judge height.

The reason that this works is you can "see" the runway get closer in your peripheral vision as the runway movement close to the airplane changes. Also you can "see" the far end of the runway in the top of your peripheral vision, this is your attitude guide that allows you to change the attitude as speed and lift decays.

Ideally the airplane should contact the runway in the attitude that the stall occurs. ( Except wheel landings in taildraggers. )

If the nose blocks out your view ahead as you increase the nose up attitude during the hold off all you need do is move your head and sight line to the side and look along the side nose at the runway still using the same distance ahead that gives the picture that you need. Where apparent movement stops.

Note as you slow down the runway movement picture moves progressively closer. ( About three to five hundred feet ahead is just about right at touch down.


I have an excellent movie that was taken at Airbus Industries during my A320 training and I use it when describing what to look for when determining where the apparent runway movement stops. The beauty of the movie is I can stop it and show the point on the runway where this occurs, then start it up again.

Also the movie is perfect for the flare picture, the A320 approaches at a higher speed than a light aircraft but the picture remains the same when looking at the flare point, it just happens faster. ( oh by the way you don't actually flare an A320 like you do a Bug Smasher but the height judgement is the same. ( aided by the computer voice giving you exact height. )

I am willing to keep answering any and all questions about how I teach height and speed judgement, all I wish to do is make flying safer and easier for those who fly for the love of it.

My system works because I have been perfecting it for fifty years and I used to teach crop dusting where if you do not know how to accurately judge height and speed you die.

So if you all want me to keep explaining my method I am willing to type until everyone understands how I do it.

By the way:::

I use a camcorder for all my advanced flight training, when the student fu..s up it is easy to review it right after the flight and explain where it started to go wrong and how to prevent repeating the fu.. up.

Cat Driver:

The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Hi Chuck

Thank you for your excellent post.

I think that we are talking about the same technique but may be name things a bit different!

The point where it becomes apparent that you are to smash into the aiming point and where you say you start the flare is what I call the roundout. This is where the approach path gets a roundout.

What follows after that with the holding off is what I would call the flare.

Where you say that you look at the point of no apparent motion and say this is about 500 ft away is where I tell them to look in the distance.

From your previous posting it appeared (or so I assumed) that you taught folk to keep looking at the aiming point.

FD

[FlyingForFun]

Chuck,

I will read your posts in detail when I've got more time to spare, because you usually write quality stuff. But I'm very confused by your suggestion that we should not be looking well ahead of the aircraft when flaring. Every pilot, at whatever level, that I've spoken to, and every book I've read, has suggested that you should shift your vision forwards as you flare. After gaining my PPL, I had a period where I simply could not land consistently, and I fixed the problem when I realised that I'd been "forgetting" to shift my vision, as I was taught.

In fact, in Stick And Rudder, which I think is still universally recognised as the "bible" of how to fly, Wolfgang Langewiesche says (on page 296 in my copy):

In landing, the pilot's vision is not directed downards and is not even attempting to perceive depth yet remaining between him and the ground. It is directed well forward at a region of hundreds of feet ahead of the airplane

(my emphasis, not his). So your vision, according to Langewiesche, is most definitely not directed at "the area of the runway where you plan to flare," as you suggest.

As I said, I haven't read your posts in detail yet, I apologise if I've misunderstood or if you've already clarified this one.

FFF
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[Chuck Ellsworth]

F.F.F. :

Good morning.

These damn computers make it difficult for me to clearly express what I am trying to say.

So lets break this down into three distinct phases of the approach and landing.

Phase one:::

The final approach..........your center of sight should be the area on the runway where you plan to flare for the landing.

Phase two:::

The actual flare from the approach attitude to flight parrallel to the runway, to best judge the closure rate and thus your height above the flare point ( that area of the runway where you have planned to change attitude to parrellel the runway ) you should still have your center of sight focused on this point.

Phase three:::

The remainder of the landing phase..........the hold off in the level attitude where speed and lift decays and the airplane sinks toward touch down on the runway........... when you were in the approach attitude you were looking straight ahead at the runway so when the flare starts if you remain looking straight ahead your field of vision will rotate with the attitude change and you will be now looking straight ahead down the runway..........

What seperates a good pilot from a zombie waiting for contact with mother earth is the pilot who can accurately judge height and sink rate to the touchdown while constantly adjusting attitude so as to land at the most desireable attitude...speed.... sink rate for the aircraft being flown.....

Now would you try something next time you are driving down one of your Motorways? At normal motorway speed note the movement of the center line hash marks ( or center line stripes. )

You will note that directly in front of your car the stripes are blurred do to the fast movement of your closure on them.....now look progressively farther ahead and there will be a fixed distance ahead where the apparent movement of the stripes do not seem to be moving toward you.....this will be several hundred feet ahead of your vehicle depending on your eye height above the road and your speed...... that is the distance ahead that will give the best visual clues for speed , height and sink rate......

This is because your eyes will be able to compute your position in space by comparing near...center...and far distances to best form the picture...

So.......as Wolfgang stated you look well foward at a distance of several hundred feet ahead of the airplane...

But that is only after you have actually changed your attitude from the approcah attitude to the actual flare....

P.S.

Dont crash your car while playing around with the road stripes picture.

If anyone still needs more or a better description of what I am trying to say...just ask.


Cat Driver:
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.