The blessed Margaret ..
Well, I was born in 1972 as opposed to 287BC (or, in fact, 1861, which is the DoB of the 'Archimedes' I stole my name from), so one would hope that I'm obviously not Archimedes.
I am a political historian, though, so can give you about 435 pages explaining why the material you posted is utterly wrong - I don't recall me criticising the view expressed either, merely the wild, vicarious inaccuracy of the supporting material and those who've generated it (I assume that it isn't you who's come up with that).
Edit - for clarity, this was a response to a post from PP which has now disappeared...
I am a political historian, though, so can give you about 435 pages explaining why the material you posted is utterly wrong - I don't recall me criticising the view expressed either, merely the wild, vicarious inaccuracy of the supporting material and those who've generated it (I assume that it isn't you who's come up with that).
Edit - for clarity, this was a response to a post from PP which has now disappeared...
Last edited by Archimedes; 12th Apr 2013 at 09:15.
Pious Pilot,
I like to think that my 33 years military service have partly been spent supporting the ability of people like you to express a view significantly different to the vast majority - without being attacked for your beliefs.
However, rude language and your timing are both highly inappropriate on this particular thread.
For those old enough to actually experience living in the 70's, Britain was a 'sinking ship' with our elected leadership totally unable to stop the rot and struggling with bankruptcy and lack of productivity amongst many other ills.
Although painful to many, Maggie took on the leadership of the country and quite simply saved the nation. Comments like:
could be expanded to read:
In order to improve the long term life of 60 million people, Thatcher took direct action that unfortunately impacted adversely on several communities. As painful as it was for many, lack of action would have seen the UK continue to slip down into Third World status.
This is not the place to expand on the whole raft of good things she did for the UK. Suffice to say, her overall level of impact for the benefit of Britain was recognised by the House yesterday and her unique funeral arrangements for next week are a reflection of her importance to the survival of Britain.
R.I.P Maggie T
I like to think that my 33 years military service have partly been spent supporting the ability of people like you to express a view significantly different to the vast majority - without being attacked for your beliefs.
However, rude language and your timing are both highly inappropriate on this particular thread.
For those old enough to actually experience living in the 70's, Britain was a 'sinking ship' with our elected leadership totally unable to stop the rot and struggling with bankruptcy and lack of productivity amongst many other ills.
Although painful to many, Maggie took on the leadership of the country and quite simply saved the nation. Comments like:
I'd argue it's to improve life, not ruin it for millions.
In order to improve the long term life of 60 million people, Thatcher took direct action that unfortunately impacted adversely on several communities. As painful as it was for many, lack of action would have seen the UK continue to slip down into Third World status.
This is not the place to expand on the whole raft of good things she did for the UK. Suffice to say, her overall level of impact for the benefit of Britain was recognised by the House yesterday and her unique funeral arrangements for next week are a reflection of her importance to the survival of Britain.
R.I.P Maggie T
it matters what she did to millions of working class people
PP,
“If someone is deeply religious and visibly follows all the moral and ethical codes of his religion, he is pious.”
An interesting religion who's moral and ethical codes include openly and callously speaking ill of the recently deceased, the use of inappropriate language in public and repeatedly incites Satan.
You claim to be 30 something. Time to grow up, fella.
“If someone is deeply religious and visibly follows all the moral and ethical codes of his religion, he is pious.”
An interesting religion who's moral and ethical codes include openly and callously speaking ill of the recently deceased, the use of inappropriate language in public and repeatedly incites Satan.
You claim to be 30 something. Time to grow up, fella.
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Animal
I agree with much of what you say - it was necessary, it was - the problem was that while "Thatcher took direct action that unfortunately impacted adversely on several communities." she never seemed to realise or care what the effects were
I think that's why so many people find it hard to forgive her
I agree with much of what you say - it was necessary, it was - the problem was that while "Thatcher took direct action that unfortunately impacted adversely on several communities." she never seemed to realise or care what the effects were
I think that's why so many people find it hard to forgive her
THIS THREAD is primarily for those who are grateful to Baroness Thatcher.
THIS THREAD has seen a reasonable debate about her virtues and shortcomings [although there are those of us who believe that should wait until after next Wednesday, on the grounds of good manners]
THIS THREAD has managed until recently to avoid visits to the gutter.
OTHER THREADS will happily accommodate those who wish to denigrate our greatest peace-time leader.
On Wednesday my large Union Flag will be at half mast and draped in black. We will never see her like again.
As an aside, my opinion is that those who did not have to live through the 1970s simply cannot know what life was like in the UK: those who could avoid it, avoided it, by overseas tours, even if they were very ill-paid.
THIS THREAD has seen a reasonable debate about her virtues and shortcomings [although there are those of us who believe that should wait until after next Wednesday, on the grounds of good manners]
THIS THREAD has managed until recently to avoid visits to the gutter.
OTHER THREADS will happily accommodate those who wish to denigrate our greatest peace-time leader.
On Wednesday my large Union Flag will be at half mast and draped in black. We will never see her like again.
As an aside, my opinion is that those who did not have to live through the 1970s simply cannot know what life was like in the UK: those who could avoid it, avoided it, by overseas tours, even if they were very ill-paid.
Well said, LB and Roland. 
So wrong. I think it hurt her very deeply. She just wasn't one to show her emotions in public. One thing that has come out in the past couple of days is how caring she really was.
Originally Posted by HH
she never seemed to realise or care what the effects were
Last edited by Courtney Mil; 11th Apr 2013 at 13:40.
Originally Posted by HH
she never seemed to realise or care what the effects were
she never seemed to realise or care what the effects were
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Compassion
Last comment from me on this. I happened to catch the tail end of the Chris Evans' morning radio show the day after Lady T died. His pause for thought slot was filled by a woman who stated openly that she was no fan of the late PM. However, rather than jump on the anti-Thatcher bandwagon she chose, instead, to briefly discuss the regular occasions that she would "bump" into Maggie - in the Hospice in her constituency, and warmly talked of the compassion that Maggie showed to those in there: "laughing, joking and listening" - and generally brightening up the lives of those whose days were numbered - not heard that from anyone of those who say what a hard hearted b***h she was have we?. Perhaps that is a fitting note to end on?
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I have to admit to being stunned at some of the things being said about the Lady and the so-called party in George Sq in Glasgow was shamelessness at its utter worst.
When in power, Margaret Thatcher did what had to be done and thank God she did otherwise those who now see fit to speak as if they are experts would not have it as easy as they do.
The UK needed her and she rose to the challenge, bless her. My own personal thoughts are that she knew full well that she was sacrificing her popularity with many for the greater good of us all.
I'm proud to say that my military career led to my meeting her once when she was PM. And just how bad could her premiership really have been considering she was re-elected twice?
RIP Mrs Thatcher
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When in power, Margaret Thatcher did what had to be done and thank God she did otherwise those who now see fit to speak as if they are experts would not have it as easy as they do.
The UK needed her and she rose to the challenge, bless her. My own personal thoughts are that she knew full well that she was sacrificing her popularity with many for the greater good of us all.
I'm proud to say that my military career led to my meeting her once when she was PM. And just how bad could her premiership really have been considering she was re-elected twice?
RIP Mrs Thatcher
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Red On, Green On
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Even in 1982 she was still a politician at heart.
Some will know that the boys from Hereford who were observing the enemy positions were having problems transmitting their recce reports as they didn't have suitable kit.
Pere Artist was a dark blue communicator by trade, the most recent Captain of Endurance ashore and by a remarkable coincidence had been appointed the Deputy Director of Operations (Rest of the World) in the central staff of the MoD on leaving Endurance. As such he was directly involved from the outset. He was rung up one Saturday to be told of the South Georgia landings and next came home on the day of the San Carlos landings.
I was a very wet-behind-the-ears but badged member of the London-based part-time regiment. We had suitable comms kit (due to our role working for 1 BR Corps) which had just been introduced to the two TA regiments. My Selection intake had gone straight to the basic comms course and were the first to be trained on it.
Our comms skills and kit would have solved the problem (which was so severe that pinger SKs were picking up hand-written reports by night). The solution that Pere Artist had staffed went to the PM.
She dismissed it. There was no way she was mobilising a couple of dozen TA soldiers when there were >300,000 regulars across the three Services. She was acutely aware that if the news got out that there was a problem that could only be solved by TA soldiers it would cause political damage, of which she had enough already.
My father never told my mother that he'd recommended I went to war
Some will know that the boys from Hereford who were observing the enemy positions were having problems transmitting their recce reports as they didn't have suitable kit.
Pere Artist was a dark blue communicator by trade, the most recent Captain of Endurance ashore and by a remarkable coincidence had been appointed the Deputy Director of Operations (Rest of the World) in the central staff of the MoD on leaving Endurance. As such he was directly involved from the outset. He was rung up one Saturday to be told of the South Georgia landings and next came home on the day of the San Carlos landings.
I was a very wet-behind-the-ears but badged member of the London-based part-time regiment. We had suitable comms kit (due to our role working for 1 BR Corps) which had just been introduced to the two TA regiments. My Selection intake had gone straight to the basic comms course and were the first to be trained on it.
Our comms skills and kit would have solved the problem (which was so severe that pinger SKs were picking up hand-written reports by night). The solution that Pere Artist had staffed went to the PM.
She dismissed it. There was no way she was mobilising a couple of dozen TA soldiers when there were >300,000 regulars across the three Services. She was acutely aware that if the news got out that there was a problem that could only be solved by TA soldiers it would cause political damage, of which she had enough already.
My father never told my mother that he'd recommended I went to war
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She was a politician, just the same as all the others before her and after.. Winning elections was what she was in politics for and realistically most people couldn't stand the alternative..
Maggie didn't regain the Falklands, the British Military did... Her Government sent them because they didn't have any choice if they were going to survive.
Roll on Thursday.
Maggie didn't regain the Falklands, the British Military did... Her Government sent them because they didn't have any choice if they were going to survive.
Roll on Thursday.
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Langleybaston
Ref your post #206
I agree with almost all you say, but hope you are wrong about us not seeing her like again.
Ref your post #206
I agree with almost all you say, but hope you are wrong about us not seeing her like again.
One does wonder how this younger Generation of rioters and those celebrating her death but who never lived through the 70's would get on with waking up to the lights, heating, cooking and power on only three days a week...
All those dead uncharged smartphones, no xboxes, Internet, PS3's... It's easy to imagine it, but a totally different ball game to live through it.
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Ratman
I think you are wrong, though I understand why your opinion of politicians is so cynical. I think Maggie was that rare creature, an honest politician. She had a clear vision, strong convictions and the courage and strength to go for what she believed, however unpopular. Oh that we had more like her. RIP Maggie T.
I think you are wrong, though I understand why your opinion of politicians is so cynical. I think Maggie was that rare creature, an honest politician. She had a clear vision, strong convictions and the courage and strength to go for what she believed, however unpopular. Oh that we had more like her. RIP Maggie T.
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One persons strong convictions can be taken by others as being pigheaded. Sir Geffory Howe having his cricket bat being burned??
I love Marmite, never thought much of Maggie, never thought much of Grantham and she really should have taught her son right from wrong.. Or was that right from left.. Sorry, bad attempt at some humour!!
I love Marmite, never thought much of Maggie, never thought much of Grantham and she really should have taught her son right from wrong.. Or was that right from left.. Sorry, bad attempt at some humour!!
Not quite enough....
Can we think back to the very recent past and the Labour Party leadership election? perhaps there are still some faint echos of the past that hold some lessons for those who are now condemning Mrs T..
Under Labour's electoral college voting system and not having learned the lessons of Maggie's reforms, David Milliband won a majority of support from Labour's MPs at Westminster and party members. But Ed was ahead among members of trade unions and affiliated organisations in
Bear in mind that the vote of each MP can at least be taken to represent the many thousands of thier constituents who voted for them:
Final Votes: David Milliband Ed Milliband
MPs: 140 122
Party Members: 66,814 55,992
Affiliated Unions: 80,266 119,405
So the Unions were once again Kingmakers and stuff the popular vote!
Magnify that kind of 'holding the voters to ransom' by 10,000 and you have some idea of the situation at the end of the seventies
Give them an inch and they will take a mile.
Mrs T was right back then, and she's still right
Can we think back to the very recent past and the Labour Party leadership election? perhaps there are still some faint echos of the past that hold some lessons for those who are now condemning Mrs T..
Under Labour's electoral college voting system and not having learned the lessons of Maggie's reforms, David Milliband won a majority of support from Labour's MPs at Westminster and party members. But Ed was ahead among members of trade unions and affiliated organisations in
Bear in mind that the vote of each MP can at least be taken to represent the many thousands of thier constituents who voted for them:
Final Votes: David Milliband Ed Milliband
MPs: 140 122
Party Members: 66,814 55,992
Affiliated Unions: 80,266 119,405
So the Unions were once again Kingmakers and stuff the popular vote!
Magnify that kind of 'holding the voters to ransom' by 10,000 and you have some idea of the situation at the end of the seventies
Give them an inch and they will take a mile.
Mrs T was right back then, and she's still right