Ukraine Crisis 2014
FWIW, if you don't fight the Putains of the world then they will rape you and kill your cow. If you see them doing it to someone else, you should look at it as a chance to get them while you still have a potential ally left.
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Putin hasn't landed on earth overnight. We in the west have played a terrible hand against him and Russia over the last of many years. It seems he is building a block against our very pushy EU expansionism/western expansionism that has been going right up to his own countries border.
WTF did these shallow greedy politicians expect, really>? In his reaction I mean?
Need to de-escalate the situation.
If (I'm sorry) the Ukraine loses a bit or even a lot of its hectares to keep it all sweet, well crack on. That's their hard cheese.
Cameron needs to look behind him and keep Britain, the British people safe and alive and not placed into this terrible gamble.
WTF did these shallow greedy politicians expect, really>? In his reaction I mean?
Need to de-escalate the situation.
If (I'm sorry) the Ukraine loses a bit or even a lot of its hectares to keep it all sweet, well crack on. That's their hard cheese.
Cameron needs to look behind him and keep Britain, the British people safe and alive and not placed into this terrible gamble.
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Its hardly worth having a nuclear war that wipes out all life on Earth to prevent it.
All this appeasement stuff was said before WW2, nip it in the bud whilst its still small scale.
If (I'm sorry) the Ukraine loses a bit or even a lot of its hectares to keep it all sweet, well crack on. That's their hard cheese.
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I found it particularly amusing the other week when Cameron said hey guys and gals we need to be spending more on Defence now to the other NATO nations..
Too bad both Him Johnny Maggie and the other chums Tony and Gordo have spent the last 24 tearing the bloody armed forces to shreds
And do we really think they will open a clean sheet order book
Thought not
V1
Too bad both Him Johnny Maggie and the other chums Tony and Gordo have spent the last 24 tearing the bloody armed forces to shreds
And do we really think they will open a clean sheet order book
Thought not
V1
Stand up to him for what exactly? Marching into a Russian speaking enclave and fighting WITH the people trying to rejoin Russia, people who are cheering the columns of Russian armored vehicles as they pass by?
If he was invading Hungary or Poland it would be a different story.
However, and in complete opposition to my Chamberlain like stance, I find it impossible to forget that one of Herr Hitler's first moves was the unopposed annexation of Austria, something that was also cheered on by that nation's general populace. At the same time German forces began paying less concern to national boundaries and it has just been reported that Russian military aircraft now violate Finnish airspace with alarming regularity - something that is understandably alarming to the Finns who want no trouble with the Sovie.....err I mean Russians.
And now we hear that sanctions are bringing the Russian economy to near depression.
The parallels are not exact, but they are uncomfortably close to the events of 1935 - 38.
If he was invading Hungary or Poland it would be a different story.
However, and in complete opposition to my Chamberlain like stance, I find it impossible to forget that one of Herr Hitler's first moves was the unopposed annexation of Austria, something that was also cheered on by that nation's general populace. At the same time German forces began paying less concern to national boundaries and it has just been reported that Russian military aircraft now violate Finnish airspace with alarming regularity - something that is understandably alarming to the Finns who want no trouble with the Sovie.....err I mean Russians.
And now we hear that sanctions are bringing the Russian economy to near depression.
The parallels are not exact, but they are uncomfortably close to the events of 1935 - 38.
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Chickens rapidly came home to roost.
Putin has exposed many shortcomings within the "West". The EU has looked very much a bullying, greedy, aggressively expanding, capitalist apparatus that has pushed right to the Russian border. And now look what happened? Its looking over its shoulder to see who in this gang is now with it.
We, the UK need to look carefully again who we share a platform with. The very thought of actually committing troops and our country, yet again, for these horrible places in the east leaves me cold. Let them all get on with it and for once leave us out.
The US President wont be pushing America into this either if he has any sense at all.
This crisis also has the potential to destroy NATO unity.
*If, God forbid, we did commit our own UK forces into this maelstrom, then what happens to the Scottish element if and combat begins? This war would be not one iota of use to the Scottish nation - the Scottish leader would be quite right to call his countrymen away from the fighting.
Cameron is sleepwalking Britain, this island even, into a disaster.
We, the UK need to look carefully again who we share a platform with. The very thought of actually committing troops and our country, yet again, for these horrible places in the east leaves me cold. Let them all get on with it and for once leave us out.
The US President wont be pushing America into this either if he has any sense at all.
This crisis also has the potential to destroy NATO unity.
*If, God forbid, we did commit our own UK forces into this maelstrom, then what happens to the Scottish element if and combat begins? This war would be not one iota of use to the Scottish nation - the Scottish leader would be quite right to call his countrymen away from the fighting.
Cameron is sleepwalking Britain, this island even, into a disaster.
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Putin appears to be offering a way (his way) out.
Vladimir Putin demands negotiations over 'statehood' for eastern Ukraine - Telegraph
In a nutshell, looking increasingly today that Ukraine ground forces are on the back-foot and being forced back from their eastern borders contended/conflict area.
Putin possibly wants to seize this moment to force they accept the situation, probably redraw the map to reflect what he wants.
The deep cynic in me thinks and even hopes this may be a opportunity for everyone to put away their weaponry and call it a day?
Ukraine has lost, should now swallow its pride and accept the inevitable?
An opportunity to avoid a further escalation, dragging the west in?
Is this the template example of how to get your way in 21st century neighbour-management warfare?
http://rt.com/news/184040-ukraine-putin-peace-plan/
His comments about telling the Ukrainians to think about their heating plans and arrangements for the coming Winter drew an eyebrow.
http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/newsdes...ce-gas-imports
Looking further into it we import about 40 to 50% of our coal from Russia (one of the reasons for the mini boom at the Tyne Dock these days I guess, so I hope David Cameron realises he can always rely on our UK coal mines to bail him out if he needs them). Oh, irony you little imp.
In a nutshell, looking increasingly today that Ukraine ground forces are on the back-foot and being forced back from their eastern borders contended/conflict area.
Putin possibly wants to seize this moment to force they accept the situation, probably redraw the map to reflect what he wants.
The deep cynic in me thinks and even hopes this may be a opportunity for everyone to put away their weaponry and call it a day?
Ukraine has lost, should now swallow its pride and accept the inevitable?
An opportunity to avoid a further escalation, dragging the west in?
Is this the template example of how to get your way in 21st century neighbour-management warfare?
http://rt.com/news/184040-ukraine-putin-peace-plan/
His comments about telling the Ukrainians to think about their heating plans and arrangements for the coming Winter drew an eyebrow.
http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/newsdes...ce-gas-imports
Looking further into it we import about 40 to 50% of our coal from Russia (one of the reasons for the mini boom at the Tyne Dock these days I guess, so I hope David Cameron realises he can always rely on our UK coal mines to bail him out if he needs them). Oh, irony you little imp.
Last edited by Hangarshuffle; 31st Aug 2014 at 21:02. Reason: Spelling.Talisker.
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It doesn't matter who relies on it.. The price goes up for everyone as the Germans et al start hoovering up supplies from elsewhere.
Time to get fracking I feel. And to distance ourselves from the whole thing.
Time to get fracking I feel. And to distance ourselves from the whole thing.
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Open our own mines again?
105 million tonnes UK coal left at estimate but mostly under the North Sea.
*30 years ago last week the siege of Easington Colliery began. After months of strike action one miner cracked and asked to go back to work. Under prior arrangement with the Police and the NUM it had been arranged for the returning worker to walk in through the front gate. But at the last minute the police decided to shuffle him in via the back door. This caused a pretty nasty riot, with the result being that the police decided to lock down under force the entire little town for 3 weeks. No one in or out. This actually happened in the UK, but you wont ever read much about it anywhere, and who cares now anyway except the wounded party?
Anyway, the miners lost the strike and the colliery closed in I think about 1993. But the coals still down there, loads of it. Future wiser generations may decide to get at it again, who knows?
Don't know why I posted that on here, just seemed interesting in the current climate. We are prepared to potentially front up to Russia, yet use her Gas, Oil and Coal. Sell her folk our finest houses in London, then place embargos on money transfers. Wonder what Putin thinks?
*30 years ago last week the siege of Easington Colliery began. After months of strike action one miner cracked and asked to go back to work. Under prior arrangement with the Police and the NUM it had been arranged for the returning worker to walk in through the front gate. But at the last minute the police decided to shuffle him in via the back door. This caused a pretty nasty riot, with the result being that the police decided to lock down under force the entire little town for 3 weeks. No one in or out. This actually happened in the UK, but you wont ever read much about it anywhere, and who cares now anyway except the wounded party?
Anyway, the miners lost the strike and the colliery closed in I think about 1993. But the coals still down there, loads of it. Future wiser generations may decide to get at it again, who knows?
Don't know why I posted that on here, just seemed interesting in the current climate. We are prepared to potentially front up to Russia, yet use her Gas, Oil and Coal. Sell her folk our finest houses in London, then place embargos on money transfers. Wonder what Putin thinks?
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Hangarshuffle,
Your (where did it go?) : "Wonder what Putin thinks ?"
Thinks he's got us by the short & curlies - and he may not be far wrong. Am old enough to remember when we were told that sanctions would curb Mussolini - they didn't, he still went into Abyssinia. Same with every time sanctions have been used.
All sanctions involve a restraint of Trade, and the Trade only exists because it is advantageous to both parties, it follows that both will suffer from the restraint - it is a two-edged sword. And if it is put into effect, there will be governments and individuals who have an immediate interest in getting round those same sanctions.
And if both sides are suffering, who is likely to stick it out the longer ? ("Hard pounding, Gentlemen", said Wellington at Waterloo [?] - "we shall see who can pound the longest"). Think of Stalingrad !
Anyway, my guess is that nothing effective will be done by the West. There is no sign of anybody stepping out to "bell the cat". We are "All Mouth and No Trousers !"
Nobody is going to press the nucelar button - we may both be daft, but we're not stupid.
Your (where did it go?) : "Wonder what Putin thinks ?"
Thinks he's got us by the short & curlies - and he may not be far wrong. Am old enough to remember when we were told that sanctions would curb Mussolini - they didn't, he still went into Abyssinia. Same with every time sanctions have been used.
All sanctions involve a restraint of Trade, and the Trade only exists because it is advantageous to both parties, it follows that both will suffer from the restraint - it is a two-edged sword. And if it is put into effect, there will be governments and individuals who have an immediate interest in getting round those same sanctions.
And if both sides are suffering, who is likely to stick it out the longer ? ("Hard pounding, Gentlemen", said Wellington at Waterloo [?] - "we shall see who can pound the longest"). Think of Stalingrad !
Anyway, my guess is that nothing effective will be done by the West. There is no sign of anybody stepping out to "bell the cat". We are "All Mouth and No Trousers !"
Nobody is going to press the nucelar button - we may both be daft, but we're not stupid.
Last edited by Danny42C; 1st Sep 2014 at 21:11. Reason: Now you see it, now you don't !
Wise words indeed Danny, and even today Camoron is demanding in the press that NATO members should spend more on defence! just a smattering of hypocrisy there. I rather think that any serious action should be focused in the land that Bliar created, there's the threat, and that's where our limited military capabilities should be sent if anywhere. Ukraine is a dangerous, EU created, mess.
Smudge
Smudge
Foreigners fighting in Ukraine
Interesting article here about the different nationalities fighting on both sides in Ukraine.
BBC News - Ukraine war pulls in foreign fighters
I can see this getting even more messy.......
BBC News - Ukraine war pulls in foreign fighters
I can see this getting even more messy.......
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Yes, good post that Danny.
I'm at a loss at it. I don't particularly like or dislike Russians or Ukrainians and I work with both. I hate this present spat.
Sanctions did very little in Iraq (or Libya) to affect the dictators life-style or the elite, we now know, but made every Iraqi adult of a certain age I ever met look about 10 years older than they were.
Man to man Putin is a far sharper tool than the POTUS or the PMUK combined. He and his Foreign Minister have outplayed them from the start.
Sanctions did very little in Iraq (or Libya) to affect the dictators life-style or the elite, we now know, but made every Iraqi adult of a certain age I ever met look about 10 years older than they were.
Man to man Putin is a far sharper tool than the POTUS or the PMUK combined. He and his Foreign Minister have outplayed them from the start.
During cold war everyone was in fact very cautious not to do anything really de-stabilizing and to not get into direct conflict with the other side. Both sides only did it via proxies.
A direct military confrontation (which you seem to suggest in this instance) by one side would have definitely eliminated the Blue Planet once and for all. And therefore was a complete No- Go for both sides. Every measure to poke the other sides was indeed always well balanced and restrained. (Leaving aside some Cowboys in the SAC back in the late fifties/early sixties - they didnīt seem to care too much about our nice Blue Island in the big Nothingness).
All this appeasement stuff was said before WW2, nip it in the bud whilst its still small scale.
Could have ended badly if RAF had lost its aircraft over foreign territory when fighting against Luftwaffe over their homeland?
This theory that earlier confrontation would have stopped Hitler still looks stupid to me. But it sounds nice. So simple.
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@henra
yea your sort of right about the example, but its hard to get an exact good one.
Not at all, what I'm saying is, we need to send the message that we are prepared to go all out. I'm of the opinion he doesn't anymore than we do. Unlike the WW2 the results are too catastrophic.
What I'm also saying is, we can go in to Ukraine legally with Ukraine's permission and engage a relatively weak force, without officially confronting the Russians.
He has left that door open by denying any involvement. No I don't think getting involved in WW2 earlier would have saved us there, there where too many variables involved to see how that would have turned out. Hitler was intent on takng over a significant amount of the world, and that wasn't going to change.
As such the cost benefit ratio of us confronting him wasn't going to change. In this case Putin isn't going to take over Europe, he knows that isn't going to be allowed to happen and the consequences of such would be to great. He has smaller strategic ambitions, as such confronting him on a large scale will alter the calculus of what he's doing. But you need to give him a way out at the same time.
This whole sanctions thing is cr@p, there's to much at stake for that sort of thing to work in this game. Our people know it, and are only going though the motions to make it look like where doing something.
yea your sort of right about the example, but its hard to get an exact good one.
A direct military confrontation (which you seem to suggest in this instance) by one side
What I'm also saying is, we can go in to Ukraine legally with Ukraine's permission and engage a relatively weak force, without officially confronting the Russians.
He has left that door open by denying any involvement. No I don't think getting involved in WW2 earlier would have saved us there, there where too many variables involved to see how that would have turned out. Hitler was intent on takng over a significant amount of the world, and that wasn't going to change.
As such the cost benefit ratio of us confronting him wasn't going to change. In this case Putin isn't going to take over Europe, he knows that isn't going to be allowed to happen and the consequences of such would be to great. He has smaller strategic ambitions, as such confronting him on a large scale will alter the calculus of what he's doing. But you need to give him a way out at the same time.
This whole sanctions thing is cr@p, there's to much at stake for that sort of thing to work in this game. Our people know it, and are only going though the motions to make it look like where doing something.
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Just a shame we cannot say oops we got it wrong here is a token nuclear weapon stock back from our / US stocks. I would think Putin would suddenly be screwed.
And the latest from that sad little man who calls himself President of Russia.
"I can take Kiev in two weeks."
What a complete c0ck.
Freeze every single thing they own, and every single rouble outside the Motherland.
No pussying around.
"I can take Kiev in two weeks."
What a complete c0ck.
Freeze every single thing they own, and every single rouble outside the Motherland.
No pussying around.