Ukraine Crisis 2014
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What really peeves me, is this pretext by us in the west to not even give the Ukrainians the ability to defend themselves.
These guys have basically bent over and taken it up the @rse to show restraint and behave professionally, but to what end.
One wonder how good the Ukrainians would be with some descent systems to take them on. And frankly if it needs some "retired personnel" to help out with "training" then why not. Russia has already opened that door and doesn't look like closing it.
A couple a dozen or so mothballed Apache's, A10's etc would do wonders. The politicians are either sitting around knowing that the situation is a fait accompli on Russias behalf and are just going though the motions, or their behind the eight ball.
But if they have any hope of freeing Ukraine, then they need to drastically do something completely unexpected.
These guys have basically bent over and taken it up the @rse to show restraint and behave professionally, but to what end.
One wonder how good the Ukrainians would be with some descent systems to take them on. And frankly if it needs some "retired personnel" to help out with "training" then why not. Russia has already opened that door and doesn't look like closing it.
A couple a dozen or so mothballed Apache's, A10's etc would do wonders. The politicians are either sitting around knowing that the situation is a fait accompli on Russias behalf and are just going though the motions, or their behind the eight ball.
But if they have any hope of freeing Ukraine, then they need to drastically do something completely unexpected.
A couple a dozen or so mothballed Apache's, A10's etc would do wonders.
"What are the Maryland ANG doing in Ukraine with their A-10s?"
"We're on leave"
"We got lost"
etc
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Is the Russian annexation of the Ukraine a threat to our 'national interest' (i.e western powers)?
If someone can explain why Putins excursions are in any way more of a threat to our way of life than say ISIS is at the moment, I'd be honestly interested in hearing the argument.
Other than to the Ukrainians themselves (and I pity them), and other than the fact that 1/4 of a century ago the Sovs were our enemies (the memories remain), what does this action have to do with anyone else?
Please don't give me some moral claptrap about 'freeing the oppressed' or 'righting a wrong'. Coming from anyone belonging to a western 'power', that is pure hypocrisy.
If someone can explain why Putins excursions are in any way more of a threat to our way of life than say ISIS is at the moment, I'd be honestly interested in hearing the argument.
Other than to the Ukrainians themselves (and I pity them), and other than the fact that 1/4 of a century ago the Sovs were our enemies (the memories remain), what does this action have to do with anyone else?
Please don't give me some moral claptrap about 'freeing the oppressed' or 'righting a wrong'. Coming from anyone belonging to a western 'power', that is pure hypocrisy.
The threat to "our" interests is clear; Putin is not interested in any international agreements/common decency in his desire to achieve his aims.
Do most Western countries , per se, give a flying f#ck about the Ukraine? No - Canada does because we have a lot of ex-Ukrainians, but most don't.
How is the Ukraine relevant then? Western countries may no longer assume that the current 'Intent' factor is relevant in Threat = Capability + Intent. Intent can change in a moment and Putin has clearly no bounds on his 'Intent' from a moral/legal standpoint.
Thus, Western countries should remove the geopolitical bounds on their possible actions. In simple terms, they need Armed Forces which are capable of a response should it be necessary (i.e.stronger than now), and less economic dependence on Russia (e.g. not dependent on Russian gas supplies).
The Ukraine may not be important for most, for now, but what options does the West have when Putin picks on somewhere/thing that is important?
Do most Western countries , per se, give a flying f#ck about the Ukraine? No - Canada does because we have a lot of ex-Ukrainians, but most don't.
How is the Ukraine relevant then? Western countries may no longer assume that the current 'Intent' factor is relevant in Threat = Capability + Intent. Intent can change in a moment and Putin has clearly no bounds on his 'Intent' from a moral/legal standpoint.
Thus, Western countries should remove the geopolitical bounds on their possible actions. In simple terms, they need Armed Forces which are capable of a response should it be necessary (i.e.stronger than now), and less economic dependence on Russia (e.g. not dependent on Russian gas supplies).
The Ukraine may not be important for most, for now, but what options does the West have when Putin picks on somewhere/thing that is important?
While it is satisfying to think of military action, the logistics of supporting a few thousand troops from far away vs. half a million troops on the ground in the next country over should give you pause. There are some things it is not practical to do, however much you would like to do it.
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Its amazing to the the microcosm of similarity between small societal social issues and the large ones.
In our society we are slowly going down hill, lethargy and a not my problem attitudes or its somebodies else problem combined with I might get hurt excuse is prevalent.
This is why we are slowly but surely getting more and more of the bystanders not intervening in situations. we are slowly becoming more what about me society.
Now on a international scale, yes are there are some serious practicalities involved. But in essence we are at the stage where we are trying to do things differently, even if flawed. We have been down this road before, turn our heads and think its not our problem. In some regards I regard the European situation as a far greater threat than ISIS.
This is so called present civilizations back yard, if we can't act like decent human beings there, then how the F@#$ do we expect the third world to operate.
Putin is nothing but a bully, throw down the gauntlet in a smart way, and give him a way out, and he will back off.
In our society we are slowly going down hill, lethargy and a not my problem attitudes or its somebodies else problem combined with I might get hurt excuse is prevalent.
This is why we are slowly but surely getting more and more of the bystanders not intervening in situations. we are slowly becoming more what about me society.
Now on a international scale, yes are there are some serious practicalities involved. But in essence we are at the stage where we are trying to do things differently, even if flawed. We have been down this road before, turn our heads and think its not our problem. In some regards I regard the European situation as a far greater threat than ISIS.
This is so called present civilizations back yard, if we can't act like decent human beings there, then how the F@#$ do we expect the third world to operate.
Putin is nothing but a bully, throw down the gauntlet in a smart way, and give him a way out, and he will back off.
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F3, thank you. A well considered and relevant perspective.
I agree with you in a theoretical sense, but I still have doubts about your beliefs in 'intent''.
Putin is taking what he thinks is his, rightly or wrongly depending upon opinion. Why do you think his intent in the future is to want to take what 'isn't his' (from anyones perspective)? Do you fear he is a megalomaniac?
rh, thanks, but thats emotional clap-trap. Yes the Y Generation is all about 'me', thats the fault of the Baby Boomers and the Gen X's. You reap what you sow. But if you want to step in in the Ukraine because it's the 'morally' right thing to do, why don't you advocate military action against every repressive regime on the planet? Surely if there is 'oppression' it's not by degrees, is it? What level of oppression, to your mind, defines when intervention is warranted? Are the North Koreans oppressed? The Iranians? The Commo Red Chinese?
Honestly, whats the difference??
I agree with you in a theoretical sense, but I still have doubts about your beliefs in 'intent''.
Putin is taking what he thinks is his, rightly or wrongly depending upon opinion. Why do you think his intent in the future is to want to take what 'isn't his' (from anyones perspective)? Do you fear he is a megalomaniac?
rh, thanks, but thats emotional clap-trap. Yes the Y Generation is all about 'me', thats the fault of the Baby Boomers and the Gen X's. You reap what you sow. But if you want to step in in the Ukraine because it's the 'morally' right thing to do, why don't you advocate military action against every repressive regime on the planet? Surely if there is 'oppression' it's not by degrees, is it? What level of oppression, to your mind, defines when intervention is warranted? Are the North Koreans oppressed? The Iranians? The Commo Red Chinese?
Honestly, whats the difference??
I have no beliefs about Putin's intents. I don't know his intents, and neither does anyone except Putin himself. It would seem prudent to prepare for every possibility which might improve the security, prestige or progress of Russia, but since it is Putin's views of those things which matter, "we" should prepare for anything.
Well, all the Ukrainian emigrees I've met are nice people, but all the Sith Efrican emigrees have been @ssholes....but that's just me. Do emigrees bring their prejudices with them, or leave them in their country of birth - they aren't all the same.
Honestly, whats the difference??
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Agree 100%. I would like to think that Military strategists in all of 'our' countries are considering eventualities. But that is a long step from intervening in the current situation.
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@Hempy: In addition to the things F3WMB has already said, Poland and the Baltic states are not very excited about the prospect of the neighboring Ukraine being constantly and deliberately destabilized by Tzar Putin I. With both Poland and the Baltic states being members of NATO, that sort of makes it our problem as well.
Seems Like the Fogh is clearing........
NATO chief Anders Fogh Rasmussen urges Canada to boost defence spending - Politics - CBC News
NATO chief Anders Fogh Rasmussen urges Canada to boost defence spending - Politics - CBC News
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At the end of the cold war both Washington and Bonn promised Gorbachev that if Soviet forces withdrew from Eastern Europe there was no chance NATO would move eastwards. So NATO should never have moved east.
There should be no question of any western forces east of Germany.
It was lunacy on our part to expand NATO into the former Warsaw Pact nations and into parts of the former Soviet Union itself. Its as if some are gunning for all out war.
There should be no question of any western forces east of Germany.
It was lunacy on our part to expand NATO into the former Warsaw Pact nations and into parts of the former Soviet Union itself. Its as if some are gunning for all out war.
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Oh really.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/nato...ding-1.2748701
"Alliance 'not considering military options' against Russia but wants to enhance co-operation with Ukraine"
Now thats kind of pretty clear don't you think.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/nato...ding-1.2748701"Alliance 'not considering military options' against Russia but wants to enhance co-operation with Ukraine"
Now thats kind of pretty clear don't you think.
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At the end of the cold war both Washington and Bonn promised Gorbachev that if Soviet forces withdrew from Eastern Europe there was no chance NATO would move eastwards. So NATO should never have moved east.
There should be no question of any western forces east of Germany.
It was lunacy on our part to expand NATO into the former Warsaw Pact nations and into parts of the former Soviet Union itself. Its as if some are gunning for all out war.
There should be no question of any western forces east of Germany.
It was lunacy on our part to expand NATO into the former Warsaw Pact nations and into parts of the former Soviet Union itself. Its as if some are gunning for all out war.
Self determination is Enshrined under the UN Charter. Those countries have the right to determine their futures just as we have in ours.
You would much rather we/they were all vassal states to the new emperor, period.
If you like it that much just do everyone a favour and p### off and live there yourself.
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There should be no question of any western forces east of Germany.
It was lunacy on our part to expand NATO into the former Warsaw Pact nations and into parts of the former Soviet Union itself. Its as if some are gunning for all out war.
It was lunacy on our part to expand NATO into the former Warsaw Pact nations and into parts of the former Soviet Union itself. Its as if some are gunning for all out war.
The fact is NATO didn't move east. East moved west. A chance of freedom and evolving socially is a big draw.
rh, thanks, but thats emotional clap-trap.
No one is saying everything is black and white, least of all me. In this case there has to be a line in the sand drawn, make no mistake about it, this situation is being watched very carefully and how we react to it.
This has the potential to change the direction of major players and set significant events in motion. There is a very big perception that the west is weak, whether that is true or not is irelavent, its the preception.
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Luckily public opinion in the west will prevent NATO from doing anything and causing problems.
The nations may have had the right to apply to NATO but we could have declined to grant them membership, mainly for reasons of logic to prevent war but also to honour the promise made to Gorbachev. As far as the Russian government are concerned it just goes to show the western governments cannot be trusted.
The nations may have had the right to apply to NATO but we could have declined to grant them membership, mainly for reasons of logic to prevent war but also to honour the promise made to Gorbachev. As far as the Russian government are concerned it just goes to show the western governments cannot be trusted.
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Ukraine crisis: Putin says Russia is 'ready to repel any aggression' and compares Ukrainian Government to Nazis - Europe - World - The Independent
Such a brilliant and gifted leader indeed
Such a brilliant and gifted leader indeed
Another reason why this is the West's business is international law. International law is largely unwritten and based on precedent. If Putin annexes or destabilises enough of his neighbouring territories without any formal censure or international response, then such activity (e.g. Sudetenland-type "defence of ethnic minorities") much more likely in other areas and involving different nations (not just Russia). The UN would then be hamstrung by the usual suspects quoting the Ukraine precedent and blocking any action - giving the rest of the world the excuse to do nothing). The world is not made up of ethnically-based states, it is made of sovereign states. Allowing international law to change to incorporate ethnicity groupings as a basis for statehood would destabilise the foundations of western civilization.
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Most people here have no wish to get involved in this and I am sure its the same amongst the populations of all western nations.
If the Russian government wants to rebuild a new USSR then let them. It could actually be a good thing and could lead to a more peaceful and balanced world. It could rival Washington
Its hardly worth having a nuclear war that wipes out all life on Earth to prevent it.
All we need to do in the west is rebuild our forces so we are protected but under no circumstances must those forces be put anywhere close to Russia in a provocative manner and not used for typical western warmongering.
If the Russian government wants to rebuild a new USSR then let them. It could actually be a good thing and could lead to a more peaceful and balanced world. It could rival Washington
Its hardly worth having a nuclear war that wipes out all life on Earth to prevent it.
All we need to do in the west is rebuild our forces so we are protected but under no circumstances must those forces be put anywhere close to Russia in a provocative manner and not used for typical western warmongering.