Judging The Flare
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
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JWF:
Thanks.
When even one instructor goes out and experiments with my suggestions and thereby forms a new method of thought, actions, and speech thereby improving his / her instructional methods it makes my efforts worthwile.
Next maybe you could experiment with that point in the distance where apparent movement of runway markings seem to stop moving, for optimum point of sight for judging height changes during the rest of the hold off and landing.
Good luck:
Cat Driver:
Thanks.
When even one instructor goes out and experiments with my suggestions and thereby forms a new method of thought, actions, and speech thereby improving his / her instructional methods it makes my efforts worthwile.
Next maybe you could experiment with that point in the distance where apparent movement of runway markings seem to stop moving, for optimum point of sight for judging height changes during the rest of the hold off and landing.
Good luck:
Cat Driver:
Join Date: May 2001
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I have more experience than most of you here and only a fraction of Chuck's. 3000 hours, mostly on narrow and wide-body jets... current type is 757/767.
I took a PA38 up for a blast in Florida yesterday for the first time in nearly five years with an instructor. Great fun, nice and easy circuits, beautiful approach and then....
The instructor said the only guy who had flared higher than me was a 747 captain he'd had in the other week..... go-around, try again. Try as I might, I could not get the height correct as I have been too conditioned with the view from a 767 flight-deck.
My instructor pretty much said what Chuck did, but I couldn't erase a few years of 'runway picture' from my head in an afternoon. I'm sure if I gave it a couple of days, I'd be there, but you peops can probably (actualy, definitely !) put a light a/c down better than I can.
Once you've been taught correctly and seen the picture, you will be able to land properly, on any length of runway that is appropriate to your type. Do not doubt it. Just make sure your instruction is good ! Experience will make your approaches and landings straightforward, if not always easy.... hell, I can land a 180-tonne aircraft onto an 8000ft runway and have loads to spare, but I had to go around in a PA38 ??!! Humbled... it's easy to forget that light aircraft flying is a definite learned/trained skill and not just some puddle-jumpers that gets in the way during an approach into Sanford.
Take all the info on board at this stage, but when you are more experienced, you will be able to sort through the instruction and pick & choose which parts you want in your own flying reportoire. At this point in your flying, though.. sponge it up, especially from guys as well versed as Chuck.
All the best
I took a PA38 up for a blast in Florida yesterday for the first time in nearly five years with an instructor. Great fun, nice and easy circuits, beautiful approach and then....
The instructor said the only guy who had flared higher than me was a 747 captain he'd had in the other week..... go-around, try again. Try as I might, I could not get the height correct as I have been too conditioned with the view from a 767 flight-deck.
My instructor pretty much said what Chuck did, but I couldn't erase a few years of 'runway picture' from my head in an afternoon. I'm sure if I gave it a couple of days, I'd be there, but you peops can probably (actualy, definitely !) put a light a/c down better than I can.
Once you've been taught correctly and seen the picture, you will be able to land properly, on any length of runway that is appropriate to your type. Do not doubt it. Just make sure your instruction is good ! Experience will make your approaches and landings straightforward, if not always easy.... hell, I can land a 180-tonne aircraft onto an 8000ft runway and have loads to spare, but I had to go around in a PA38 ??!! Humbled... it's easy to forget that light aircraft flying is a definite learned/trained skill and not just some puddle-jumpers that gets in the way during an approach into Sanford.
Take all the info on board at this stage, but when you are more experienced, you will be able to sort through the instruction and pick & choose which parts you want in your own flying reportoire. At this point in your flying, though.. sponge it up, especially from guys as well versed as Chuck.
All the best
Join Date: Dec 2001
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The transition from airliner back to little airplane resulted in our single Commanchee being dumped from a great height into Swansea some years back.
However I am sure the transition from airliner to single takes a lot less hours than the transition from single to airliner.
Its nice to know the professionals still like our sort of flying.
However I am sure the transition from airliner to single takes a lot less hours than the transition from single to airliner.
Its nice to know the professionals still like our sort of flying.
Join Date: May 2001
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Ah yes, but bear in mind we generally put the automatics in at around 1500ft after T/O, and take them out at around the same height on landing, unless it is a fantastically good day ! We don't pole it about like light a/c pilots.
I've archived Chuck's instruction here and I am determined to go back and sort it out.... I'm used to flying by numbers, so I need some science to help me back into the smaller machines.
Do not think that light or general aviation is in someway inferior to heavy jet flying. It is not. It requires a different skill set, approach and mind-set. You can be the guy who does the £100 burger flights every Summer, or you can learn as much as possible about aviation and maximise the license and skills you have.
I am now just able to afford light a/c flying, and I am learning a lot of skills I have long since forgotten, including landing ! Sorry, what was that... I need to use the rudder for turns ??!!
I've archived Chuck's instruction here and I am determined to go back and sort it out.... I'm used to flying by numbers, so I need some science to help me back into the smaller machines.
Do not think that light or general aviation is in someway inferior to heavy jet flying. It is not. It requires a different skill set, approach and mind-set. You can be the guy who does the £100 burger flights every Summer, or you can learn as much as possible about aviation and maximise the license and skills you have.
I am now just able to afford light a/c flying, and I am learning a lot of skills I have long since forgotten, including landing ! Sorry, what was that... I need to use the rudder for turns ??!!
Join Date: Sep 2006
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I flew gliders in the military (sports not combat, im not that old) and had difficulty landing, either plonking her down too early and rather hard or landing loooooooooong.
I was learning to fly a three axis ultralight (czech TL-96) and had the same problems.. I finally did my PPL on Zlins and found they just about landed themselves, with over 300 landings (i'm still a sprog) and only three or four which have made me wince... my instructors taught me to choose an aim point and watch that, then when I can judge about a metre up (severe ground rush at that height) switch my line of sight to the horizon and start the flare with progressive back movement of the stick till its on its back stop, by which time I'm on the ground and slowing down
However I have recently been type rated for the C172 and find I'm landing loooooooong again and ballooning in the flare, even with 40 degrees of flaps, in the Zlin I use under half the strip in the Cessna i'm well over half, which makes touch and goes rather hairy at times (specially with that poxy electric flaps switch which tends to close the flaps totally on me)
I guess as everyone says its practice practice practice.... but I'd rather fly the Zlins to tell the truth, the Cessna handles like a transit van compared to the zlins
I
I was learning to fly a three axis ultralight (czech TL-96) and had the same problems.. I finally did my PPL on Zlins and found they just about landed themselves, with over 300 landings (i'm still a sprog) and only three or four which have made me wince... my instructors taught me to choose an aim point and watch that, then when I can judge about a metre up (severe ground rush at that height) switch my line of sight to the horizon and start the flare with progressive back movement of the stick till its on its back stop, by which time I'm on the ground and slowing down
However I have recently been type rated for the C172 and find I'm landing loooooooong again and ballooning in the flare, even with 40 degrees of flaps, in the Zlin I use under half the strip in the Cessna i'm well over half, which makes touch and goes rather hairy at times (specially with that poxy electric flaps switch which tends to close the flaps totally on me)
I guess as everyone says its practice practice practice.... but I'd rather fly the Zlins to tell the truth, the Cessna handles like a transit van compared to the zlins
I
Join Date: Jul 2012
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Approach and Flare
Hey there! I'm a PPL student and I have been flying for quite some time now and I am currently in the circuits stage. I did perform glide approaches, flapless and full flaps approaches so I am quite familiar with the different configurations. The problem is that I can't seem to fully understand and furthermore, put it into practice, the idea that pitch alters the speed and power changes the approach path.
Whenever I end up on a low approach path, I do add power yet alter the pitch setting also. The reason behind this is that I do not feel comfortable with the aircraft having to recover from a low approach at such a slow rate (ie: it takes too long to return to its proper approach path), thus I usually pitch up. Is this a correct technique? On the other hand, when it comes to flaring, I do not always carry out a smooth landing though in general, my instructors advises me just to hold the aircraft a little longer and pull back on the control column a little further.
The technique that I have been thought is that a few feet above the runway, you level out with the runway and hold the aircraft in that position, gradually increasing back pressure until the main wheels touch the ground then gently lowering the nose. I do not have any problem with this technique yet would greatly appreciate any tips and tricks from your experiences as pilots. Thanks
Whenever I end up on a low approach path, I do add power yet alter the pitch setting also. The reason behind this is that I do not feel comfortable with the aircraft having to recover from a low approach at such a slow rate (ie: it takes too long to return to its proper approach path), thus I usually pitch up. Is this a correct technique? On the other hand, when it comes to flaring, I do not always carry out a smooth landing though in general, my instructors advises me just to hold the aircraft a little longer and pull back on the control column a little further.
The technique that I have been thought is that a few feet above the runway, you level out with the runway and hold the aircraft in that position, gradually increasing back pressure until the main wheels touch the ground then gently lowering the nose. I do not have any problem with this technique yet would greatly appreciate any tips and tricks from your experiences as pilots. Thanks
Join Date: Oct 2011
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I actually had some problems flaring believe it or not. Simply because I was worried about over flaring and slamming it down with possible fuselage damage. Of course this ended up in my Landings being pretty flat and hard! Just takes a little confidence and practice for me at least.
The way I'm taught it pretty much aim for the numbers, power out, keep trying to let it fly whilst looking down the centerline.
The way I'm taught it pretty much aim for the numbers, power out, keep trying to let it fly whilst looking down the centerline.
Join Date: Jul 2012
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To steal a line from another PPRuNer:
Holy ancient threads, Batman!
Holy ancient threads, Batman!
Ten years old! Wonder what happened to young Aidan, not so young Aidan now. Probably flying for Ryanair judging by some of the landings I've endured.
Still the advice here never gets old.
Surprised this thread wasn't archived.
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Time sure does pass bluecode, I retired from flying in 2005 and have never had a moments regret that I retired.
I was seventy the year I finally decided enough was enough and spent my last summer flying in the air show circuit based in Holland, just thinking of pulling high plus and negative G's now makes me happy I am out of it.
I read this whole thread and am surprised I had the initiative and patience to keep trying to explain such simple basic issues as how to flare and land.....but it looks like some people actually made the effort to read and understand what I was trying to get across.
P.S.....
I am still healthy enough to go back to flying aerobatics if I wanted to.
Chuck E.
I was seventy the year I finally decided enough was enough and spent my last summer flying in the air show circuit based in Holland, just thinking of pulling high plus and negative G's now makes me happy I am out of it.
I read this whole thread and am surprised I had the initiative and patience to keep trying to explain such simple basic issues as how to flare and land.....but it looks like some people actually made the effort to read and understand what I was trying to get across.
P.S.....
I am still healthy enough to go back to flying aerobatics if I wanted to.
Chuck E.
