Week long flying trip in SW US and renter's insurance.

[czeslawsender]

Hi,

I'm planning some 5-6 days trip in US at September this year.
The plan includes renting a light twin, and flying VFR with my wife and daughter from Watsonville, south along the coast and then through KLAS to KGCN, over the Grand Canyon and through the Death Valley back to Bay Area.
I assume legs not longer than 2-2.5h (for the comfort of my passengers) and with something to do during the day (I plan for the flying in the morning / late afternoon to avoid heat and/or turbulence).

The initial plan for the 5 days was:

1. KWVI-L52
2. L52-KDAG-KLAS
3. KLAS-KGCN-KFLG
4. KFLG-KHII-L06
5. L06-KSBP-KWVI

The first question is - do you have any remarks/tips/warnings for the route that I've imagined or for the plan at all?

The second set of questions - I assume I would need some kind of renter's insurance for the trip. Do you have any experience on what is the most sensible option? I've seen some Avemco tables on the web, and noticed that what they offer is the full year insurance with broad ranges of rates depending on the coverage amount - is there any chance anyone would like to insure the shorter period? What reasonable protection should I go for?

I have around 500h+ total time, 25h twin time, instructor and instrument ratings on my EASA CPL(A) licence, and will get my FAA PPL(A) attached licence on the arrival in the US. That will be my first time flying in US.

Thanks in advance for all the help!

[dera]

I use AOPA, no complaints (but no experience about claims either, thankfully). I believe most will sell you a 12 month coverage.

Where are you renting the light twin from, if I may ask?

[AdamFrisch]

I don't foresee any troubles with either insurance or your routing, but I do foresee some problem with renting the twin. Many flying clubs demand more multi hours before they allow people to rent it. But maybe you've already taken care of this. KWVI is one of the few airports that have the little Tecnam P2006T for rent - is that the twin you're going for? As long as you can get the twin lined up, you'll love flying here. It's great, really easy and friendly.

Couple of things:

Going into KLAS without an IR rating can be done, but they're pretty busy there and depending on workload might give you the dreaded "stay outside of Bravo airspace" and then you can't get in VFR. In that case, Henderson (KHND) is just a few miles to the south and a really nice airport. The cab ride in to town is only a couple of tenners.

Your routing L06 to KSBP takes you right through the Owens Valley. The Owens Valley is a notoriously turbulent and hot area and you can get into trouble on those leesides at the back of the Sierra Nevada's real quick. I came through there not long ago and Mojave reported 60kts winds on the ground. 60kts! Also, density altitude is a real problem during the days in the high desert. So just watch out and do the calcs for any of the desert airports if you depart during the afternoon. They climb like sh*t.

Practical stuff:

It's pattern, not circuit. They don't know what QNE, QNH or QFE is. They join on the 45 on the downwind. Basic service is called Flight Following and they'll give you a squawk that will last until your destination (unlike many places in Europe). They don't have quadrantal rule, east is odd, west is even +500ft. VFR squawk is 1200, not 7000. You can fly through MOA's, but expect to be target practiced and have some close calls with F18's. Don't bust B airspace without clearance and don't bust R-areas. Watch out for TFR's. They pop up all the time, very short notice.

[Straighten Up]

All that Adam said plus.... I presume you've applied to the FAA and had the CAA confirmation of your licence sent to them already? This can take up to 12 weeks (mine took about 6) BEFORE they invite you to the nearest FAA centre where they give you a temporary paper licence and post your Wright Brothers card to you at home.

Flying in the US is fantastic, easy airspace, great ATC and free landing almost everywhere. If you uplift fuel you can normally get a crew car for a few hours as well.

For Grand Canyon but and study the vfr chart. You have to transit through special corridors at 11500 northbound and 10500 southbound. Not sure if you're going pressurised or carrying oxygen but in a 172 I felt light headed and decided to descend. Still probably one of the best flights I ever did. Fuel at Grand Canyon is very expensive so try and avoid filling up there.

Enjoy.

[Cusco]

Do get Renters' Insurance....

[Katamarino]

Usually you can cancel the renters insurance policy after the trip and get a 50% refund. Makes sense unless you plan another trip within the 12 months.

They usually want a US address for the renters insurance. When I lived in Europe, I'd just use the FBO address and that was fine.

[czeslawsender]

@dera: Thanks. It is Ocean Air Flight Services at Watsonville.

@AdamFrisch: Thanks for all the valuable tips. Yes, it is the one I'm thinking of. I did all my twin flying on the same make and model, so I am familiar with it - I do not want to have both unfamiliar plane and unfamiliar environment at the same time.
KHND is already my backup plan for KLAS, thanks for the hint.
On my way from L06 I was planning to through TRONA, then MOJAVE, then getting west, with quite early in the morning departure to avoid the heat. I also looked up the historical temperatures, and end of September looks much better in terms of the average temperatures than July or August. Do you think there could be a better way out?

@Straighten Up: Thanks for the tips! I already have my validation letter, and have scheduled an FSDO appointment, so I expect no surprises here.
I do have the paper copy of the VFR chart for Grand Canyon and I am familiar with the corridors. Tecnam P2006T is not pressurised and I do not expect it to have any oxygen installation, so I think the best I can do is to monitor the reactions and back off if necessary. Theroretically, the 11500ft should be safe, especially that the flight there will not take long. Thanks for the warning.

@Cusco: This is exactly my intention, I however are puzzled a bit with all those coverage options. What is the sensible level I should aim for? Can the FBOs insurer sue me for the total hull damage in case anything happens while there was no negligence on my side? If so, then the protection I should aim for is basically the one that covers the total replacement cost, while the max hull damage coverage in the table is $150.000, with the absurdly high cost (especially as for the 5 days trip).

@Katamarino: Thanks, this is very good to know. Is that cancellation right and the associated refund a general law that governs this area, or is it individually stated in the T&Cs of the insurance?

[Cusco]

The FBO should have the hull insured to a suitable level before you fly: Check this before you sign the rental agreement.

Renters' insurance in my case was to cover the cost of 'deductibles' or insurance excesses and is analogous to the collision damage waiver payment in car rental.

I had good reason to have taken out Renters' insurance many years ago when I totalled an Archer in the mountains: my Renters' insurance (cost $120) covered in full the cost of deductibles of $5K.

The hull loss was covered by the FBO/Owners hull insurance.

I had reason to be thankful as I had rented several times before in US and had never used Renters' Insurance previously.

[Victorian]

Renter's Insurance is a confused situation IMHO. At least one of the well known brokers will take instructions from a foreigner and even put your correct foreign address on the documents that they email to you. However, they still insist on a US mailing address "to send the paperwork to". All rather odd. I wonder how much they pass on to the underwriters.

Regarding your planned flight, I strongly recommend that you make use of the free 1-800-wx-brief service to file your VFR flightplan, check on Notams and TFR's and get the weather, all from a human being who will (almost) always be extremely helpful.

Do get Foreflight on your iPad if you have one. Foreflight is different to UK offerings, much more intuitive and reliable. It also uses the real sectional chart and overlays real time weather.

I agree the comments on KLAS, especially as the FBO is on the 'wrong' side of the airport and the benefits you thought you were going to get, like free hotel shuttles, don't work out. Personally I always go to VGT which has a Hertz rental desk (phone ahead). If you get a car you don't need a hotel reservation and can shop around for prices on the day. There's a bank of free hotel courtesy phones in the lobby at VGT. A cab from either Henderson or VGT will be $30 - $50 anyway.

GCN is not the fearful place that some people describe but can be busy with tour traffic. Be sure of your DA calculations and expect the ground roll to be longer than you are used to. It's 7000' altitude but you've got 9,000' of runway. Resist the temptation to rotate early.

Consider an overnight stop at GCN because getting around the park on the shuttle bus takes longer than you'd expect and the afternoon turbulence may be accompanied by t-storms. There are modern hotels at Tusayan, the village next to the airport, within walking distance along a path through the woods (perhaps not with kids and baggage!). Expect to wait a long time at the airport for a cab. Maybe the hotels pick up?

Flagstaff is a lovely airport and the town now has modern hotels, at least one of which picks up. Don't miss the observatory. The kids will enjoy looking through the telescopes (for a while) but avoid the lectures! Another high altitude / early morning departure. Consider a side trip to Meteor crater and Sedona, again not the difficult place often described except perhaps in strong winds.

Lake Havasu is a gorgeous airport with a terrific FBO, Desert Skies. They will lend you a courtesy van and you will need it because it's 7 miles downtown. If you ask nicely they might even let you keep the van overnight. Don't get me started on courtesy car insurance! The London Bridge is interesting but I bet the kids won't think much of it and the 'London Village' is decrepit. The hotels are Ok and you can do waterskiing. Best part is flying along the Colorado river.

Enjoy your trip!

[alland2012]

I'm over in Florida 4 times a year for periods of 6 weeks per trip, so get to fly quite often, I have renters insurance through Avemco, I asked the FBO on what level of cover I should go for. They advised on all deductables plus $15,000 hull damage, and that's renting a 2007 C172SP G1000 equipped aircraft, The FBO are happy carrying the rest of the liability on the plane on their insurance. Cost for 12 months $287.00 I'm happy with that.

And another for Foreflight, I have the Pro subscription but the basic subscription is more than good enough for your needs.

[czeslawsender]

@Victorian:

Thanks for the tips! This address thing is confusing, indeed.
I'm wondering should I rather use the FBOs address, or some friends in US? Could that cause them any trouble?

I know about the 1-800-WX-BRIEF, I also planned to use ForeFlight and the ability to file the flight plan from within the App. Right now I'm waiting for the SAFE membership to be recognised by ForeFlight to get the discount on the FF Pro (I suppose it is worth to go for Pro, for the terrain and flight hazards?).

I had some experience in flying in South Africa, so I've seen what high PA does to the performance - really disturbing for the first time, when 22' is max what you get on MP, and it takes ages and hundreds of meters to get to rotation speed on almost empty C182.

I've seen on the web there is a bus shuttle going from GC Village to Tusayan, but NPS site has info that it runs only until Sep 5th.
And given your advice about the taxis, and the fact that land-based sightseeing Grand Canyon with a 4 year old might be challenging anyways, so I'm considering an option when we overfly it, land on KGCN to have some rest, and then head directly to Flagstaff.

And for the cars at the FBOs and the insurance - do I need an extra coverage here as well? Gee...

@alland2012:

My understanding of the risks of not having the renter's insurance is that even if FBOs policy covers the damage, the insurer of the FBOs later goes after you to get their money back. But that would mean that I would need basically the same coverage as the FBO, which would be rather insane.
Anyways, I've asked FBO. Thanks for the hint!

@Cusco:

Thanks for the help. Good that you are ok!

[Silvaire1]

And given your advice about the taxis, and the fact that land-based sightseeing Grand Canyon with a 4 year old might be challenging anyways, so I'm considering an option when we overfly it, land on KGCN to have some rest, and then head directly to Flagstaff.

I'd try and see it from the rim, standing there quietly on the edge is something you'll remember. Its a long way to the bottom or the other side

As already noted, the hotels in Tusayan are not far from the airport, although too far for a 4 year old to walk. The helicopter ride FBO is typically buzzing with people and I've got to imagine that they could sort out a taxi if nobody else was around. It also wouldn't surprise me if somebody gave you a ride in their car. Once you're at one of the hotels in town you could get a Jeep tour if that appeals. The leave right from the hotel area, and although not cheap might be good with a youngster.

Foreflight will make life much, much easier.

[172driver]

If indeed you intend to fly the little Tecnam, then I would strongly suggest you do performance calculations for all airports you intend to use *before* even leaving Europe. You may find that with the DAs in that area the Tecnam is not a viable option for your trip.

Other than that - as Adam says.

[czeslawsender]

@Silvaire1:

Oh, I've been there, on the rim, and also few hours down the Kaibab trail as well (this one was much better than standing with the crowd), I just wonder if 4 year old will actually appreciate that particular view enough now. Maybe I should just go back in 2-3 years and hike one of the trails with her.
But I'll see when I'm there, how easy is to get there.

@172driver:

I do not think that Tecnam is such a bad performer.
The performance charts from POH show that for PA 8000ft and OAT 25'C ground roll should be 710m, and 50ft obstacle 934m, for grass runway, so less for paved.
This x 115% equals 1074m. Flagstaff is more than twice that, so is KGCN.
Those are two most challenging from the DA perspective. The only one that is short is L06 at Death Valley - it is hot, but low elevations.
So correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the airports that I've chosen are pretty much on the safe side, performance wise.

[172driver]

If you run your figures and they check out, then you should of course be OK. I'm just not sure I'd want to fly in that area in an a/c with a service ceiling of 15k ft and the associated sluggish performance once you get close to that. But as you say you know the thing well.....

On a different note re your insurance: in the US in general the renter's insurance is '50% earned' on inception. That means that if you cancel after your trip, you get 50% back, not any pro-rated figure.

For ground transportation just call the FBOs, they can and will arrange that. Typically the lineman will drive the rental car right up to your airplane

You could also drive from Flagstaff to the south rim of the Grand Canyon. Takes about an hour and a half. Hang out there a little with your child, then back to Flagstaff and go flying. If you do decide to overnight at GCN, make sure you check hotel availability! The place does get crowded...

PS: if you like beer, there's a great microbrewery in Flagstaff, right across the tracks from the train station!

[RatherBeFlying]

Oxygen is a funny thing. Acclimatisation helps. My first time at 12,500 I dropped a bunch of IQ points and got engrossed in determining which altimeter needle was what -- and I live at 4000'. Post flight had a headache and felt really tired.

Beginning the glider season, I start oxygen at 9000' and run the flow a bit high.

Last month I was at 9000' for 3 hours a couple times without oxygen and felt just fine.

If you happen to be a smoker, you will need oxygen at lower altitudes.

Dumb mistakes and hypoxia go together.

[Frontal]

You mention that you have your letter of validation, but it is also worth setting up your account on the FAA IACRA website, as your license will be processed and issued from there.

Nowadays the FAA (some regions yes and some regions no) are moving away from the booked visit to the regional FAA office, and are sending out lists of FPE's (foreign pilot examiners) and you are free to make your own appointment with an FPE that lives close to you.

[Victorian]

I didn't mean to put you off going to the rim. My own daughter (9 months at the time) said her very first word there, right at the rim: "Hi!". I'm sure your 4 year old will remember it for a very long time. Cabs take about 30 mins to get from the rim to the airport, hence the hour's wait I mentioned. The quickest round trip, plane - rim - plane, will need 3 hours. I stopped there for lunch in May and that's exactly what it took.

[custardpsc]

I have recenty posted on renters insurance in the North American section here.

http://www.pprune.org/north-america/...insurance.html

This , I am afraid is becoming an area of fear , uncertainty and doubt just like rental car extras, that verges on exploiting the end user. My personal opinion is that I will only rent from places that cover the aircraft properly, don't act as sales agents for renters insurance, and doesn't attempt to blur or obfuscate the lines of responsibility for cover or attempt to make it the renters problem.

Yes, if you total the aircraft there is a deductible. Are the insurance company likely to come after you for anything else afterwards ? maybe if you were grossly negligent, drunk or whatever. Will renters insurance cover any of those situations? hardly.

At best, renters insurance is just a back door charging method to allow flying clubs to reduce their own coverage. At worst they are acting as agent for selling the cover, thereby taking a cut and making a load more things your responsibility.

I'd walk away frrom any rental that required this type of coverage.

[Victorian]

Foreflight have just announced today that they have finally and belatedly integrated the Grand Canyon special rules chart into their coverage. This hard to get sectional (my copy is dated 1998!) was a major defect in their system up to now because it's the only chart that actually shows the corridors.

I've previously navigated using hand created waypoints and a B&W VFR guide published long ago by the FAA that shows the visual landmarks at each end of each corridor. Beware that trying to fly the corridors by VOR/DME is treacherous and the ground features all look the same on the sectional! Having the corridors in Foreflight will be a real luxury!