The blessed Margaret ..
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Always
As with everything, it depends on the spin.
However, there is no doubt that her words are closer to the views of most Scots than are those of Lord Forsyth, who delivered the main address at Saturday’s dinner. And no matter how often the former Scottish Secretary says it, his declaration that Scotland and Britain desperately needed the Thatcher revolution will continue to fall on deaf ears north of the Tweed.
This undeniably, and pathetically, perverse judgement seeks to suggest that Margaret Thatcher somehow sought out this hapless nation for cruel and unnatural punishment. And this is where the poll tax nonsense comes in, with the myth perpetuated — and repeated again by Margaret Curran at the weekend — that Prime Minister Thatcher used Scotland as a “guinea pig” for the hated community charge.
The truth is that it was Scots — albeit Scots Tories — who begged for its early introduction to head off a crippling rates revaluation.
Forsyth’s was an epic, if overlong, tribute to the Iron Lady and, echoing much of what my colleague Simon Heffer said in this newspaper last week, he insisted that only those who had lived — ‘endured’ would have been a better word — through the desperate last years of Callaghan’s Labour government could fully appreciate what a difference the Thatcher victory in 1979 set in train.
Most of all it was her defeat of overweening and omnipotent trade unions that made Britain and Scotland a better place. And when all is said and done, the absolute proof of that particular pudding is that hardly a single comma of Maggie’s union reforms have been altered by eighteen years of Labour rule. And nowhere do I hear, either from Labour or from their social democratic allies in the SNP, even the tiniest whisper that the unions will ever again be granted the powers they once held but which they so thoroughly and disgracefully abused.
I am not sure if Scotland will ever grow up enough to accept that it needed Maggie as much as did the rest of Britain; there will still be the Margaret Currans and my taxi driver friends, havering about how she killed ‘our’ shipyards and steel mills.
This undeniably, and pathetically, perverse judgement seeks to suggest that Margaret Thatcher somehow sought out this hapless nation for cruel and unnatural punishment. And this is where the poll tax nonsense comes in, with the myth perpetuated — and repeated again by Margaret Curran at the weekend — that Prime Minister Thatcher used Scotland as a “guinea pig” for the hated community charge.
The truth is that it was Scots — albeit Scots Tories — who begged for its early introduction to head off a crippling rates revaluation.
Forsyth’s was an epic, if overlong, tribute to the Iron Lady and, echoing much of what my colleague Simon Heffer said in this newspaper last week, he insisted that only those who had lived — ‘endured’ would have been a better word — through the desperate last years of Callaghan’s Labour government could fully appreciate what a difference the Thatcher victory in 1979 set in train.
Most of all it was her defeat of overweening and omnipotent trade unions that made Britain and Scotland a better place. And when all is said and done, the absolute proof of that particular pudding is that hardly a single comma of Maggie’s union reforms have been altered by eighteen years of Labour rule. And nowhere do I hear, either from Labour or from their social democratic allies in the SNP, even the tiniest whisper that the unions will ever again be granted the powers they once held but which they so thoroughly and disgracefully abused.
I am not sure if Scotland will ever grow up enough to accept that it needed Maggie as much as did the rest of Britain; there will still be the Margaret Currans and my taxi driver friends, havering about how she killed ‘our’ shipyards and steel mills.
I suppose I'm not really surprised that yet another thread has partially descended into political rhetoric. Equally, I wouldn't expect everyone to join in unconditional celebration of the life of a great political figure and (as has been said) one of our very few true statesmen as some, clearly disagreed with her policies - that's democracy and fair enough. She was, above all, a patriot who recognized the poor and declining state of Britain and was prepared to stand up and do something about it.
If you really believe that any reasonable politician would deliberately try to destroy British industry then I would suggest that you have been taken in by people with nefarious political ambitions. For example, our coal industry was already unviable and the Trades Unions wanting to increase miners' pay was simply pricing themselves out of an already tenuous market, becoming dominated by countries with resources that were easier to extract and lower labour costs. If she hadn't stood up to Scargill, the outcome would have been no better.
But we all want scapegoats and I am slightly amused that some people are taken in by those all-to-familiar phrases such as, 'This strike is entirely the fault of the Government.' It was entirely the due to the greed and power-seeking Union leaders and the members that were stupid enough to believe in a cynical, socialist attempt to overthrow a right-wing Government.
My point? There are plenty of ways to view her past, her achievements and her failures, but it's not often a death is announced here on PPRuNe only to be followed by posters stepping forward to dissect the deceased life and works. There are about three other recent announcements of this type on the forum at the moment; I wonder why those of you that feel the need seem to think it's OK to pick over Lady T's bones when you wouldn't dream of doing it in the name of others. Maybe it's a time to put your political fanaticisms aside for a moment and think about the good in people, even if it's just for a while. You don't have to jump up and down in salutation, but you might consider how appropriate it is to be so abjectly critical so soon after her death.
Military aircrew and associated personnel forum. Show the appropriate level of respect.
If you really believe that any reasonable politician would deliberately try to destroy British industry then I would suggest that you have been taken in by people with nefarious political ambitions. For example, our coal industry was already unviable and the Trades Unions wanting to increase miners' pay was simply pricing themselves out of an already tenuous market, becoming dominated by countries with resources that were easier to extract and lower labour costs. If she hadn't stood up to Scargill, the outcome would have been no better.
But we all want scapegoats and I am slightly amused that some people are taken in by those all-to-familiar phrases such as, 'This strike is entirely the fault of the Government.' It was entirely the due to the greed and power-seeking Union leaders and the members that were stupid enough to believe in a cynical, socialist attempt to overthrow a right-wing Government.
My point? There are plenty of ways to view her past, her achievements and her failures, but it's not often a death is announced here on PPRuNe only to be followed by posters stepping forward to dissect the deceased life and works. There are about three other recent announcements of this type on the forum at the moment; I wonder why those of you that feel the need seem to think it's OK to pick over Lady T's bones when you wouldn't dream of doing it in the name of others. Maybe it's a time to put your political fanaticisms aside for a moment and think about the good in people, even if it's just for a while. You don't have to jump up and down in salutation, but you might consider how appropriate it is to be so abjectly critical so soon after her death.
Military aircrew and associated personnel forum. Show the appropriate level of respect.
Last edited by Courtney Mil; 9th Apr 2013 at 20:24.
Well said CM.
Well said indeed.
Well said indeed.
CM, I too am happy that what you’ve said is well said and heartfelt. I’m sorry if you’re disappointed at the turn this thread has taken, but for me personally the almost canonisation of Mrs Thatcher was a bit too much to take.
I’m more than happy to accept many of her good points. She was highly intelligent, an Oxford graduate who’d held down a position in industry before entering the fiercely competitive (and largely male) world of politics. This is way more than our current crop of leaders has done. One might consider the Conservative party one of the more chauvinistic parties at the time of her succession to its leadership, but she was still able to become its leader.
I also genuinely believe she had a caring and compassionate side, as I believe she anguished over the injuries and deaths sustained in the Falklands conflict, just as I believe she believed what she was doing to be right. And I do feel a sense of remorse over the passing of a fellow human being.
It’s just that there’s too much else about her time as PM that I really can’t get past, and it would appear from news coverage since yesterday morning that I’m not alone. It would seem in death she is just as capable of polarising opinion as she was when alive and in Government! Maybe that’s not such a bad legacy.
I’m more than happy to accept many of her good points. She was highly intelligent, an Oxford graduate who’d held down a position in industry before entering the fiercely competitive (and largely male) world of politics. This is way more than our current crop of leaders has done. One might consider the Conservative party one of the more chauvinistic parties at the time of her succession to its leadership, but she was still able to become its leader.
I also genuinely believe she had a caring and compassionate side, as I believe she anguished over the injuries and deaths sustained in the Falklands conflict, just as I believe she believed what she was doing to be right. And I do feel a sense of remorse over the passing of a fellow human being.
It’s just that there’s too much else about her time as PM that I really can’t get past, and it would appear from news coverage since yesterday morning that I’m not alone. It would seem in death she is just as capable of polarising opinion as she was when alive and in Government! Maybe that’s not such a bad legacy.
I have no intention of getting into further debate just now, she only died yesterday. And I do recognize that there are plusses and minuses to every life. Alwayslooking up, I am not singling you out here, my comments are broader and my point is a general one. I hope you don't mind me using your last comment there as purely an example.
There are plenty of people about whom I share very similar views. My point was (and I accept that I may not have made it clearly) that we are habitually respectful of the recently deceased in this forum as most of us are sadly accustomed to losing good (and other) people. But unlike fora such as Jet Blast or hundreds of other internet sites, we have a code of respect and a sense of when the time is right to criticise. Do you ever see anyone here react to the announcement, for example, of an Air Force pilot (any air force) by starting to pontificate about their faults. This is no different. Just because she was a public figure, that does not confer on us the right to start offering criticism. Not just yet.
After a respectable period, feel free to start a thread along the lines of "Maggie, was she really that great?" or whatever suits your fancy - as long as it's relevant to this forum.
I don't think I want to say any more on the subject except, again, I am NOT singling you out, Alwayslooking up.
It’s just that there’s too much else about her time as PM that I really can’t get past, and it would appear from news coverage since yesterday morning that I’m not alone. It would seem in death she is just as capable of polarising opinion as she was when alive and in Government! Maybe that’s not such a bad legacy.
After a respectable period, feel free to start a thread along the lines of "Maggie, was she really that great?" or whatever suits your fancy - as long as it's relevant to this forum.
I don't think I want to say any more on the subject except, again, I am NOT singling you out, Alwayslooking up.
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CM and Coff, well said. More than a little bit of thought in your posts. Something that is lacking in the vitriol pouring from others on this thread, which had started with measured and reflective thoughts.
Sad that it is descending into a JB slugfest.
A grandmother and mother has left her children - that is sad, but she doesn't deserve the vile outpourings of hate.
Sad that it is descending into a JB slugfest.
A grandmother and mother has left her children - that is sad, but she doesn't deserve the vile outpourings of hate.
Do you know what, CM, you're perfectly right. As I sit here nursing an evening snifter I realise that even MT, controversial as she was, deserves the common observances and respects in her passing, so I'll post no more, until the future threads appear.
Cough and CM et al
I apologise. I did pause before responding to ALU's revisionist version of history. But as someone who had great respect Mrs T and who believe that what was done, had to be done for the greater benefit of the nation, I couldn't let it go; I should have done.
I have deleted my earlier response and will now bow out of this topic.
I apologise. I did pause before responding to ALU's revisionist version of history. But as someone who had great respect Mrs T and who believe that what was done, had to be done for the greater benefit of the nation, I couldn't let it go; I should have done.
I have deleted my earlier response and will now bow out of this topic.
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Hope you don't mind but I borrowed some of your facts to confront another of the "P**s on her grave" brigade on a social website we all know. B******s - every on of them. CB
PS ALU - well retracted; much respect to you for that.CB
PS ALU - well retracted; much respect to you for that.CB
Last edited by Canadian Break; 9th Apr 2013 at 19:08.
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I go along with the recent posts. Tonight I had the odd libation in my local, which attracts a variety of opinions, from across the spectrum. The vocal atmosphere was noticeably subdued from previous rhetoric in that the one or two who would previously 'dance on her grave' were less vitriolic. Probably because the majority lamented the passing of Lady Thatcher, but possibly as they had a decent and latent conscience. Either way, it seemed to me that whatever their views of the Lady, they very reluctantly admired her quest to preserve our Country's stature.
Subsequent so-called 'leaders' fall way short.
Subsequent so-called 'leaders' fall way short.
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I am appalled at the parties last night celebrating her passing. Smashed windows in Brixton etc.
It probably says more about the people doing it, similarly Facebook posts. Many are awful.
A leader makes decisions, therefore mistakes. A leader will please one section and piss off another. That is the nature of leadership.
The alternative is sit on the fence, no decision, no mistakes.
Nothing gets done and everybody is pissed off.
It is better to have a decisive leader with all the faults, and successes.
R.I.P. Lady T.
It probably says more about the people doing it, similarly Facebook posts. Many are awful.
A leader makes decisions, therefore mistakes. A leader will please one section and piss off another. That is the nature of leadership.
The alternative is sit on the fence, no decision, no mistakes.
Nothing gets done and everybody is pissed off.
It is better to have a decisive leader with all the faults, and successes.
R.I.P. Lady T.
Last edited by Stuffy; 9th Apr 2013 at 19:25.
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I wish the "put my foot in my mouth brigade" would take a step back and think what they are doing, how would they feel if someone turned up at their family funeral laughing and creating a scene or wrote disgusting comments online when they hear of their death, when that person is no longer able to fight back.
Common courtesy and respect is a trait that is obviously lacking in some folks and I cannot believe that the detritus has leeched over from JB to here.
One would prefer if you haven't the common decency to say something respectful, you would simply keep quiet.
Common courtesy and respect is a trait that is obviously lacking in some folks and I cannot believe that the detritus has leeched over from JB to here.
One would prefer if you haven't the common decency to say something respectful, you would simply keep quiet.
Last edited by NutLoose; 9th Apr 2013 at 19:50.
Courtney Mil
I believe that you speak for many, many who post on the Mil Aircrew thread (please excuse my non aircrew status). Like Churchill before her Prime Minister Thatcher was the right person (to help the nation) in a time of deepest need. It's certainly a shame that most of the "numpties" on the streets today weren't even a twinkle in their dads eyes when the Lady was in power. She, as a conviction politician, brought our country through some dire times. People readily forget that it was Scargill who declared "war" on Thatcherism, and not the reverse. But how easy it is to deny facts that are easily confirmed or otherwise. I applaud your views sir, echo them and would fight anyone for your right to hold the opinions you have.
Nil Illigitimi carborundum
Smudge
I believe that you speak for many, many who post on the Mil Aircrew thread (please excuse my non aircrew status). Like Churchill before her Prime Minister Thatcher was the right person (to help the nation) in a time of deepest need. It's certainly a shame that most of the "numpties" on the streets today weren't even a twinkle in their dads eyes when the Lady was in power. She, as a conviction politician, brought our country through some dire times. People readily forget that it was Scargill who declared "war" on Thatcherism, and not the reverse. But how easy it is to deny facts that are easily confirmed or otherwise. I applaud your views sir, echo them and would fight anyone for your right to hold the opinions you have.
Nil Illigitimi carborundum
Smudge